Great New Movie Spells out the Case for Oswald as Prayer Man

[Ray Mitcham]

So, Ray,

The theory is that the guy in the brown jacket that Baker allegedly saw was a prefabricated, non-existent character, intended to represent Oswald but, fortunately for us, based on old, faulty, mole-hunt-based information that the FBI or CIA had unwittingly furnished to Army Intel or the Dallas Police Department.

--Tommy

Not my theory, Tommy. I just believe that Baker was right with his first affidavit. You are free to believe what you want to believe.

[Thomas Graves]

So, Ray,

The theory is that the guy in the brown jacket that Baker allegedly saw was a prefabricated, non-existent character, intended to represent Oswald but, fortunately for us, based on old, faulty, mole-hunt-based information that the FBI or CIA had unwittingly furnished to Army Intel or the Dallas Police Department.

--Tommy

Not my theory, Tommy. I just believe that Baker was right with his first affidavit. You are free to believe what you want to believe.

Thank you, Ray!

--Tommy

Edited December 11, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Ray Mitcham]

So, Ray,

The theory is that the guy in the brown jacket that Baker allegedly saw was a prefabricated, non-existent character, intended to represent Oswald but, fortunately for us, based on old, faulty, mole-hunt-based information that the FBI or CIA had unwittingly furnished to Army Intel or the Dallas Police Department.

--Tommy

Not my theory, Tommy. I just believe that Baker was right with his first affidavit. You are free to believe what you want to believe.

Thank you, Ray!

--Tommy

My pleasure, Tommy.

[Richard Gilbride]

Tommy,

Oswald returned to the 2nd-floor lunchroom from the front landing (PrayerMan). He had recently beforehand been in the lunchroom, posted as a lookout. I think he was a political animal and would not pass up an opportunity to see JFK. And he knew JFK was about to get shot.

It wasn't that big a deal for the success of the conspiracy whether Oswald performed his sentinel duties well or not. I do think there were "two white men"- a failsafe unit- posted on the 1st floor, and maybe Oswald didn't know about them.

But he may have been led to believe he was the failsafe guy. All he'd have to do is watch the landing from the plate-glass window and step out and yell if an intruder came upstairs. Somebody would be listening at the head of the stairs on the 5th or 6th.

Just looking for a plausible reason for him to be PrayerMan, and to be in the lunchroom incident. Just because we don't know it doesn't mean there wasn't one.

[Richard Gilbride]

Ray,

Please re-read post #148. The hoaxers have to address the major contortions needed to get the selected items listed in order to fit them into the "supports-the-hoax" column. I will get to the will-call counter bump, and lack of Biffle corroboration, when I feel less drained. (That's from non-cyberspace beeswax).

Please at least reflect upon the last paragraph of #148. You cannot make the hoax hypothesis work, not at all, when faced down by the aggregate of these contorted items.

We have no a priori reason to say that the 1st-day affidavit trumps all the other lunchroom-related evidence.

[Richard Gilbride]

To whom it may concern.

When they began their dash out of the lobby into the warehouse, Truly unexpectedly found that the will-call counter door was latched shut, and Baker bumped into him. Each man testified about this.

This little incident was superfluous to the main line of action, which was getting to the rear corner, to access the stairs or elevator. Its being superfluous is a very strong indicator that it actually happened.

If this little incident was added into a contrived hoax narrative, what purpose would that serve? Dramatic effect, for added realism? I scoff at that notion. It would only be one more little lie to remember, to help prop up the bigger lie that the whole lunchroom episode was a hoax. Isn't there enough to remember already, for Truly & Baker to prop up?

Or we could suggest that the invisible hand of David Belin crafted T & B's itineraries to the lunchroom, and it was he who thought up the will-call counter bump. But the mini-conspiracy quickly grows to farcical proportions. We have to add the stenographer and everyone else who was present during at least this facet of the testimony. Common sense gets derailed.

The will-call counter bump is a telltale piece of evidence, which validates the numerous points of correspondence in T & B's accounting of their journey to the rear corner. And that validation is a strong indicator that their accounts of their lunchroom journey are also true- they really happened. This latter part of their journey has numerous points of correspondence as well:

1) Truly led the way up the stairs 2) B & O were in the area encompassing the lunchroom doorframe & 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom 3) Baker was facing Oswald 4) Baker asked "Does he work here?" and Truly said "Yes" 5) Baker left immediately 6) Oswald was calm & collected 7) Oswald had no change of expression as Baker's gun was close to him

It might be refreshing to get Kafkaesque here, and wonder whether a Pontiac crashed into the warehouse as they were nearing the elevators. Baker, in an act of pure heroism, pushed Truly to safety, sustaining only minor injuries. Truly rang the service bell, alerting anyone upstairs, a fact which Baker neglected to share in his own account of the event. Truly shouted up the elevator shaft in a desperate plea for assistance.

Suddenly one of the villains tossed a time bomb from the Pontiac, the size of a bowling ball, with a fuse only as long as a cigarette. Truly & Baker fled upstairs. Baker spotted a man's face in a door's insert, and ran that-a-way. Truly, with ears like a bird, and wanting to avoid the approaching high heels, ducked into the vestibule behind Baker...

The indications are very good that Truly & Baker witnessed the same Pontiac crash.

***************************

Biffle has always bothered me. Truly mentioned his presence in his 1st round of testimony (WCH III p. 230), characterizing him as sort of an eager-beaver young reporter on the 6th who overheard Truly's murmuring to Fritz about Oswald. And then elaborating in his 2nd round of testimony (VII p. 384)

So I have some doubts here, whether Biffle was a plant from Operation Mockingbird.

So he comes forth with this account that made the Dallas Morning News on November 23, that Oswald had been seen in a small storage room on the 1st floor. Even giving Biffle a pass, and picturing him as an honest young journalist, this account has big-time problems.

The teller of the tale, Ochus Campbell, doesn't say anything about seeing Oswald in 2 FBI interviews, on the 24th and 26th, nor in his Secret Service interview the first week of December. A hoaxer would have to enlarge the Truly-Baker mini-conspiracy to now include Campbell- if his account were true- and, if he had blurted something out, add in some squelching by a whole bunch of authorities.

And Ochus Campbell had mentioned a "we"- and who can this be but Jeraldean Reid? Now she gets involved in this T & B mini-conspiracy. But she never mentions having seen Oswald in that small storage room, despite plenty of chances.

The whole affair is very similar to Sylvia Meagher's problems with the Givens story. At every step of the way with Campbell & Reid, the hoaxer has to enlarge the bounds of the mini-conspiracy. Nothing about this Biffle attempt at journalism appeals to me. But that only says that the profession wasn't much different in 1963 as compared to today. I look at it as another red herring in a long line of mis/disinformation hoping to hide the significance of the west elevator.

My guess is that Kent Biffle is still around, and it would be advantageous to ask him whether he was involved with Mockingbird at the time in question. After his denial, you might say that you have proof that he was. And watch his response as you fish out a copy of the news article. And as you show it to him tell him, "I have a living witness..."

[Robert Prudhomme]

It's not a matter of whether or not Truly and Baker actually went up the stairs to the 5th floor or not, it's a question of how long after the last shot Truly and Baker went up the stairs. I believe it was at least a couple of minutes later than they claimed. The proof of this is the number of witnesses standing on the steps who, under testimony, stated they never saw a white helmeted motorcycle cop run past them. Chief among these witnesses are Joe Molina and Buell Wesley Frazier, who were standing at the top of the steps AND directly in front of the door.

If that is the tall gangly 19 year old Frazier we can see at the top of the steps in Darnell, don't you thing Baker at least said "Excuse me!" to Frazier as he pushed him out of the way? Don't you find it a bit odd that Frazier did not recall seeing Baker?

Edited December 12, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

It's not a matter of whether or not Truly and Baker actually went up the stairs to the 5th floor or not, it's a question of how long after the last shot Truly and Baker went up the stairs. I believe it was at least a couple of minutes later than they claimed. The proof of this is the number of witnesses standing on the steps who, under testimony, stated they never saw a white helmeted motorcycle cop run past them. Chief among these witnesses are Joe Molina and Buell Wesley Frazier, who were standing at the top of the steps AND directly in front of the door.

If that is the tall gangly 19 year old Frazier we can see at the top of the steps in Darnell, don't you thing Baker at least said "Excuse me!" to Frazier as he pushed him out of the way? Don't you find it a bit odd that Frazier did not recall seeing Baker?

Bob,

But were they asked whether or not they saw a white-helmeted motorcycle cop run past them? No, they weren't.

Luckily for us, Pauline Sanders volunteered she'd noticed him.

Just because none of the others volunteered that they had seen Baker doesn't necessarily mean that they hadn't seen him.

Let's face it, there was lot's of other stuff going on down on Elm Street and on the Grassy Knoll for them to focus on at the time.

--Tommy

Edited December 12, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

It's not a matter of whether or not Truly and Baker actually went up the stairs to the 5th floor or not, it's a question of how long after the last shot Truly and Baker went up the stairs. I believe it was at least a couple of minutes later than they claimed. The proof of this is the number of witnesses standing on the steps who, under testimony, stated they never saw a white helmeted motorcycle cop run past them. Chief among these witnesses are Joe Molina and Buell Wesley Frazier, who were standing at the top of the steps AND directly in front of the door.

If that is the tall gangly 19 year old Frazier we can see at the top of the steps in Darnell, don't you thing Baker at least said "Excuse me!" to Frazier as he pushed him out of the way? Don't you find it a bit odd that Frazier did not recall seeing Baker?

Bob,

But were they asked whether or not they saw a white-helmeted motorcycle cop run past them? No, they weren't.

Luckily for us, Pauline Sanders volunteered she'd noticed him.

Just because none of the others volunteered that they had seen Baker doesn't necessarily mean that they hadn't seen him.

Let's face it, there was lot's of other stuff going on down on Elm Street and on the Grassy Knoll for them to focus on at the time.

--Tommy

From the Warren Commission testimony of Joe Molina:

"Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?

Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.

Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in."

From the Warren Commission testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier:

"Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there?

Mr. BALL - A police officer.

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.

Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?

Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it."

[James DiEugenio]

So, Ray,

The theory is that the guy in the brown jacket that Baker allegedly saw was a prefabricated, non-existent character, intended to represent Oswald but, fortunately for us, based on old, faulty, mole-hunt-based information that the FBI or CIA had unwittingly furnished to Army Intel or the Dallas Police Department.

--Tommy

Why does that have to be the case?

Could he not have been part of the hit team?

DIdn't Worrell then see someone running out the back of the building?

[David Von Pein]

A cop trained to be observant described a guy on the third or fourth floor as

"... a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket."

Third or fourth floor.....no.... ..second floor (allegedly)

White man................... check

30 years old................ no...... 24 years old.

165 lbs..........................no..... 131 lbs

dark hair..............,,,,,,,,,,check

Light brown jacket.......No ... patterned shirt.

I go with his first affidavit.

Yeah, me too. And we KNOW for an absolute FACT that Baker saw LEE OSWALD and nobody else.

More....

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

One of the many things that conspiracy theorists will always refuse to evaluate properly is the fact that Howard Brennan provided a description of the 6th-floor assassin on Day 1 (November 22) in his affidavit that generally fits Lee Oswald.

Even the age of the assassin Brennan saw fits perfectly with Marrion Baker's incorrect estimate of Lee Oswald's age -- about 30 -- which we know is wrong, but we also know that the man Baker described as being "approximately 30 years old" WAS Lee Harvey Oswald and not somebody who could have merely been confused with Oswald.

And then there are the "weight" estimates provided by Brennan and Baker in their individual affidavits, which also (just like the "age" estimate) blend together perfectly:

Baker said -- "165 pounds".

Brennan said -- "165 to 175 pounds".

And, just like Baker's estimate for Oswald's age, the weight estimate he provided in his affidavit is wrong, but we still know that Baker was estimating the weight of the real Lee Harvey Oswald when he wrote down "165 pounds" in his 11/22/63 affidavit.

Ergo, we know that it is, indeed, possible for a person to look right at Lee Harvey Oswald on November 22, 1963, and think he weighed as much as 165 pounds. Shouldn't this fact mean just a little something to CTers when they attempt to assess whether or not Howard Brennan could have possibly seen Oswald in the Sniper's Nest on that same day?

Do CTers think that Baker and Brennan got together and swapped information so that their affidavits would merge perfectly with respect to both the "age" and "weight" estimates?

A CONSPIRACY THEORIST KNOWN

AS "NICKNAME" SAID:

Brennan's testimony does your case no good, unfortunately. He recalls seeing "a white man, early 30's, slender, weight about 165 to 175 pounds." As if that description doesn't fit 40 million people. Add that he was 120 feet away, staring at a figure six stories up. Could you positively ID someone from that distance? And even if it was Oswald he saw, that only proves that Oswald was ONE OF the shooters, not the only shooter.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

NickName,

Read my last post again, and place Brennan's 11/22 affidavit alongside Baker's 11/22 affidavit. Can't you see the similarities?

And, as I said, we know for an absolute irrefutable fact that Marrion Baker was describing Lee Harvey Oswald in that affidavit and nobody else on Earth. And yet he made the same TWO incorrect estimates that Howard Brennan also made -- age and weight.

And you surely aren't going to pull a DiEugenio on me and claim something silly like this (are you?)....

"Baker never saw Oswald. .... I believe the [Oswald/Baker/Truly] incident was created after the fact."

-- James DiEugenio; July 13-14, 2015

GARRY PUFFER SAID:

A guy who weighs 141 pounds would never be said to weigh 165.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Tell that to Marrion L. Baker of the Dallas Police Department, Garry....

"The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds." -- M.L. Baker; November 22, 1963

Let me guess, Garry --- Marrion Baker wasn't really describing the real Lee Harvey Oswald when he said the man he stopped at gunpoint in the Depository's second-floor lunchroom weighed "165 pounds", right? You think Baker was either lying or he was describing somebody besides Oswald (despite the fact Roy Truly, who was right there in the lunchroom with Baker during the encounter, confirmed it was Lee Oswald). Right?

Let's hear the CTers' lame, rip-roaring, half-baked excuse for totally dismissing these words written by Roy Truly on 11/23/63:

"The officer and I went through the shipping department to the freight elevator. We then started up the stairway. We hit the second floor landing, the officer stuck his head into the lunch room area where there are Coke and candy machines. Lee Oswald was in there. The officer had his gun on Oswald and asked me if he was an employee. I answered yes." -- Roy S. Truly; November 23, 1963

HANK SIENZANT SAID:

Great post, David.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Hank.

I like to keep this "Assassination Arguments Part 1000" page handy whenever somebody tells me that it would have been utterly impossible for any witness to think Lee Oswald weighed as much as 165 pounds.

DAVID G. HEALY SAID:

What a ludicrous post. Witnesses can THINK what they want about any old thing. It's what they THINK and interpret about what they saw that's important.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Right. And Marrion L. Baker THOUGHT the man he stopped in the 2nd-floor lunchroom weighed about 165 pounds. (It says so right there in Baker's written statement that he composed on the same day.)

And Marrion L. Baker INTERPRETED what he saw (i.e., Lee Harvey Oswald's body) as being a person who weighed 165 pounds.

(And Healy berates me for my post being "ludicrous". Incrediburgible! Pot collides head-on with Kettle yet again.)

DAVID G. HEALY SAID:

For one reading witnesses' testimony, it is entirely POSSIBLE for one to state: it's utterly impossible to cram 165 pounds into a 130[-pound] frame.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Sure. But that's not the point, you clown, and you know it. The point is: How much did Officer Baker think Lee Oswald weighed?

Because as much as you conspiracy-happy clowns dislike this fact, Marrion Baker proved for all time that it most certainly was NOT "impossible" for a person who was staring right at Lee Harvey Oswald on the date of 11/22/63 to believe that Oswald weighed as much as 165 pounds.

And Howard Brennan's first-day affidavit, in which Brennan says he thought the sixth-floor assassin weighed as much as "165 to 175 pounds", when coupled with Marrion Baker's statement regarding Oswald's estimated weight (and age too [30 years old]), make it all too obvious that witnesses who saw Oswald on the day of the assassination CAN--and DID--think Oswald weighed at least 165 pounds.

And Brennan's statement concerning the man he saw firing a rifle at President Kennedy needs to be evaluated with this important fact in mind too....i.e.:

The "165 to 175-pound" person Brennan saw in the window was located in the exact same place on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building where we know evidence was found that is incriminating against the exact same "165-pound" person seen just a couple of minutes later by Dallas Police Officer Marrion Baker. Incriminating evidence such as fingerprints, palmprints, the empty 38-inch paper bag with Oswald's prints on it, and the three expended bullet shells that were conclusively proven to have been fired in and ejected from the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action rifle purchased by Lee Harvey Oswald on March 12, 1963.

Given the amount of physical evidence that is screaming "Oswald Was Here In This Sniper's Nest On November 22, 1963", the odds that Howard L. Brennan saw anyone OTHER than Lee Harvey Oswald in that sixth-floor window at 12:30 PM CST on 11/22/63 are virtually zero.

David Von Pein

August 15, 2015

December 1, 2015

Edited December 13, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Thomas Graves]

It's not a matter of whether or not Truly and Baker actually went up the stairs to the 5th floor or not, it's a question of how long after the last shot Truly and Baker went up the stairs. I believe it was at least a couple of minutes later than they claimed. The proof of this is the number of witnesses standing on the steps who, under testimony, stated they never saw a white helmeted motorcycle cop run past them. Chief among these witnesses are Joe Molina and Buell Wesley Frazier, who were standing at the top of the steps AND directly in front of the door.

If that is the tall gangly 19 year old Frazier we can see at the top of the steps in Darnell, don't you thing Baker at least said "Excuse me!" to Frazier as he pushed him out of the way? Don't you find it a bit odd that Frazier did not recall seeing Baker?

Dear Bob,

We know from Couch / Darnell that Baker veered to the right some when he jumped up on the sidewalk, so he probably didn't run up the left side of the steps, the side that Frazier and Molina were facing.

Baker probably passed behind both of them. Which would explain why they didn't notice him.

It sounds like Baker's route up the steps passed in front of Pauline Sanders, or maybe she was just more observant.

--Tommy

Edited December 13, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

I thought we already discussed the fact that Baker was never seen to approach the stairs in Darnell. And now you know which side of the stairs he went up? Are you clairvoyant?

Joe Molina did not see Baker ascend the front steps, even when Ball specifically asked Molina if he had seen a "white helmeted police officer" enter the TSBD. Molina did, though, see Roy Truly enter the TSBD. According to popular belief, Truly and Baker ascended the front steps together, supposedly on the same side of the centre railing. How did Molina see Truly, but not see Baker?

[Thomas Graves]

I thought we already discussed the fact that Baker was never seen to approach the stairs in Darnell. And now you know which side of the stairs he went up? Are you clairvoyant?

Joe Molina did not see Baker ascend the front steps, even when Ball specifically asked Molina if he had seen a "white helmeted police officer" enter the TSBD. Molina did, though, see Roy Truly enter the TSBD. According to popular belief, Truly and Baker ascended the front steps together, supposedly on the same side of the centre railing. How did Molina see Truly, but not see Baker?

Dear Bob,

What do you mean "we don't see Baker approach the stairs in the Darnell clip"? What's your definition of "approach," anyway?

Doesn't "approach" mean to go towards something and get closer and closer to it?

If Baker wasn't running towards the steps and getting close to them, then why in the heck did the tall, suit-wearing guy at the foot of them sidestep out of his way and wave him up them with his left arm? (Yes, Bob, I'm aware of the fact that Baker veered and didn't run up the steps where the suit-wearing guy thought he was going to go.)

The tall, suit-wearing guy at the base of the steps obviously though Baker was going to run up the steps. Why did he think that? Answer: Because Baker was running like a madman towards them from across the street, and veered a little only when he was up on the sidewalk, close to them!

Haven't we already talked about this?

--Tommy

By the way, While we're "at" it, please tell us where you think the following people were

at 1 ) the time of the final shot), 2 ) one minute after the final shot, 3 ) three minutes after the final shot, and 4 ) five minutes after the final shot. No need to explain why you want them to be there, just where you want them to be.

1 ) Lee Harvey Oswald (the guy Ruby killed on 11/24/63)

2 ) Marion L. Baker

3 ) Roy S. Truly

4 ) Vicki Adams

5 ) Billy Lovelady

6 ) William H. Shelley

Thanks!

Edited December 13, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Please show us precisely where Baker "veered" toward the steps. From all indications, in Darnell's film, he was running parallel to the steps and could just as easily have run right past them.