Did Ruby talk about Oswald at Ray McKeown's before the assassination?

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy,

I think Jack "Sparky" Rubenstein was Mickey Cohen's guy in Dallas. That may be partially born out by his interest in Mickey Cohen's girl, Candy Barr. In 1963 Mickey was just starting his 2nd year at Alcatraz and Candy had just gotten out on parole.

Mickey had previously worked for Capone in Chicago and in the 50's-60's was affiliated with Bugsy Siegal in LA and Las Vegas.

Not to sound racist but the reality was that Jack wasn't part of the Italian/Sicilian gang.

Just my opinion.

Chris,

Your theory is interesting in that it could also possibly tie Ruby's activities in with those of Cohen's boss Bugsy Siegel and Bugsy's moll,Virginia Hill. Hill had been importing heroin from Mexico (and Cuba?), transporting shipments from her bar in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, to Harold "Happy" Meltzer who was living just across the border in Laredo, Texas. (Yes, Laredo. As in Richard Case Nagell.) See Strength of the Wolf by Douglas Valentine.

It's interesting to note that, according to the Federal Bureau of Narcotics' book "The Mafia," Meltzer was considered as a possible CIA assassin on December 19, 1960.

And, of course, Johnny Roselli.

Regarding the Chicago Outfit's attempt to move into Dallas, here's an interesting newspaper article from December, 1946. The "Romeo Frank Natti" who was arrested was also known as Jack Knapp.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1946/12/20/page/10/article/chicago-gangs-gambling-plot-nipped-in-texas

From an informative article:

"On November 6, 1946, Pat Manno [of Chicago] arrived in Dallas and registered at the Adolphus Hotel. Early the next morning Manno, Paul [Roland] Jones, Jack Knapp (the syndicate representative in Wisconsin and a nephew to Manno), and Lt. George Butler of the Dallas Police Department, met with Sheriff Guthrie at his residence for nearly three hours. They talked about establishing a nightclub as a front for gambling operations in Dallas, but Ruby's actual role in managing such a place is questionable despite allegations to the contrary. In 1979, the Select Committee on Assassinations concluded that there is no hard evidence that Ruby was the man the Chicago mob had in mind for such a delicate assignment."

http://www.richardlindberg.net/articles/chicago_mob.html

Last but not least, here's more on Romeo Frank Natti / Romie J. Nappi / Frank Knapp / etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romie_Nappi

-- Tommy

Edited September 27, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Roger DeLaria]

Didn't Nixon say he recognized Ruby as one of LBJ's guys when he saw him on tv? I'm quite sure LBJ has some underworld ties in Dallas, if not directly, then through Ed Clark or someone.

[James DiEugenio]

Isn't that part of the Roger Stone book?

As this presidential campaign has played out--what with Stone referring to Judy Baker on Ted Cruz father being in New Orleans for the leafleting affair--I think its unwise to rely on a Roger Stone, single, secondary source for any important fact.

[Roger DeLaria]

I don't know if it's part of the Roger Stone book or not, I didn't have Stone in mind when I wrote that. I just remember reading it, but I don't remember where.

[Chris Newton]

Roger Stone's problem is similar to E. Howard Hunt's - they both have stories to tell but that's what they do for a living, (or in Howard's case "did"), it's very hard to pry the fact from the fiction..

Edited September 27, 2016 by Chris Newton

[Sandy Larsen]

Tommy,

The only "quibble" I have with the above is really the same "quibble" I would raise with the '47 note itself. That somehow Ruby, after being discharged in 1946, came to be either "Ginacana's or Nixon's man" in the span of a few months.

That's some upward social mobility.

Chris,

We know that Ruby was born and raised in Chicago, and started out being a runner / errand boy for Al Capone. One thing leads to another and he becomes an official of the mobbed-up Junk Handler's Union, murders someone in the Junk Handler's Union office, and eventually moves to Dallas in '47 to help the Chicago Outfit "move in" there. It seems he was already pretty well connected to the Chicago Syndicate at that time. So Nixon does The Syndicate a little favor by asking his buddy, JEH, to make it so's Ruby don't have to do no testifyin' before no stinkin' Congressional Committee whiles Ruby's so busy down there in Big D in '47.

You heard of Paul "Needle Nose" Labriola, Paul Roland Jones, etc?

https://books.google.com/books?id=7U8PAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT319&lpg=PT319&dq=ruby+%22paul+needle+nose+labriola%22+%22paul+roland+jones%22&source=bl&ots=wh5ON5AdHZ&sig=PLb5HfSdxZ-xpelo-v4Si1ExzYA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijhuHnpq7PAhVkVWMKHcn4Ay8Q6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=ruby%20%22paul%20needle%20nose%20labriola%22%20%22paul%20roland%20jones%22&f=false

http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=4245&mn=534611&pt=msg&mid=9041354

-- Tommy

Tommy,

Thanks for the information about Sam Giancana. I imagine his half brother and nephew wrote down what he told them, plus probably a lot of other stories they'd been told.

But apparently Sam Giancana claimed to have been the brains behind the plot. What that tells me is that he has tendencies to both exaggerate and to aggrandize himself. Because I don't believe for a moment that he was the brains behind the plot.

That doesn't mean, however, that there isn't some truth in what Sam Giancana said. There may be. I don't know.

You say that "We know .... Ruby .... started out being a runner / errand boy for Al Capone." Do we know that for certain?

[Sandy Larsen]

Wasn't Ruby visited in jail by at least one Mafia guy?

[Thomas Graves]

Wasn't Ruby visited in jail by at least one Mafia guy?

Joe Campisi

-- Tommy

[Chris Newton]

Ruby was reported to have been babbling incoherently and generally freaked out about his family's safety right after he was arrested.

Later, Joe Campisi was called by Sheriff Decker and told that Ruby was asking for him and Joe and his wife visited Ruby reportedly for about 10 minutes.

Until Chief Justice Warren shows up to hear his testimony in Dallas in '64, we don't hear of his complaints or fears but right away he indicates he fears for his family's safety, once again.

Who is he afraid of? He killed Oswald. The CIA and LEO are not normally perceived as a threat to one's family.

He begs to be taken into Federal Protective custody and out of Dallas where he can tell the "truth".

I think it's obvious he was scared of the Mob.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Chris Newton

[Kirk Gallaway]

I don't understand the Mafia vs. CIA argument that just occurred here. I thought it was well established that the CIA had Mafia types doing work for them. Doesn't everybody agree with that?

(Sorry to keep the OT going. I just want to know if the above isn't true. Does Chris think the Mafia "did it?" Without the CIA's planning?)

In 1977, the House Select Committee on Assassination’s Chief Counsel Richard Sprague and his deputy Robert K. Tanenbaum were both compelled to resign, soon replaced by G. Robert Blakey. From their early questioning of witnesses and their later public statements, it’s clear that both Sprague and Tanenbaum believed that Amercian Intelligence organizations were involved in the assassination of JFK. Sprague’s replacement, G. Robert Blakey, seemed to indicate that he believed the Mob did it.

Most researchers today, I believe, would agree with the statement that, at the very least, the fingerprints of American Intel are all over this case. So what about the Mob?

There is no question that the CIA made use of the Mob in the 1960s and early 1970s. The most famous of these misadventures probably involved attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro, which were almost comically unsuccessful (enough so to make some people wonder how serious they were).

Ever since Blakey’s HSCA diverted attention from American Intel to the Mob, now half a century ago, the true nature of this crime has been hidden, at least in my opinion. Recently here, a researcher began looking at Jack Ruby’s possible ties to organized crime figures, which I think has been largely a cover story to hide the fact that he was probably some sort of CIA asset. (Though, I suppose, in Jack’s line of work it’s pretty easy to rub elbows with some unsavory characters.) But I believe the whole Mob-did-it thing is just an excuse. I believe Ruby was a mechanic who helped create the events of 11/22/63 in Dallas, including the framing of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” and that he took his directions from the CIA’s David Atlee Phillips via the two men’s mutual friend (and Dallas radio station co-founder) Gordon McLendon.

Interesting thread.

I remember in the 70's when it was divulged that the CIA and organized crime had ties in 60's, it made a lot of sense to me. Still to this day, many have this either/or attitude, as if it had to be one or the other depending on what you believe. I'm reminded in an interview in the later 60's, Garrison bristled and became very adamant about alleged mob complicity. But he didn't deny it either. He just stated the obvious, that the systematic coverup and concealment of evidence could only be carried out with government complicity, and suspected the CIA was the mastermind behind it.

I do agree over investigating JR's mob ties can be a diversion, but in light of the revelations of complicity in the 70's, doesn't it just strengthen the case against the CIA?

[Sandy Larsen]

Ruby was reported to have been babbling incoherently and generally freaked out about his family's safety right after he was arrested.

Later, Joe Campisi was called by Sheriff Decker and told that Ruby was asking for him and Joe and his wife visited Ruby reportedly for about 10 minutes.

Until Chief Justice Warren shows up to hear his testimony in Dallas in '64, we don't hear of his complaints or fears but right away he indicates he fears for his family's safety, once again.

Who is he afraid of? He killed Oswald. The CIA and LEO are not normally perceived as a threat to one's family.

He begs to be taken into Federal Protective custody and out of Dallas where he can tell the "truth".

I think it's obvious he was scared of the Mob.

I agree, Chris.

I haven't spent much time studying Ruby. But from what I have seen, I've gotten the impression that he likely was ordered by the Mob to kill Oswald. The Mob may have been ordered by the CIA to get it done, or may have done it on their own to protect themselves. (I believe that the Mob provided the shooters at the request of the CIA.)

Like everybody else, I wondered why Ruby would do something that would obviously land him in prison or the electric chair. I figured that either he was threatened with being killed himself and was given assurance he later would be pardoned, or the lives of family members were threatened.

I was unaware till now that he'd expressed fear for family members. So what you report here answers that question, I believe.

[Chris Newton]

Interesting. I don't see much follow-up of this Ruby/Oswald lead from a TX Judge:

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57030#relPageId=209&tab=page

[Sandy Larsen]

Interesting. I don't see much follow-up of this Ruby/Oswald lead from a TX Judge:

https://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57030#relPageId=209&tab=page

So Ruby was apparently the guy who paid DPD officers to "look the other way" for organized crime.

And he was "friendly" with the "Syndicate." In other words, not any particular organized crime group, but whichever one wished to do business with him.

It seems Ruby was like a subcontractor for organized crime and the CIA. He did odd jobs.

[Chris Newton]

McKeown & Rather. If I find the video I'll post that here too.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Chris Newton

[Chris Newton]

For Reference only.

a quick look at ancestry.com reveals: