Yes, postal money orders do require bank endorsements!

[Jean Ceulemans]

On 12/7/2023 at 2:45 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Would anyone like to review the actual evidence?

Here is the unchashed, unendorsed US Postal Money Order the Warren Commission wanted us to believe was used by "Lee Harvey Oswald" to purchase the rifle that allegedly killed JFK.  Note that all the initials in the area reserved for bank endorsements were made by FBI agents.  This was intended to confuse us, but did it?

 

1) The full story on how and WHERE it was found is also interesting IMO  The agents picked it up at a private address, if that is not a concern, I don't know what is (excerpt attached).   Link to the full story on how it was found :

 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=120&search=harold_AND marks

2) Back on topic, I do believe it had to be endorsed, how would the clearing know otherwise  ?  It is both a security question as a practical one.  AFAIK the mass endorsing was done by machines, not individual stamping at that point in the process   

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Michael Griffith]

20 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

You're mistaken again. First of all, it was JCS, not TSBD. JCS did not have a punch clock timecard, like Reilly Coffee or Leslie Welding. The "clock-registered" time on the handwritten job timesheet refers to the actual times entered on each job, I.E 9:15 to 10:00 (Sam Bloom), 10:00 to 10:15 (Sears) for example.  Each job had to agree in sequence so they could payroll can account accurately what to pay the employee. 

Oswald could have very easily fudged his written timesheet. From the GPO to JCS was only a 15-minute walk. 

The money order was purchased on March 12, so, yes, I should have said JCS, not TSBD. 

Now, the post office did not open until 8:00 AM. Oswald's timesheet shows that he checked in by 8:00 AM. The trip to the post office would have taken him at least 30 minutes--15 minutes there and 15 minutes back equals 30 minutes, and that's assuming he did not have to wait in line and assuming that the purchase transaction took only a minute or two. A 30-minute timesheet fudge is quite a fudge. 

[Steve Roe]

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

The money order was purchased on March 12, so, yes, I should have said JCS, not TSBD. 

Now, the post office did not open until 8:00 AM. Oswald's timesheet shows that he checked in by 8:00 AM. The trip to the post office would have taken him at least 30 minutes--15 minutes there and 15 minutes back equals 30 minutes, and that's assuming he did not have to wait in line and assuming that the purchase transaction took only a minute or two. A 30-minute timesheet fudge is quite a fudge. 

Extremely unlikely. That makes zero sense. Most likely he caught the bus, got off on Ervay from Elm Street, went to the post office first, then either walked or caught a quick hop on the south bound Ervay bus near Browder Street and walked into work. Easier to fudge 15 minutes than 30 minutes. Will we ever know? Nope, not the first time Oswald lied in his life. 

[Michael Griffith]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

The money order was purchased on March 12, so, yes, I should have said JCS, not TSBD. 

Now, the post office did not open until 8:00 AM. Oswald's timesheet shows that he checked in by 8:00 AM. The trip to the post office would have taken him at least 30 minutes--15 minutes there and 15 minutes back equals 30 minutes, and that's assuming he did not have to wait in line and assuming that the purchase transaction took only a minute or two. A 30-minute timesheet fudge is quite a fudge. 

Now, of course, if one assumes that Oswald went straight to the post office before going to work, that would have put him at work at around 8:17, assuming he was first in line at the post office and that the money-order purchase only took two minutes. 17 minutes is still a significant timesheet fudge, and showing up 17 minutes late would likely have been noticed by someone at his work. 

Moreover, there is the thorny problem of how Oswald could have afforded to spend $21.45 on a mail-order rifle when he only had $16 to spend. In the seven weeks before he bought the money order for the rifle, he finished paying the $396 balance that he owed the State Department. State Department records show that his debt was cleared on March 9, three days before he bought the $21.45 money order ($205 in today's dollars, no small amount). But during those seven weeks, Oswald only made $490, and his rent alone was $68, leaving him only $16 to provide for his family (Anthony Summers, Not in Your Lifetime, pp. 193-194). So how could he have paid for a $21.45 money order with $16? How did he and his family eat and pay their other bills during those seven weeks?

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

1) The full story on how and WHERE it was found is also interesting IMO  The agents picked it up at a private address, if that is not a concern, I don't know what is (excerpt attached).   Link to the full story on how it was found :

 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=120&search=harold_AND marks

2) Back on topic, I do believe it had to be endorsed, how would the clearing know otherwise  ?  It is both a security question as a practical one.  AFAIK the mass endorsing was done by machines, not individual stamping at that point in the process   

 

Well that's new to me. Very interesting Jean. I wish an LNer would address that.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

Moreover, there is the thorny problem of how Oswald could have afforded to spend $21.45 on a mail-order rifle when he only had $16 to spend. In the seven weeks before he bought the money order for the rifle, he finished paying the $396 balance that he owed the State Department. State Department records show that his debt was cleared on March 9, three days before he bought the $21.45 money order ($205 in today's dollars, no small amount). But during those seven weeks, Oswald only made $490, and his rent alone was $68, leaving him only $16 to provide for his family (Anthony Summers, Not in Your Lifetime, pp. 193-194). So how could he have paid for a $21.45 money order with $16? How did he and his family eat and pay their other bills during those seven weeks?

 

Nice analysis, Mike.

 

[Marcus Fuller]

20 hours ago, Steve Roe said:

Sure, he was at work on March 12th. He got paid for it. I'm impressed with your mind reading skills on his boss confirming he showed up at 08:00 sharp. Nothing in the record says that. 

My mind reading skills are only surpassed by your conjecturing skills. Because assuming he went to the post office for 8am, got served straight away because it wasn't busy, then got to work without anyone noticing by 8.15am is a much larger leap! 

[Sandy Larsen]

15 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Would anyone like to review the actual evidence?

Here is the unchashed, unendorsed US Postal Money Order the Warren Commission wanted us to believe was used by "Lee Harvey Oswald" to purchase the rifle that allegedly killed JFK.  Note that all the initials in the area reserved for bank endorsements were made by FBI agents.  This was intended to confuse us, but did it?

 

 

Hi Jim, good to see you!

 

[Greg Doudna]

21 minutes ago, Marcus Fuller said:

My mind reading skills are only surpassed by your conjecturing skills. Because assuming he went to the post office for 8am, got served straight away because it wasn't busy, then got to work without anyone noticing by 8.15am is a much larger leap! 

Well he was fired soon thereafter.

How do you know it wasn't noticed?

[Marcus Fuller]

13 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

Well he was fired soon thereafter.

How do you know it wasn't noticed?

I don't, but his boss did say he was always punctual. From what I understand it was because despite trying he wasn't able to do the job to the proper standard and everyone there thought he was a bit of a d**k lol. I was just making the point that if we can't suggest that his timesheet showed he was in work that day from 8am, we certainly can't suggest what he may or may not have done regarding a pre-work visit to the post office.  

[Steve Roe]

On 12/7/2023 at 10:19 AM, Michael Griffith said:

Now, of course, if one assumes that Oswald went straight to the post office before going to work, that would have put him at work at around 8:17, assuming he was first in line at the post office and that the money-order purchase only took two minutes. 17 minutes is still a significant timesheet fudge, and showing up 17 minutes late would likely have been noticed by someone at his work. 

Moreover, there is the thorny problem of how Oswald could have afforded to spend $21.45 on a mail-order rifle when he only had $16 to spend. In the seven weeks before he bought the money order for the rifle, he finished paying the $396 balance that he owed the State Department. State Department records show that his debt was cleared on March 9, three days before he bought the $21.45 money order ($205 in today's dollars, no small amount). But during those seven weeks, Oswald only made $490, and his rent alone was $68, leaving him only $16 to provide for his family (Anthony Summers, Not in Your Lifetime, pp. 193-194). So how could he have paid for a $21.45 money order with $16? How did he and his family eat and pay their other bills during those seven weeks?

Michael, let me understand your position here. Are you claiming that Oswald never bought that Klein's money order, never received the Carcano addressed to his post office box and never had possession of that rifle? 

Or are you just considering this theory as a possibility?

I know you are quoting Anthony Summer's claim that he had doubts that Oswald had the money to buy the rifle. I read that passage to confirm, but his footnotes I couldn't find listed in his book. Perhaps you have the footnotes in yours. 

However, if you read through this WC document detailing Oswald's finances, you can clearly see he did have available money to buy that money order.

 Warren Commission Report (maryferrell.org)

Additionally, he did pay off his State Department Loan ($200 loan from his brother) with money orders. All in the record.

Also factor in members of the so-called Dallas White Russian community assisted the Oswalds with food and clothing. 

Bottom line, sure he had the available cash to buy that Klein's money order. 

You can scroll back in previous months to see as well. 

Edited December 8, 2023 by Steve Roe
Add additional information

[Jean Ceulemans]

On 12/7/2023 at 2:45 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Would anyone like to review the actual evidence?

Here is the unchashed, unendorsed US Postal Money Order the Warren Commission wanted us to believe was used by "Lee Harvey Oswald" to purchase the rifle that allegedly killed JFK.  Note that all the initials in the area reserved for bank endorsements were made by FBI agents.  This was intended to confuse us, but did it?

Reading the report on how they got the PMO into evidence, one has to notice it's very very detailed, they really really made a serious effort, really paid attention to the initials, all the details, the phone-calls they made, it's all there and more, it's one of the most detailed reports I have seen in this case....   well...  that is... euhhh...   for a PMO that was handed over to an agent over the other guys kitchen table..., not in the Archives....   

So he finds a very important piece of evidence in the killing of the President, puts it in his pocket and drives home.   Did he want to show it to his wife first ?!?

Edited December 8, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[David Josephs]

I've been away -  

The PMO was claimed to be found 3 different times.   Harold Marks... as you mention

Harry Holmes tells the story of finding it, from a STUB that was never produced from a page that would have looked like this:

 

and down below the SS's report of their finding it in Kansas City.

These are my attempts at understanding the circumstances..  with deep history  for each area.  Hope it helps to clarify some thinking and push you along your paths...

DJ

• Part 1: The Klein's Rifle

• Appendix: Money Order Timeline

• Part 2: The Backyard Photos

• Part 3: The Pistol

• Part 4: The Mauser, the Carcano and the Lt. Day Rifle

 

[David Josephs]

And finally... I've written a paper which proves the FBI could not have found C2766 that weekend given the information provided by FELDSOTT...   and is documented within FBI reports from that weekend 

 

 

[David Josephs]

On 12/6/2023 at 9:05 PM, James DiEugenio said:

For the life of me, I do not know why we are talking about this.

This went on for weeks back then and the arguments were so clear: the evidence does not back up Oswald ordering that rifle.

Why are we doing this all over?

No doubt Jim.  

This is one of the most misunderstood COMPLETE FORGERY in the case.

Where is the rest of the book this comes from ?
Where is the stub connected to the book?  The stub given to the customer?

Books prior to and after this book with the dates of the PMO's?

Do we all understand what HAROLD MARKS and JOHNSON could accomplish at this facility in VA?

If not, you may enjoy the articles I linked to above...  cheers