The JFK Autopsy Observations of Lt. Richard Lipsey

[Ron Ecker]

Paul,

I am more inclined to believe that the lone-nut scenario was decided upon after Oswald was arrested. The last thing the conspirators could have wanted (other than JFK surviving) would be the patsy following into the hands of the police. Whatever plan they had to eliminate Oswald (in the TSBD, the Texas Theater, during a "flight to Cuba" via Mexico, or wherever) had to be abandoned, and a new one put into place asap, i.e. Ruby getting an order that he couldn't refuse.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

I am more inclined to believe that the lone-nut scenario was decided upon after Oswald was arrested. The last thing the conspirators could have wanted (other than JFK surviving) would be the patsy following into the hands of the police. Whatever plan they had to eliminate Oswald (in the TSBD, the Texas Theater, during a "flight to Cuba" via Mexico, or wherever) had to be abandoned, and a new one put into place asap, i.e. Ruby getting an order that he couldn't refuse.

Ron, I will counter with a suggestion -- that the Communist Nut scenario was decided before Oswald was arrested.

LHO was fooled (almost certainly by Gerry Patrick Hemming and Loran Hall) into handing over his rifle in the early morning of 11/22/1963. That sealed his fate.

Hemming and Hall (and other Interpen members) were familiar to LHO from his New Orleans period. LHO had trusted them, even though they had already decided to betray LHO that very summer.

Ron Lewis (Flashback, 1993) says that Guy Banister had learned that LHO was General Walker's shooter early in the summer, and joined the plot against LHO very early.

The reason that LHO was chosen to be the Patsy in the first place was because LHO had betrayed his right-wing comrades by participating in the plot (urged by George DeMohrenschildt) to murder General Walker. That was the real reason that Walker insisted that LHO be made the Patsy at all costs.

FBI Agent James Hosty was (according to Penn Jones, Jr.) the bridge partner of Robert Allen Surrey for years. Surrey's office was right there in General Walker's home, which doubled as a warehouse for Walker's American Eagle Publishing Company. Hosty says in his book, Assignment: Oswald (1996), that his main job for the FBI in Dallas was to spy on the radical right. So there is no way that Hosty was ignorant of the plot to make LHO into a Communist Patsy.

James Hosty helped -- and his main role was to lie to the Secret Service PRS when they asked for a report of dangerous people in Dallas prior to JFK's trip there. Hosty replied to them -- twice -- that there were none.

No -- Oswald was set up as the Patsy long before he was arrested. That's my opinion.

But Oswald was set up as a Communist Patsy. That's a far cry from a Lone Nut. There was plenty of evidence of more than three bullets, and the JFK Killers didn't mind this -- a conspiracy of several shooters was OK, as long as they could throw LHO under the bus. But a Cuba-Communist conspiracy was job one for them.

It was a slap in their faces, therefore, when J. Edgar Hoover presented a Lone Nut LHO instead.

Look at the WC testimonies of Dean Rusk, John McCone, Richard Helms, J. Edgar Hoover, Harris Coulter and Llewellyn Thompson, just as a start -- they all emphatically denied that the Communists were involved in the JFK assassination.

This is hard evidence, IMHO, that the FBI was the leader of the Bethesda autopsy fakery, and that the JFK Kill Team was foiled by this "Lone Nut" maneuver.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited September 21, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Ron Ecker]

Paul, I agree that the assassination was intended to look like a Cuban Communist ambush, to incite an invasion of Cuba. But we disagree on why this scenario was abandoned.

But I don't want this thread, which is about Lipsey and his testimony, to be hijacked.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Ron Ecker

[Chris Newton]

LHO was fooled (almost certainly by Gerry Patrick Hemming and Loran Hall) into handing over his rifle in the early morning of 11/22/1963. That sealed his fate.

LOL

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, I agree that the assassination was intended to look like a Cuban Communist ambush, to incite an invasion of Cuba. But we disagree on why this scenario was abandoned.

But I don't want this thread, which is about Lipsey and his testimony, to be hijacked.

You're right about this, Ron.

So, bringing it back to Lipsey -- Lipsey didn't realize that he was supporting the CTers -- he thought he was supporting the LNers.

I think that's what Robert wanted to bring out with this thread.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Robert Prudhomme]

Paul, I agree that the assassination was intended to look like a Cuban Communist ambush, to incite an invasion of Cuba. But we disagree on why this scenario was abandoned.

But I don't want this thread, which is about Lipsey and his testimony, to be hijacked.

You're right about this, Ron.

So, bringing it back to Lipsey -- Lipsey didn't realize that he was supporting the CTers -- he thought he was supporting the LNers.

I think that's what Robert wanted to bring out with this thread.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Precisely, Paul. In fact, I don't think Lipsey was actually "supporting" anyone, CTer or LNer. I don't think it even occurred to him that anyone was doing anything underhanded at the autopsy, even years later in the HSCA interview.

"SECTION 2

LIPSEY: And once again, and I'm sorry, the best I can tell you is my recollection after all these years and obviously some speculation on my part.

The only thing, and it's certainly not going to hold up under any court of law-type thing. But, I can remember when the Warren Commission was formed. Everybody's writing books about it. All the comments on how many times he was shot and the angles. I remember Walter Cronkite doing this big CBS thing on who shot him -- how many directions it came from. I can remember vividly in my mind on literally hundreds of occasions, saying these people are crazy. I watched the autopsy and I know for a fact he was shot three times. And the doctors were firmly convinced they all came out of the same gun because of the type of wounds or the entrances, whatever. I wish I could be more specific. I remember going back to the autopsy. I can remember specifically the next week, the next month. Over the period of the next year or so. Which was when I really remember what went on in the room. These people were crazy.

I can remember in my own mind, they're trying to read something into it that didn't happen. One book came out that he was shot from three different angles, another report came out he was only shot once, another that he was shot seven times. All kinds of…Everybody had their own versions of what happened, how many sounds they heard, and the angles of the fire they came from. I definitely remember the doctors commenting they were convinced that the shots came from the same direction and from the same type of weapon -- and it was three shots."

He does not seem to have ever put a lot of deep thought into the assassination and what he learned at the autopsy. This is why I find him so believable.

[Thomas Graves]

Paul, I agree that the assassination was intended to look like a Cuban Communist ambush, to incite an invasion of Cuba. But we disagree on why this scenario was abandoned.

But I don't want this thread, which is about Lipsey and his testimony, to be hijacked.

You're right about this, Ron.

So, bringing it back to Lipsey -- Lipsey didn't realize that he was supporting the CTers -- he thought he was supporting the LNers.

I think that's what Robert wanted to bring out with this thread.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Precisely, Paul. In fact, I don't think Lipsey was actually "supporting" anyone, CTer or LNer. I don't think it even occurred to him that anyone was doing anything underhanded at the autopsy, even years later in the HSCA interview.

"SECTION 2

LIPSEY: And once again, and I'm sorry, the best I can tell you is my recollection after all these years and obviously some speculation on my part.

The only thing, and it's certainly not going to hold up under any court of law-type thing. But, I can remember when the Warren Commission was formed. Everybody's writing books about it. All the comments on how many times he was shot and the angles. I remember Walter Cronkite doing this big CBS thing on who shot him -- how many directions it came from. I can remember vividly in my mind on literally hundreds of occasions, saying these people are crazy. I watched the autopsy and I know for a fact he was shot three times. And the doctors were firmly convinced they all came out of the same gun because of the type of wounds or the entrances, whatever. I wish I could be more specific. I remember going back to the autopsy. I can remember specifically the next week, the next month. Over the period of the next year or so. Which was when I really remember what went on in the room. These people were crazy.

I can remember in my own mind, they're trying to read something into it that didn't happen. One book came out that he was shot from three different angles, another report came out he was only shot once, another that he was shot seven times. All kinds of…Everybody had their own versions of what happened, how many sounds they heard, and the angles of the fire they came from. I definitely remember the doctors commenting they were convinced that the shots came from the same direction and from the same type of weapon -- and it was three shots."

He does not seem to have ever put a lot of deep thought into the assassination and what he learned at the autopsy. This is why I find him so believable.

Robert,

Regardless of which direction or directions the shots came from, the fact that Lipsey recounts the autopsy doctors' talking about three separate shots to JFK is the critical thing, right? (Taking into consideration the fact that Tague, down by the Triple Underpass, was hit by a piece of concrete blasted off the curb by an errant shot, the fact that there wasn't enough time for four shots from the Carcano, and the implausibility of the Magic Bullet Theory, right?)

Do you believe that all of the shots that hit JFK came from the rear? From the same window? (Just curious.)

-- Tommy

Edited September 22, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Paul, I agree that the assassination was intended to look like a Cuban Communist ambush, to incite an invasion of Cuba. But we disagree on why this scenario was abandoned.

But I don't want this thread, which is about Lipsey and his testimony, to be hijacked.

You're right about this, Ron.

So, bringing it back to Lipsey -- Lipsey didn't realize that he was supporting the CTers -- he thought he was supporting the LNers.

I think that's what Robert wanted to bring out with this thread.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Precisely, Paul. In fact, I don't think Lipsey was actually "supporting" anyone, CTer or LNer. I don't think it even occurred to him that anyone was doing anything underhanded at the autopsy, even years later in the HSCA interview.

"SECTION 2

LIPSEY: And once again, and I'm sorry, the best I can tell you is my recollection after all these years and obviously some speculation on my part.

The only thing, and it's certainly not going to hold up under any court of law-type thing. But, I can remember when the Warren Commission was formed. Everybody's writing books about it. All the comments on how many times he was shot and the angles. I remember Walter Cronkite doing this big CBS thing on who shot him -- how many directions it came from. I can remember vividly in my mind on literally hundreds of occasions, saying these people are crazy. I watched the autopsy and I know for a fact he was shot three times. And the doctors were firmly convinced they all came out of the same gun because of the type of wounds or the entrances, whatever. I wish I could be more specific. I remember going back to the autopsy. I can remember specifically the next week, the next month. Over the period of the next year or so. Which was when I really remember what went on in the room. These people were crazy.

I can remember in my own mind, they're trying to read something into it that didn't happen. One book came out that he was shot from three different angles, another report came out he was only shot once, another that he was shot seven times. All kinds of…Everybody had their own versions of what happened, how many sounds they heard, and the angles of the fire they came from. I definitely remember the doctors commenting they were convinced that the shots came from the same direction and from the same type of weapon -- and it was three shots."

He does not seem to have ever put a lot of deep thought into the assassination and what he learned at the autopsy. This is why I find him so believable.

Robert,

Regardless of which direction or directions the shots came from, the fact that Lipsey recounts the autopsy doctors' talking about three separate shots to JFK is the critical thing, right? (Taking into consideration the fact that Tague, down by the Triple Underpass, was hit by a piece of concrete blasted off the curb by an errant shot, the fact that there wasn't enough time for four shots from the Carcano, and the implausibility of the Magic Bullet Theory, right?)

Do you believe that all of the shots that hit JFK came from the rear? From the same window? (Just curious.)

-- Tommy

Nope.

[Thomas Graves]

Paul, I agree that the assassination was intended to look like a Cuban Communist ambush, to incite an invasion of Cuba. But we disagree on why this scenario was abandoned.

But I don't want this thread, which is about Lipsey and his testimony, to be hijacked.

You're right about this, Ron.

So, bringing it back to Lipsey -- Lipsey didn't realize that he was supporting the CTers -- he thought he was supporting the LNers.

I think that's what Robert wanted to bring out with this thread.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Precisely, Paul. In fact, I don't think Lipsey was actually "supporting" anyone, CTer or LNer. I don't think it even occurred to him that anyone was doing anything underhanded at the autopsy, even years later in the HSCA interview.

"SECTION 2

LIPSEY: And once again, and I'm sorry, the best I can tell you is my recollection after all these years and obviously some speculation on my part.

The only thing, and it's certainly not going to hold up under any court of law-type thing. But, I can remember when the Warren Commission was formed. Everybody's writing books about it. All the comments on how many times he was shot and the angles. I remember Walter Cronkite doing this big CBS thing on who shot him -- how many directions it came from. I can remember vividly in my mind on literally hundreds of occasions, saying these people are crazy. I watched the autopsy and I know for a fact he was shot three times. And the doctors were firmly convinced they all came out of the same gun because of the type of wounds or the entrances, whatever. I wish I could be more specific. I remember going back to the autopsy. I can remember specifically the next week, the next month. Over the period of the next year or so. Which was when I really remember what went on in the room. These people were crazy.

I can remember in my own mind, they're trying to read something into it that didn't happen. One book came out that he was shot from three different angles, another report came out he was only shot once, another that he was shot seven times. All kinds of…Everybody had their own versions of what happened, how many sounds they heard, and the angles of the fire they came from. I definitely remember the doctors commenting they were convinced that the shots came from the same direction and from the same type of weapon -- and it was three shots."

He does not seem to have ever put a lot of deep thought into the assassination and what he learned at the autopsy. This is why I find him so believable.

Robert,

Regardless of which direction or directions the shots came from, the fact that Lipsey recounts the autopsy doctors' talking about three separate shots to JFK is the critical thing, right? (Taking into consideration the fact that Tague, down by the Triple Underpass, was hit by a piece of concrete blasted off the curb by an errant shot, the fact that there wasn't enough time for four shots from the Carcano, and the implausibility of the Magic Bullet Theory, right?)

Do you believe that all of the shots that hit JFK came from the rear? From the same window? (Just curious.)

-- Tommy

Nope.

Dear Robert,

Which part nope?

-- Tommy

[Cliff Varnell]

He does not seem to have ever put a lot of deep thought into the assassination and what he learned at the autopsy. This is why I find him so believable.

Out of 16 back wound witnesses only one(1) put the back wound at the base of the neck.

Richard Lipsey.

Please provide proof this prevaricating s.o.s. was even at the autopsy.

[Cliff Varnell]

Richard Lipsey: "I definitely remember the doctors commenting they were convinced that the shots came from the same direction and from the same type of weapon -- and it was three shots."

That's a flat out prevarication.

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's sworn affidavit for the HSCA:

<quote on>

Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general

feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning

the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" [sic]

bullet, one which dissolves after contact.

<quote off>

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's sworn affidavit for the HSCAt:

<quote on>

The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused

by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments

completely....Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I

left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch [sic]

Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that

would almost completely fragmentize (sic).

<quote off>

Lipsey is a serial prevaricator.

[Ron Ecker]

Cliff,

You raise an interesting issue.

The Sibert-O’Neill Report includes a list of those who were at the autopsy, and Lipsey is not on the list. The report specifically states that the two FBI agents and three Secret Service agents “were the only personnel other than medical personnel present during the autopsy.”

It mentions General Wehle once:

“Major General WEHLE, Commanding Officer of U.S. Military District, Washington,D.C., entered the autopsy room to ascertain from the Secret Service arrangements concerning the transportation of the President’s body back to the White House.”

You would think that Sibert and O’Neill would have noticed Lipsey at least once, particularly when he and Lt. Sam Bird (also not on the list) were eating their hamburgers.

http://22november1963.org.uk/sibert-and-oneill-report

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff,

You raise an interesting issue.

The Sibert-O’Neill Report includes a list of those who were at the autopsy, and Lipsey is not on the list. The report specifically states that the two FBI agents and three Secret Service agents “were the only personnel other than medical personnel present during the autopsy.”

It mentions General Wehle once:

“Major General WEHLE, Commanding Officer of U.S. Military District, Washington,D.C., entered the autopsy room to ascertain from the Secret Service arrangements concerning the transportation of the President’s body back to the White House.”

You would think that Sibert and O’Neill would have noticed Lipsey at least once, particularly when he and Lt. Sam Bird (also not on the list) were eating their hamburgers.

http://22november1963.org.uk/sibert-and-oneill-report

The man who wasn't there.

[Chris Newton]

here's some ARRB notes on Lipsey concerning the exact issues we are raising:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=43608&search=Lipsey#relPageId=7&tab=page

[Robert Prudhomme]

Three shots had to become two shots. I'm surprised Lipsey never met with an unfortunate "accidenr".

Edited September 22, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme