The Real Ruth and Michael Paine

[Jon G. Tidd]

Is anyone here certain that he or she knows all the persons with whom Ruth and Michael Paine communicated in 1963?

I ask because if Ruth (or Ruth and Michael) helped frame Oswald pre-assassination, she or Michael must have gotten instructions from some party. I say this because I don't believe Ruth (or Ruth and Michael) acted all by themselves, unconnected to third parties, to frame Oswald.

In 1963, there were only a few forms of inter-personal communication: writing (secret notes, newspaper ads, letters, etc.); speaking (face-to-face, telephone, etc.); body language; and pictures (e.g., a symbolic drawing, photograph, television).

George DeM. appears to me to have stopped communication with Ruth (or Michael) after he departed Dallas.

If someone was guiding and controlling Ruth in the spring, summer, and fall of 1963, who was it?

Some have argued that there must have been a connection, a communication link of some sort, between Allen Dulles and Ruth Paine. Fine. What facts establish this communication link? BTW, a wink and a nod count as body language.

I'm open-minded. I dislike Ruth and Michael because I think they are not forthcoming. Basically, I want verifiable facts.

[Gene Kelly]

Jon:

Here are a few candidates:

George A. Bouhe, 4740 Homer Street, Dallas TX. I believe that there was correspondence and mail between Ruth and Bouhe. Jim Garrison later asked Ruth if she knew that Bouhe lived a door down from Ruby; that they knew each other, and shared a common swimming pool. Marina apparently did know because, right after the assassination, Bouhe came to visit her and told her that it was all just a coincidence.

Gary Taylor, George de Mohrenschildt’s estranged son-in-law, who visited the Neely Street apartment.

Gene

[Paul Trejo]

"Now, by definition, a Patsy is involved with people who don't respect him (or her) in the slightest, and will sacrifice him (or her) in a heartbeat."

"LHO was cooperating with criminals -- and he KNEW it"

Paul ... he was cooperating with the Dallas Police.

Well, Ed, your sentence there is cryptic. It can be interpreted in a dozen ways at least.

From the early findings of Jim Garrison (before he blamed the CIA for the JFK murder) we have material evidence that LHO was working in New Orleans at 544 Camp Street, where Guy Banister had his offices.

Guy Banister was a rabid racist -- he was dead set against racial integration of public schools, and he ran for Public Office in New Orleans on that basis. His political allies included the KKK, the White Citizens Councils, the States Rights Parties, the John Birch Society and the Minutemen. (These were also all the circles that General Walker moved in.)

LHO was working *directly* with Guy Banister, and with four of Guy Banister's New Orleans contacts: Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuier.

These guys were all supporters of Guy Banister, but they had an extra agenda dear to their hearts, namely, the assassination of Fidel Castro.

Guy Banister was also a former FBI man. He kept in contact with rogues from the FBI, and he collected lots of money from rightist extremists to maintain Cuban Exile and mercenary paramilitary training camps in New Orleans. The Minutemen were also happy to train with these guys.

Dirty cops would also support Guy Banister -- for example, Richard Cain from Chicago. Other contacts of Guy Banister included Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall and Larry Howard. Also seen at the New Orleans paramilitary training camps were folks like Frank Sturgis and Howard Hunt. (The presence of Howard Hunt misleads many to believe that the CIA was in control of Guy Banister, but that's a stretch. Guy Banister quit the FBI so that he could be independent, and do things his own way.)

Dirty cops would also support the Minutemen, JBS, WCC, NSRP and KKK in Dallas Texas, and their leader was General Walker.

LHO was working with Guy Banister -- and IMHO its seems that LHO didn't know that Banister and Walker were pals. LHO thought he was working only for Guy Banister -- but it turns out that General Walker was controlling the whole operation.

What was LHO doing for Guy Banister? LHO was pretending to be Red. Why? So that LHO could infiltrate the FPCC and Communists. This was something that Guy Banister had been working on before LHO came into his life.

We know this because of the Hardway-Lopez Report (2003). We have the resume of Fake credentials that LHO took to Mexico City in late September 1963. Those Fake credentials included a Fake Communist Party card, a Fake FPCC card, and lots of newspaper clippings from New Orleans that "proved" that LHO was a Secretary of the FPCC in New Orleans, and had a police record for it, had fought in the streets for it, had been on radio for it and had appeared on TV for it.

Guy Banister's Fake resume for LHO was so convincing 52 years ago, that people who fail to look closely at it are still fooled by it. I've lost count of journalists, even today, who use these Fake credentials to "prove" that LHO was a Red.

But LHO evidently pretended to be Red in order to Fake his way into Havana Cuba. What he didn't count on was that the Cuban Consulate had an official list of genuine FPCC Secretaries, and LHO's name wasn't on that list. Also, they could spot a Fake Communist Party card a block away (being Communists themselves). They knew (and they said right away) that LHO was a Fake who was trying to sneak into Cuba for some right-wingers in the USA. THEY WERE SO CORRECT.

Now -- long story short -- LHO didn't realize he was working for General Walker and rogues in the Dallas Police Force. LHO didn't realize that Walker had planned to humiliate JFK in Dallas just as he had humiliated Adlai Stevenson the month before in Dallas. Only the humiliation of the Top World Communist (as the JBS had styled JFK) would have to be so much bigger than the humiliation of a mere UN Secretary.

So -- LHO didn't know that he was going to be the Patsy for the Dallas Police rogues working for General Walker. LHO didn't know that Gerry Patrick Hemming knew every one of those guys. LHO didn't know that when he handed over his rifle to Gerry's friend outside of the TSBD on the early morning of 11/22/1963, that he was really handing it over to Dallas Police rogues and their underground Minutemen comrades.

LHO was a Patsy in the true sense of the word; he cooperated with the people who played him like a ukulele.

We don't really know what LHO said in the last three days of his life, because the Dallas Police never kept records of all those interrogations. The Dallas Police testified to the WC what they "remember" LHO saying, but that was many months later.

LHO was, according to my theory, the Patsy of highly placed rogues inside the DPD, but he didn't know that. The people that LHO trusted were the people in New Orleans, like Guy Banister, Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuier -- because LHO acted as though THEY were really in charge, and as though THEY were highly placed and as though THEY could be trusted.

So, it's complicated.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 31, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Is anyone here certain that he or she knows all the persons with whom Ruth and Michael Paine communicated in 1963?

I ask because if Ruth (or Ruth and Michael) helped frame Oswald pre-assassination, she or Michael must have gotten instructions from some party. I say this because I don't believe Ruth (or Ruth and Michael) acted all by themselves, unconnected to third parties, to frame Oswald.

In 1963, there were only a few forms of inter-personal communication: writing (secret notes, newspaper ads, letters, etc.); speaking (face-to-face, telephone, etc.); body language; and pictures (e.g., a symbolic drawing, photograph, television).

George DeM. appears to me to have stopped communication with Ruth (or Michael) after he departed Dallas.

If someone was guiding and controlling Ruth in the spring, summer, and fall of 1963, who was it?

Some have argued that there must have been a connection, a communication link of some sort, between Allen Dulles and Ruth Paine. Fine. What facts establish this communication link? BTW, a wink and a nod count as body language.

I'm open-minded. I dislike Ruth and Michael because I think they are not forthcoming. Basically, I want verifiable facts.

Well, Jon, these are among the questions that Albert Jenner asked the Paines. Have you read their WC testimony? It's online, so it's easy to find.

It's clear to me, after reading all of it, that Ruth and Michael Paine were two rich yuppies in Dallas, and didn't take orders from anyone.

Michael worked for Bell Helicopter as an engineer. He wasn't even a low-level executive. He was an engineer. His pals were engineers. One of those pals was Everett Glover, another engineer. One of Everett's room-mates was Volkmar Schmidt, another engineer. There were others.

Furthermore, Michael and Ruth Paine didn't frame LHO for anything. Ever. They only babysat Marina Oswald so that she could have baby Rachael at Parkland Hospital, while LHO was out of a job. The Oswalds were very NEEDY and the Paines were very rich, and also Ruth felt some affinity for Marina and wanted to have a Russian speaking friend -- another young mother -- somebody interesting in her life beyond the usual, high-school dropout mothers in her neighborhood.

Marina and Ruth had a long correspondence in 1963, and the Warren Commission (WC) took great care to get ahold of each and every letter that they exchanged between them -- in the Russian language. The WC took great care to translate them into English slowly and carefully. Ruth helped to translate them, but the WC got their own translators to double-check her work.

George DeMohrenschildt NEVER communicated with the Paines, either in Dallas or over the post. They hardly knew each other. Ruth saw the DeMohrenschildt's ONE TIME in her life until 1966 (or 1967). That was at Everett Glover's party, which MIchael didn't attend, in which the DeMohrensschildt's drove the Oswalds to this Dallas engineers party -- as a kind of freak show.

Michael Paine might have seen George DeMohrenschildt with Everett Glover on occasion, since Michael was good pals with Everett, and Everett was good pals with George -- but Michael and George didn't move in the same circles. George was a middle-aged oil engineer, and Michael was a young helicopter engineer. They didn't have the same politics. Also, George was also a ladies man, and Michael wasn't.

The only fact that links Ruth Paine and Allen Dulles, according to all these Probe magazine articles in the 1990's, was that Ruth Paine's mother-in-law was also named Ruth Paine, and the elder Ruth Paine had a friend in her childhood named Mary Bancroft, who later became Allen Dulles' mistress.

Now, to normal people that's a ridiculous way to link Ruth Paine with Allen Dulles, but trust me, Jon, the CIA-did-it CTers have been extoling this weak link for over 20 years!

As for George Bouhe, both Ruth and Michael testified that they never met the guy. Bouhe was one of the leaders of the White Russian community, and one of the best friends of George DeMohrenschildt. But he had nothing to do with the Paines.

On the other hand, George Bouhe flirted with Marina Oswald in 1962, and gave her a "hundred" dresses (according to Jeanne DeMohrenschildt) and a baby crib, and fixed her teeth, and this enraged LHO to the point of violence. This is all in the WC testimonies. Marina Oswald never spoke about the White Russian community to Ruth Paine -- because Marina had burnt so many bridges with them. Marina just wanted to raise her kids in a nice American neighborhood like Irving, Texas -- and forget the past.

The verifiable facts show that Michael and Ruth Paine were rich yuppies who had no clue what LHO had gotten himself into. That's my reading of it after many years. Those who disagree with me also tend to evade a full reading of their WC testimony. All these questions have already been asked and answered.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 31, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Ed LeDoux]

Gene,

Interestingly Gary described Neely as if he had only seen one picture,



Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had.

[Thomas Graves]

Gene,

Interestingly Gary described Neely as if he had only seen one picture,

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had.

Or maybe he actually had been there and remembered only the balcony, as it may very well have been the apartment's only "remarkable" feature?

Do you think the WC lawyer should have asked him to describe the elegant kitchen, bedroom, living room, or, heaven forbid, the bathroom? How about the elegant front yard?

--Tommy

Edited January 31, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Ed LeDoux]

Does that look like a Ruth mobile at the curb?

And Gary said he had to rent a trailer (Uhaul) to move Oswalds from Ft. Worth to Elsbeth,
yet Oswald supposedly moves from Elsbeth to Neely with a pram.

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large one, and an old leather suitcase. And that he had these two containers of personal belongings, and we went to Fort Worth and added Marina's to this--Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they were. and brought it all to the Elsbeth Street apartment.

What could you possibly move on a baby carriage? Besides the baby...
Do you think Lee left his furniture with Tobias and Jurek plus his key deposit too?

"The furniture was badly worn."~ Gary Taylor

[Ed LeDoux]

Gene,

Interestingly Gary described Neely as if he had only seen one picture,

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had.

Or maybe he actually had been there and remembered only the balcony, as it may very well have been the apartment's only "remarkable" feature?

Do you think the WC lawyer should have asked him to describe the kitchen, or the bedroom, or the living room, or, heaven forbid, the effing bathroom?

--Tommy

She didn't try to lock Gary in the bathroom, that didn't work remember ;-) So yeah unremarkable.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Ed LeDoux

[Paul Trejo]

When Ruth Paine testified that she moved Marina and baby June Oswald from the Neely Apartment to her home in Irving, she said that the Oswalds had no significant furniture of their own -- except a baby crib.

Evidently, this was the same baby crib that was given to Marina Oswald by George Bouhe -- the one which LHO threatened to smash -- out of jealousy against George Bouhe.

Other than that -- the Oswalds evidently required a furnished apartment.

Here's what Ruth testified (in very brief and informal terms):

Ruth Paine testified that on 24 April 1963, she went to visit Marina and LHO, knowing by then that LHO had lost his job at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. Ruth says that she was surprised to find that LHO was all packed up and ready to go to New Orleans.

LHO was hoping that Ruth would transport his two Marine duffel bags and his few suitcases to the Greyhound bus station for him (because it was cheaper than hiring a taxi). Ruth said, sure.

They all piled into Ruth's station wagon with LHO's luggage (which he loaded into her station wagon single-handedly).

At the Greyhound station, LHO bought two tickets -- one for himself for the morning, and one for Marina, so that she could come to NOLA by herself and baby June as soon as he could: (1) find a job; (2) find a new furnished apartment; and (3) send her a letter.

Ruth Paine was outraged -- but she didn't say that. Marina may have been only three months pregnant, but she also had a baby in arms, and she couldn't speak English, and she'd never taken an interstate bus alone before, and she'd never been to New Orleans before. Finally, how could Marina be expected to load all the rest of their belongings -- the baby crib, the baby carriage, all their clothes, for the bus ride to New Orleans, all by herself?

Also, Marina never lived alone in an apartment before, not knowing when LHO was going to get hired and send her a letter. The rent for the Neely apartment was paid up to May 1st, but what guarantee did LHO show that he would have a job by then?

Ruth Paine was inwardly outraged by LHO's treatment of Marina on this day. If LHO was going to stay with his relatives in New Orleans, why couldn't he also take his own wife and child? Was he ashamed of them? Then what?

But Ruth didn't say any of this -- she only thought it. (And no, I'm not a mind-reader -- Ruth Paine testified that she thought this).

Instead, Ruth Paine put on her best face, smiled sweetly, and said to LHO, words to this effect, "I have a good idea, Lee, why doesn't Marina just stay with me, because I have a telephone, and instead of waiting for a letter, you could just call her on the telephone!"

LHO and Marina looked at each other. It wasn't a bad idea.

Then Ruth Paine added, "Also, Marina won't even need to take the bus, Lee, because I'd be happy to drive her and baby June to New Orleans! I'll bring my kids! It could be fun!"

LHO considered this and then said words to this effect: "Great idea! Marina doesn't need a bus ticket! I can take her ticket back right now and get the cash for it!" So, that's just what LHO did. When he came back to Ruth's car, LHO kept some of Marina's bus ticket money for himself, and he gave Marina some of it, so she could have something while she was waiting at Ruth Paine's house.

My point -- since we're talking about Oswald furniture -- is that after depositing his Marine duffel bags and his few suitcases at the Greyhound bus terminal, LHO accompanied Ruth, Marina, baby June, and Ruth's two children back to the Oswald's Neely Street residence, and LHO spent the next hour or so emptying the apartment of their few belongings into Ruth Paine's car -- with the baby crib on the top, IIRC, and tying it all up with rope. Ruth helped LHO with the tying.

Then, LHO kissed Marina and baby June goodbye, and LHO stayed at the apartment that night, planning to take the city bus to the Greyhound terminal early in the morning. Ruth took Marina and June back to her Irving home, and for the first time in their lives, Marina and baby June lived with "auntie" Ruth. (That's what Marina called Ruth when speaking to baby June, and Ruth liked that.)

Ruth and Marina unpacked the rest of the Oswald belongings when they arrived -- and stored it in Ruth Paine's garage. It wasn't much -- mostly baby things and clothes. THERE WAS NO SIGNIFICANT FURNITURE.

Marina and baby June would stay with Ruth Paine for 16 days -- from April 24th to May 10th -- as LHO would finally call Marina on the telephone on the evening of May 10th, 1963, with the great news that he found a job and found an apartment.

Early in the morning on May 11th, Ruth and Marina packed up the Oswald belongings in about an hour, and with their three children they drove all day to New Orleans, arriving there in the evening. They didn't go to LHO's new apartment, instead, they had dinner with LHO's relatives, the Dutz family.

Marina was thrilled, because she mistakenly thought that the Dutz home was LHO's new dwelling. It was a comfortable middle-class home. Lovely. But no. After dinner, LHO took Ruth and Marina to his new, roach infested apartment on Magazine Street. Marina was totally disappointed by the contrast. In any case, it took LHO only a short while to UNLOAD THEIR FEW BELONGINGS.

It was late, and the Oswalds invited Ruth to sleep on the living room floor with her kids that night. Ruth said OK, and so she made a circle of bug spray on the floor, to keep the roaches away from her bed with her two small children. The rest of the evening they heard Marina and LHO shouting at each other. Ruth couldn't wait to get back to Irving.

My point, obviously, is that the Oswalds didn't have enough money to afford anything but a furnished apartment. That's how I read it.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 31, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Ed LeDoux]

Your skirting the issue.

So why the Uhaul?
Where did the furnishings go?
Why claim the place was empty later? Would that not imply it was full before?

What Ruth took with her would not require a trailer, correct?
She left Lee with an furnished apt. then?

My point -- since we're talking about Oswald furniture -- is that after depositing his Marine duffel bags and his few suitcases at the Greyhound bus terminal, LHO accompanied Ruth, Marina, baby June, and Ruth's two children back to the Oswald's Neely Street residence, and LHO spent the next hour or so emptying the apartment of their few belongings into Ruth Paine's car -- with the baby crib on the top, IIRC, and tying it all up with rope. Ruth helped LHO with the tying.

Did Ruth help tie up the rifle too?
Do you have a single piece of evidence to back this claim she deposited sea bags?
Go ahead show us the sea bags with tags, markings, etc.
Show us!

Prove this "POINT" Paul

Mazel Tov,
Ed

[Paul Trejo]

Your skirting the issue.

So why the Uhaul?

Where did the furnishings go?

Why claim the place was empty later? Would that not imply it was full before?

What Ruth took with her would not require a trailer, correct?

She left Lee with an furnished apt. then?

My point -- since we're talking about Oswald furniture -- is that after depositing his Marine duffel bags and his few suitcases at the Greyhound bus terminal, LHO accompanied Ruth, Marina, baby June, and Ruth's two children back to the Oswald's Neely Street residence, and LHO spent the next hour or so emptying the apartment of their few belongings into Ruth Paine's car -- with the baby crib on the top, IIRC, and tying it all up with rope. Ruth helped LHO with the tying.

Did Ruth help tie up the rifle too?

Do you have a single piece of evidence to back this claim she deposited sea bags?

Go ahead show us the sea bags with tags, markings, etc.

Show us!

Prove this "POINT" Paul

Mazel Tov,

Ed

Well, Ed, as for LHO's alleged rifle, Ruth Paine testified that she never saw it, moved it or touched it at any time that she associated with the Oswalds. Nobody has ever presented any material evidence otherwise.

As for the Oswald's personal property, let's look at the WC testimony that I presume you are using as your source -- since it's the only source of the U-Haul story:

------- BEGIN EXTRACT OF GARY TAYLOR WC TESTIMONY -- 3/25/1964 -------

Mr. JENNER. Did the occasion arise in which Lee Oswald called you to ask you to assist in moving him and Marina to an apartment in Dallas?

Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure how definitely that was -- I'm not definitely sure how that was instigated. I'm not sure. It was either Lee directly or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that asked for this assistance in moving. Whichever it was, my wife and I got together with Lee, I believe, on a Sunday afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pick him up or did he come to your home?

Mr. TAYLOR. I cannot remember.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have anything with him in the way of luggage?

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he did.

Mr. JENNER. Describe it, please.

Mr. TAYLOR. I believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large one, and an old leather suitcase. And that he had these two containers of personal belongings, and we went to Fort Worth and added Marina's to this -- Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they were. and brought it all to the Elsbeth Street apartment.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did you pile all of this clothing and household furniture, to the extent they had any, in the rear of your automobile and haul it back to Dallas? Or how did you do this?

Mr. TAYLOR. I rented a trailer in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Now, where did you rent that trailer? Where was the place located from which you rented the trailer?

Mr. TAYLOR. I do not remember. I have even been to this place recently again with Mr. Yelchek of the FBI. And we went over one evening and pinpointed the location of that service station where I had rented a small covered trailer and ...when Mr. Yelchek and I went...the owner says that -- or there is no record of the rental at this location. There seems to be a set of duplicate books involved -- one for themselves and one for the National Trailer Co., whichever one it was. A little fraud, or something, involved in that. We didn't get too involved in it--just to know that there wasn't any record.

------- END EXTRACT OF GARY TAYLOR WC TESTIMONY -- 3/25/1964 ------

There are weaknesses with Gary Taylor's testimony. His claim that he rented a U-Haul to move the Oswald belongings was tested by the FBI, and the FBI found no records of the rental. (Probably no big deal.)

Aside from that, there is no clear itemization of the Oswald property that Gary Taylor moved. When asked to itemize what he remembered, Gary Taylor said: "a rather large paper bag of clothing...an old leather suitcase...these two containers of personal belongings..." and then Marina's belongings.

I think most of us will agree that LHO didn't have much personal property to move. These "two containers" might be Marine duffel bags, or might not. He's not detailed. So, let's talk about Marina's property. Gary only says: "Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they were." WHATEVER THEY WERE? Gary gives us zero detail.

Note also that Gary doesn't say "furniture" but he says "furnishings" which IMHO is a key difference. The DeMohrenschildt's talked about a baby crib; and a baby carriage. These could be bulky.

As for Marina's belongings other than these non-descript "furnishings", we have testimony from Gary Taylor's mother-in-law, namely, Jeanne DeMohrenschildt. When speaking about the charity that the White Russian community, especially George Bouhe, would shower on Marina -- which made LHO very jealous, this is what Jeanne said. (Please bear in mind that English isn't Jeanne's first language):

------- BEGIN EXTRACT OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT WC TESTIMONY -- 4/23/1964 -------

Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about Lee Oswald...

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. ...His greatest objection was that people helped them too much, they were showering things on Marina. Marina had a hundred dresses given to her. The baby had a crib. My daughter didn’t have it when I came to the United States...So, anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because Marina was throwing it into his face.

Mr. JENNER. She was?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely -- see people, how nice they are? And she is always telling me the people are nice, giving all these things, and he is insulting them for it. He was offensive with the people. And I can understand why. And maybe I was the only one that understood him, while he was offensive, because that hurt him. He could never give her what the people were showering on her...I don’t think he was offensive for that, but because of the things we did, he could have killed us...

<snip>

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about it now...You reached the point where you and your husband took Marina and the child out of the home and away from Oswald against his objections.

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Against his objections. Actually, we talked him into doing it peacefully.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you take Marina and June?

Mrs. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We took Marina and June to the house of Anna Meller...Very poor people -- they put the baby’s crib right in the dining room and everything. That is how nice people were, trying to help her. That was supposed to be temporary until we find another place where she could live with somebody for 2 or 3 months...

------- END EXTRACT OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT WC TESTIMONY -- 4/23/1964 -------

I included Jeanne's testimony about Anna Meller because it mentioned Marina's baby crib again. I also highlighted Jeanne's statement that Marina was given "a hundred dresses" by the White Russian community in Dallas.

Now, that may be an exaggeration, but perhaps not -- yet let us estimate, anyway, that Marina had at minimum 10 office boxes full of personal clothing.

Now, with a hundred dresses, and a baby crib, and a baby stroller -- one could not fit all of this into a sedan with three people and a baby. One would need to rent a U-Haul. But let's look at George's WC testimony on the same topic, speaking of LHO and Marina and their personal property:

------- BEGIN EXTRACT OF GEORGE DE MOHRENSCHILDT WC TESTIMONY -- 4/22/1964 -------

Mr. JENNER. The attitudes she had, and the attitude he had.

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He liked Russia more than she did. I think he liked the conditions in Russia more than she did.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was a foreigner there, and he had a privileged position. He had a nice apartment. He said that people were interested in him, you see...The workers would come to him and ask him questions about the United States and so on, and that pleased him very much...Both were disappointed in what happened to them after they came back to the United States. And I think that Lee more than Marina. Because as the time went on, Marina was getting more and more things from people -- people like the Clarks, like ourselves, like George Bouhe; started giving her gifts, dresses and so on and so forth. She had some hundred dresses.

Mr. JENNER. A large number of dresses?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. About a hundred dresses. When we carried them out to live with the Mellers, my car was loaded with her dresses. It was all contributions from the various people, in Fort Worth and Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. In addition to dresses and clothing, what other things?

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, mainly baby things. She had two cribs, I remember. She had a baby carriage. I think George Bouhe gave it to her. Toys for the baby. Many things like that.

------- END EXTRACT OF GEORGE DE MOHRENSCHILDT WC TESTIMONY -- 4/22/1964 -------

I wonder if "a hundred dresses" might be an exaggeration, but the term recurs. Also, the cribs jumped from one to two -- which is odd, since who needs two cribs for one baby? But George was also an ESL speaker, so he might have been building up to the baby "carriage" or "stroller", as a baby "container." Maybe.

Anyway, consider this: when George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt and George Bouhe made arrangements to move Marina Oswald to the Mellers, this is what LHO said:

------- BEGIN EXTRACT OF GEORGE DE MOHRENSCHILDT WC TESTIMONY -- 4/22/1964 -------

Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And then again George Bouhe told me that he had beaten her again...Anyway, on Sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to Marina’s place early in the morning and told Oswald that we are going to take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take her to Mr. and Mrs. Meller. I think George Bouhe made the previous arrangement, because he was closer to the Mellers than I was...Anyway, they were. ready to receive her. And Lee said, “By God, you are not going to do it. I will tear all her dresses and I will break all the baby things.”

------- END EXTRACT OF GEORGE DE MOHRENSCHILDT WC TESTIMONY -- 4/22/1964 -------

I cite that because it affirms again that their property mainly consisted of clothes and baby furnishings.

Yet Ruth doesn't tell about Marina having "hundreds" of dresses, but again, Ruth would rarely pry into other people's private property. But George DeM tells us of LHO's threat to "tear all her dresses." It's possible that LHO did destroy at least some of Marina's dresses -- out of envy of George Bouhe.

I think this testimony gives readers a clearer picture, Ed -- even about the alleged U-Haul. No testimony speaks of the Oswalds having any "furniture" as we commonly understand it: bedroom sets, living room sets; dining sets and so forth.

They had clothing and baby stuff. How about this, Ed? Is this in the ball-park of the evidence you requested for my POINT?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited January 31, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Ed LeDoux]

Baby carriage and crib are apartment furnishings to you?

So Gary didn't need a trailer but for kicks rents one instead of tie crib to roof, and put the pram in trunk?

Okay.

Paul, he also swore it in an affidavit
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/taylor2.htm


Now Mrs. Hall said,

Mr. LIEBELER - I understand that you helped Marina move from the apartment in Fort Worth to your house in a pickup truck that you borrowed?
Mrs. HALL - Yes; Patterson had a pickup truck.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did anybody else help you, or just you and Marina did the moving?
Mrs. HALL - Lee still was there, so when we moved, he went to Dallas that night, that afternoon.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there anybody besides you and Marina and Lee that helped you with the moving?
Mrs. HALL - No; nobody else. They didn't have nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER - There wasn't very much to move?
Mrs. HALL - No; the baby was sleeping in a suitcase. And then the first time when George went -
Mr. LIEBELER - George Bouhe?
Mrs. HALL - He saw this situation. He bought a little bed for the child and a couple of other things. He helped them very much. He was very nice about that.

Oh I see the Oswald's had enough that she needed to borrow a pickup truck to haul it all. Much like Gary needed to rent a trailer to haul it all.
Your point is showing, I suggest a hat.

Dasvidanya,
Ed

[Larry Hancock]

Ed, having been there at that period in time I can witness that cribs were fairly large, normally wooden and did not fold....baby carriages were metal, pretty

bulky and did not fold either...not like today's. Certainly if I were moving back then neither would have fit in a car trunk, certainly not a crib and putting either

on the car roof would be a chore and likely scratch the car. If you had access to a pick up it would be ideal, no disassembly, just lift both up into

the bed of the pick up and off you go. A truck not be needed but a pick up makes sense.

[Paul Trejo]

...Oh I see the Oswald's had enough that she needed to borrow a pickup truck to haul it all. Much like Gary needed to rent a trailer to haul it all.

Your point is showing, I suggest a hat.

Dasvidanya,

Ed

Ed, I already explained that one couldn't just use a regular car to transport three adults and a baby, as well as all the clothing that LHO and Marina had, plus a baby crib and a baby stroller.

You can't use a car for all that. You need more.

Larry Hancock's comments on this topic are also relevant here -- the old-fashioned baby stuff wasn't foldable like today's.

You needed more than just a car.

But that doesn't mean they had FURNITURE. Nobody , not one person, not even the affidavit you provided, in fact NOTHING that you provided, suggests that the Oswalds had a bedroom set, a living room set or a dining room set. NO ACTUAL FURNITURE OF ANY KIND WAS EVER DESCRIBED BY ANYBODY.

But like Jeanne and George DeMohrenschildt implied, George Bouhe was so infatuated with Marina Oswald that he went overboard in collecting charity for her, and they said (if they weren't exaggerating) that they collected A HUNDRED DRESSES for Marina.

Even if you stuffed them all in office boxes, you'd probably need twenty office boxes for a hundred slim dresses. You can't fit that in a car. So they had stuff -- JUST NO FURNITURE.

Nor did Gary Taylor say that they had "Furniture." Nor did ANYBODY ELSE. So, where did you get the idea?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited February 1, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

I know nothing about George Bouhe. I do know that if he were controlling Ruth Paine on behalf of an intelligence agency, both he and Ruth would have a pretext for their meetings and communications. That pretext would be a cover story. I also know that Bouhe would have an invisible link to his handler.