Yes, postal money orders do require bank endorsements!

[Jean Ceulemans]

I would like to know how it was possible for Harold Marks to take the MO to his private home ?  Next he makes a phone call : hi guys, I have it here, come and get it....

Really ?  

By the time an agent got to it, it was certainly not where it was found

Taking a piece from the official banking/postal archives to your private home ?

Yes it was late in the evening, so what ?  He couldn't wait 30 minutes and really had to go home ???

If that's ok to do, I guess anything goes.

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Steve Roe]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

And just never you mind that Oswald supposedly somehow bought the money order for the mail-order rifle at a post office while he was actually at work (and the TSBD required that timesheets agree with the clock-registered times). 

You're mistaken again. First of all, it was JCS, not TSBD. JCS did not have a punch clock timecard, like Reilly Coffee or Leslie Welding. The "clock-registered" time on the handwritten job timesheet refers to the actual times entered on each job, I.E 9:15 to 10:00 (Sam Bloom), 10:00 to 10:15 (Sears) for example.  Each job had to agree in sequence so they could payroll can account accurately what to pay the employee. 

Oswald could have very easily fudged his written timesheet. From the GPO to JCS was only a 15-minute walk. 

[Greg Doudna]

37 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

You're mistaken again. First of all, it was JCS, not TSBD. JCS did not have a punch clock timecard, like Reilly Coffee or Leslie Welding. The "clock-registered" time on the handwritten job timesheet refers to the actual times entered on each job, I.E 9:15 to 10:00 (Sam Bloom), 10:00 to 10:15 (Sears) for example.  Each job had to agree in sequence so they could payroll can account accurately what to pay the employee. 

Oswald could have very easily fudged his written timesheet. From the GPO to JCS was only a 15-minute walk. 

Yes! I spent no end of time researching opening times of U.S. post offices, calculating times and distances, puzzling over that, all on the unquestioned premise that those handwritten time notations at Jaggars were hard proof Oswald was there without leaving after 9:00 on a morning when he bought and mailed a postal money order at the main post office which only opened at 9:00 am.

But the premise was not hard (as in “known secure”). 

What is hard is that money order was bought, signed by Oswald, and mailed that morning after the post office opened for business at 9:00 am.

Those Jaggars handwritten time records probably were filled in by Oswald himself and did not disclose time off the books for a personal unnoticed errand which there is evidence occurred that morning. Every mistake or puzzle peeled away is closer to ability to get at what did happen. Thanks Steve.

[Marcus Fuller]

3 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Oswald could have very easily fudged his written timesheet. From the GPO to JCS was only a 15-minute walk. 

I'm pretty sure his boss confirmed that he was at work that day and corroborated what the time sheet said

[Steve Roe]

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Yes! I spent no end of time researching opening times of U.S. post offices, calculating times and distances, puzzling over that, all on the unquestioned premise that those handwritten time notations at Jaggars were hard proof Oswald was there without leaving after 9:00 on a morning when he bought and mailed a postal money order at the main post office which only opened at 9:00 am.

But the premise was not hard (as in “known secure”). 

What is hard is that money order was bought, signed by Oswald, and mailed that morning after the post office opened for business at 9:00 am.

Those Jaggars handwritten time records probably were filled in by Oswald himself and did not disclose time off the books for a personal unnoticed errand which there is evidence occurred that morning. Every mistake or puzzle peeled away is closer to ability to get at what did happen. Thanks Steve.

Greg, actually the front window at the GPO was open at 8:00 AM.

VOLUME II: HSCA REVIEW AT HQ - OSWALD CHRONOLOGY (maryferrell.org)

This was consistent with my research on the GPO front window counter over the years in old newspaper accounts. That was a busy post office roughly 1/2 mile away from JCS on Browder Street. Oswald often walked on Ervay street to his post office box from his JCS work. You can find that in Dennis Ofstein's WC testimony.

[Steve Roe]

52 minutes ago, Marcus Fuller said:

I'm pretty sure his boss confirmed that he was at work that day and corroborated what the time sheet said

Sure, he was at work on March 12th. He got paid for it. I'm impressed with your mind reading skills on his boss confirming he showed up at 08:00 sharp. Nothing in the record says that. 

[Greg Doudna]

26 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Greg, actually the front window at the GPO was open at 8:00 AM.

VOLUME II: HSCA REVIEW AT HQ - OSWALD CHRONOLOGY (maryferrell.org)

This was consistent with my research on the GPO front window counter over the years in old newspaper accounts. That was a busy post office roughly 1/2 mile away from JCS on Browder Street. Oswald often walked on Ervay street to his post office box from his JCS work. You can find that in Dennis Ofstein's WC testimony.

I see, I was going from memory, thanks Steve. 

[Jean Ceulemans]

35 minutes ago, Steve Roe said:

Greg, actually the front window at the GPO was open at 8:00 AM.

VOLUME II: HSCA REVIEW AT HQ - OSWALD CHRONOLOGY (maryferrell.org)

This was consistent with my research on the GPO front window counter over the years in old newspaper accounts. That was a busy post office roughly 1/2 mile away from JCS on Browder Street. Oswald often walked on Ervay street to his post office box from his JCS work. You can find that in Dennis Ofstein's WC testimony.

Anyone out there that has a link where I can download these volumes (HSCA Oswald Chronologies)

I used to have a "paid for" acces so I could download stuff but not any longer

I have looked for it, but likely not in the right places

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Oh yeah, of course. It's only "sensible and reasonable" to believe that instead of just going to a local gun store, buying a rifle, and leaving no paper trail, Oswald, who was highly intelligent, decided to order a rifle by mail so that it could be traced back to him. Moreover, we are asked to believe, he even had Marina take pictures of him holding that mail-order rifle, and, to top it off, he informed the police that his belongings were in Ruth Paine's garage, apparently not caring that the police might find the backyard rifle pictures! Oh, yeah, that makes total sense. Entirely logical and reasonable. You bet. 

And just never you mind that Oswald supposedly somehow bought the money order for the mail-order rifle at a post office while he was actually at work (and the TSBD required that timesheets agree with the clock-registered times). 

And just never you mind that not a single round of ammo and not a single piece of gun-cleaning equipment (pull-through cord or metal pole, cotton swabs, oil, small brush, etc.) were found among Oswald's possessions. Gee, one would almost surmise from these facts that he didn't own a rifle or that he never used it.

And just never you mind that the only two gun stores in the Dallas area that sold ammo suitable for the Carcano rifle both insisted that Oswald had never been a customer. And, again, not a single bullet was found among Oswald's possessions. 

Nah, never mind all that.

 

Exactly Mike.

And never mind that the backyard photos show the gun sling mounted in the wrong place. (Side instead of bottom, or vice versa, I forget which.)

And never mind that there was no gunshot residue on Oswald's cheek, something that always happens when firing a rifle, I believe. (Granted, this goes to the alleged firing of the gun on 11/22, not owning it.)

And never mind that the FBI found no hand prints on the gun.

Never mind that the gun purchase transaction was completed at neck-breaking speed. (Completed in like a day and a half? Something like that.) Pretty damned fast for a mail order purchase.

The fact that the postal money order had no bank stamps doesn't prove that it was not processed. But it is good evidence that it wasn't, and helps corroborate the other evidence that the Carcano wasn't Oswald's gun.

 

[Michael Griffith]

8 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I don’t think any of these other issues you raise Michael Griffith are relevant to the interpretation of the Kleins money order’s lack of a bank stamp. 

But, distinct question and issue, yes I think Oswald had the rifle. Both Marguerite and Marina testified that on Nov 22 Marina showed Marguerite a photo or photos of Oswald holding a rifle which sounds like BYP, and that Marina concealed it or them in her shoe. The next day both Marguerite and Marina testified Marina destroyed it or them by fire in a hotel room at Marguerite’s urging. I think that weighs in favor of the BYPs existing. The BYPs held up to forensic examination by the HSCA panel of experts which could not find evidence of forgery or alteration.

I don’t know why he did it by mail order and alias instead of an in person purchase but he was witnessed interested in mail order advertisements of rifles in New Orleans as well, and a lot of researchers have conjectured his mail ordering could have involved informant activity. 

The lack of ammo or rifle cleaning equipment found in Oswald’s belongings, and separately, lack of any recent practicing, with the rifle prior to Nov 22 I believe is weight against him shooting JFK on Nov 22, distinct issue. It also—this is less noticed—is weight to me weakening notions of widespread evidence fabrication since ammo would have been planted in Oswald’s belongings if so. 

I don’t know why Oswald was lying about having that rifle or mail ordering it when interrogated. It’s what a defense counsel would say was not helpful to his case. But that doesn’t prove he shot the rifle which is a distinct issue and some pretty compelling evidence argues he didn’t. 

I think my paper on Oswald repairing and reinstalling the crappy original scope and base mount on the rifle on Nov 11 at the sport shop in Irving has brought new information and finding of fact to the table which simply must be considered and integrated in any interpretation proposing to solve the case, missed in most prior discussions. 

But again, none of those things have anything—anything—to do with the specific and answerable narrow question of whether the lack of a bank stamp on the back of the Kleins money order indicates or establishes that that money order was never processed for payment.

I was responding to DVP's odd, illogical comment to Sandy that any sensible, reasonable person would have to believe that Oswald bought the mail-order rifle. 

I doubt that Oswald had the rifle or that he ordered it. I'm inclined to believe his denials on those issues. His denials make sense. The idea that he was foolish enough to order a rifle by mail, and was also unbelievably stupid enough to have himself photographed holding it, strikes me as unlikely and illogical. 

Regarding the HSCA experts' examination of the backyard rifle photos, they ignored clear signs of forgery and omitted key evidence from their exhibits and analyses, as I discuss in The HSCA and Fraud in the Backyard Rifle Photos.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

I was responding to DVP's odd, illogical comment to Sandy that any sensible, reasonable person would have to believe that Oswald bought the mail-order rifle. 

So what you're really saying is that you think it's odd to actually follow the evidence to where it actually leads.

Because in order for Oswald NOT to have ordered the rifle, all of the paperwork relating to the Klein's order must have been faked by unknown/unseen plotters. And I'm supposed to think that THAT kind of "wholesale fakery" notion is a MORE reasonable and sensible theory than the simple belief that has LHO really ordering the gun from Klein's?

Talk about oddball reasoning. That takes the cake.

--------------

"Despite over forty years of allegations by Mark Lane and other conspiracy theorists, if there is one thing even a child should walk away from this case knowing for sure, it's that only one rifle was found in the Texas School Book Depository and that rifle, a Mannlicher-Carcano, serial number C2766, was bought and paid for by Lee Harvey Oswald." -- Vincent Bugliosi

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Jim Hargrove]

Would anyone like to review the actual evidence?

Here is the unchashed, unendorsed US Postal Money Order the Warren Commission wanted us to believe was used by "Lee Harvey Oswald" to purchase the rifle that allegedly killed JFK.  Note that all the initials in the area reserved for bank endorsements were made by FBI agents.  This was intended to confuse us, but did it?

 

[James DiEugenio]

According to the time cards was not Oswald at work all that morning and was he not working on several assignments up until noon? He began at 8 am.

And BTW, in Armstrong's book, published in 2003, he says that the postoffice opened at 8 am. (p. 450)

That is not the problem.  The problem is the records.

DVP was going to try and get around this by saying the postoffice opened at 7. 

There goes that one.

[James DiEugenio]

For the life of me, I do not know why we are talking about this.

This went on for weeks back then and the arguments were so clear: the evidence does not back up Oswald ordering that rifle.

Why are we doing this all over?

[David Von Pein]

6 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

This went on for weeks back then and the arguments were so clear: the evidence does not back up Oswald ordering that rifle.

Why are we doing this all over?

As if you (i.e., "we") are being forced to click on this and read it all again.

SMH

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by David Von Pein