The JFK Autopsy Observations of Lt. Richard Lipsey

[Ron Ecker]

Ron:

If you think Hoover really gave a FF about what happened to President Kennedy, then you should ask yourself why he was at the racetrack the next day.

Think he was going through that list between his two dollar bets?

Being that Hoover was involved in the cover-up (if not in the crime itself), I imagine he sure as hell cared what took place at the autopsy, which is why he had Sibert and O'Neill there to report. With things seemingly in hand the next day, there was no reason for him not to go to the racetrack with a feeling of euphoria.

BTW I am not arguing that Lipsey was not at the autopsy. I'm trying to weigh the evidence for and against him being in the room.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Ron Ecker

[Cliff Varnell]

"How would he know where the bullet went? That was the big mystery!"

You really don't read anything at all, Cliff.

Lipsey described the autopsy doctors discussing following a wound track that ranged downward into JFK's chest and then disappeared.

And Lipsey is a proven prevaricator.

James Curtis Jenkins interviewed by David Lifton, Best Evidence, pg 713

<quote on, emphasis added>

Jenkins: I remember looking inside the chest cavity and I could see the probe...through the pleura [the lining of the chest cavity].

Lifton: Explain that to me. You could see the probe that he was putting in the wound? You could see it through the pleura?

Jenkins: You could actually see where it was making an indentation.

Lifton: ...an indentation on the pleura.

Jenkins: Right...where it was pushing the skin up...There was no entry into the chest cavity...it would have been no way that that could have exited in the front because it was then too low in the chest cavity...somewhere around the junction of the descending aorta or bronchus in the lungs.

Lifton: Did you hear Humes say he could feel the bottom of it with his fingers?

Jenkins: Yes, I did.

<quote off>

Add James Curtis Jenkins to the long list of witnesses the Pet Theorists must bash.

I'm sorry but, the medical reports and WC testimony from Drs. Perry and Carrico, Parkland Memorial Hospital, cannot be interpreted in any other way than JFK having a serious respiratory emergency in his right lung known as a "tension pneumothorax", which could only have been brought on by a projectile entering his right pleural cavity.

Excuse me, Doctor Prudhomme, but I think a second opinion is in order here.

From the WC testimony of Dr. Malcolm Perry:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Mr. SPECTER - What is pneumothorax?

Dr. PERRY - Hemothorax would be blood in the free chest cavity and pneumothorax would be air in the free chest cavity underlying collapse of the lungs.

Mr. SPECTER - Would that have been caused by the injury which you noted to the President's trachea?

Dr. PERRY - There was no evidence of a hemothorax or a pneumothorax my examination; only it is sufficient this could have been observed because of the free blood in the mediastinum.

<quote off>

It also means, unfortunately, that your witness Jenkins was not telling the truth when he claimed he saw a probe pushing against an intact parietal pleural membrane on the right side of JFK's chest cavity.

But Perry found no evidence of a collapsed lung.

"Agonal breathing" is commonly caused by cardiac arrest.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/362416-agonal-breathing-definition/

It is only an inch or slightly more from the outside skin of the human back, at the level of the T3 vertebra, to the parietal membrane. Don't you find it rather miraculous that the projectile that entered JFK's back was able to open a wound track right up to this membrane, to which a probe could be inserted, yet the projectile never penetrated this membrane?

Consistent with a non-conventional round.

It's about the thickness of a sheet of paper on a deer, and can easily be cut through with a knife.

So?

It's a shame you are either unwilling or unable to comprehend medical evidence, Cliff. Perry and Carrico basically told us everything we need to know about the back wound, yet you continue to ignore them. Or are they prevaricators too?

I don't agree with your armchair diagnosis, Doctor Prudhomme.

Neither did Dr. Perry.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Dr. Malcolm Perry testified he found no evidence of a pneumothorax in JFK's right pleural cavity, for the simple fact he did not explore the pleural cavity. The only way to actually verify a pneumothorax would be at the point they opened the chest cavity to repair the damage to the collapsed lung. Being a professional, Perry would not claim he had evidence of a pneumothorax until he was able to verify it surgically.

HOWEVER, Perry and Carrico observed several signs and indications of a tension pneumothorax in the right pleural cavity, as well as a right haemothorax, and of a collapsed right lung.

1. JFK's trachea was observed by Perry to be deviated to JFK's left, requiring Perry to sever the left strap muscle in order to access the trachea during the tracheotomy procedure.

2. Following intubation of JFK with an endotracheal tube, and connection of that tube to a respirator, Dr. Carrico listened to JFK's chest with a stethoscope to assess his breathing. He found breath sounds to be reduced, especially on the right side, indicating a developing tension pneumothorax as a result of the positive pressure breathing provided by the respirator.

3. Following the tracheotomy incision, Perry observed free air and blood in the "mediastinum".

As this diagram shows, the mediastinum is the space between the two pleural cavities containing the two lungs, and it contains the heart, trachea and major blood vessels.

As this diagram shows, there is only one opening into a pleural cavity, and that opening opens into the mediastinum and is called the "hilum" of the lung. Through this opening passes pulmonary arteries and veins, as well as the bronchus bringing air to and from the trachea. As all of these things enter through the hilum in a bundle, there is not a perfect seal made by the hilum between the pleural cavity and the mediastinum.

In the case of a lung injury, such as sustained by JFK, there would be a buildup of blood in the pleural cavity (haemothorax) and air pressure (tension pneumothorax) and both would have a very good chance of escaping through the hilum and into the mediastinum, as observed by Perry.

THIS is why, upon observing free air and blood in the mediastinum, Perry immediately requested the insertion of a right chest tube, and that this chest tube be connected to sealed underwater drainage.

"Dr. PERRY - At this point, I had entered the neck, and Dr. Baxter and Dr. McClelland arrived shortly thereafter. I cannot describe with accuracy their exact arrival. I only know I looked up and saw Dr. Baxter as I began the tracheotomy and he took a pair of gloves to assist me.

Dr. McClelland's presence was known to me at the time he picked up an instrument and said, "Here, I will hand it to you."
At that point I was down in the trachea. Once the trachea had been exposed I took the knife and incised the windpipe at the point of the bullet injury. And asked that the endotracheal tube previously placed by Dr. Carrico be withdrawn slightly so I could insert a tracheotomy tube at this level. This was effected and attached to an anesthesia machine which had been brought down by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke for better control of circulation.
I noticed there was free air and blood in the right mediastinum and although I could not see any evidence, myself any evidence, of it in the pleura of the lung the presence of this blood in this area could be indicative of the underlying condition.
I asked someone to put in a chest tube to allow sealed drainage of any blood or air which might be accumulated in the right hemothorax.
This occurred while I was doing the tracheotomy. I did not know at the time when I inserted the tube but I was informed subsequently that Dr. Paul Peters, assistant professor of urology, and Dr. Charles Baxter, previously noted in this record, inserted the chest tube and attached it to underwater seal or drainage of the right pneumothorax. "

Uh oh, Cliff, do my eyes deceive me? Did Perry actually say he wanted a right chest tube inserted to drain the "right haemothorax" and the "right pneumothorax"????

Edited September 23, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme

[James DiEugenio]

Ron:

If you think Hoover really gave a FF about what happened to President Kennedy, then you should ask yourself why he was at the racetrack the next day.

Think he was going through that list between his two dollar bets?

Being that Hoover was involved in the cover-up (if not in the crime itself), I imagine he sure as hell cared what took place at the autopsy, which is why he had Sibert and O'Neill there to report. With things seemingly in hand the next day, there was no reason for him not to go to the racetrack with a feeling of euphoria.

BTW I am not arguing that Lipsey was not at the autopsy. I'm trying to weigh the evidence for and against him being in the room.

Ron:

The FBI did not have either autopsy report--TIppit or JFK--when they issued their summary report!

Hoover did not give a rat's butt how he covered up those cases. As long as he covered them up somehow.

So no, I don't think he called in either guy to review their work. And no, I don't think the Sibert-ONeill report is precise or inclusive of who was in that room.

[Ron Ecker]

I don't think the Sibert-ONeill report is precise or inclusive of who was in that room.

Then they should have just included their list, if they wanted to make one, in their report and let it go. The only reason I can think of for Sibert and O'Neill to make a categorical statement that they must have known wasn't true (that only FBI, SS, and medical personnel were in the room) is because they were told to write that statement or someone added it for them. And the only reason I can think of for that is to cover-up the presence of certain people whose main interest might be in having a sham autopsy, which is certainly what they got.

[James DiEugenio]

I agree.

But we know that the Sibert ONeill report is wrong on this from a direct witness who was intricately involved.

His name is Pierre Finck.

Part of the pure gold he dispensed at the Clay Shaw trial was the fact that there were both Admirals and Generals in the room and they were interfering with the autopsy. (Destiny Betrayed, pgs. 300-301)

I mean does't anyone read my books here? There is some good info in them.

[Ron Ecker]

I agree.

But we know that the Sibert ONeill report is wrong on this from a direct witness who was intricately involved.

His name is Pierre Finck.

Part of the pure gold he dispensed at the Clay Shaw trial was the fact that there were both Admirals and Generals in the room and they were interfering with the autopsy. (Destiny Betrayed, pgs. 300-301)

I mean does't anyone read my books here? There is some good info in them.

That's very interesting info from Finck. I now recall reading that at one point in time but had forgotten it. Now with Finck in mind, let's go back to Lipsey's testimony:

"The only other person that I can remember besides the doctors, and there were the team of doctors that worked on the body, the only other person that I can remember, beside the doctors was inside of the room was a 1st Lt. Sam Bird."

Does it make any sense at all to you that with admirals and generals in the room, the only military person that Lipsey could remember being there was a first lieutenant?

[Robert Prudhomme]

I agree.

But we know that the Sibert ONeill report is wrong on this from a direct witness who was intricately involved.

His name is Pierre Finck.

Part of the pure gold he dispensed at the Clay Shaw trial was the fact that there were both Admirals and Generals in the room and they were interfering with the autopsy. (Destiny Betrayed, pgs. 300-301)

I mean does't anyone read my books here? There is some good info in them.

That's very interesting info from Finck. I now recall reading that at one point in time but had forgotten it. Now with Finck in mind, let's go back to Lipsey's testimony:

"The only other person that I can remember besides the doctors, and there were the team of doctors that worked on the body, the only other person that I can remember, beside the doctors was inside of the room was a 1st Lt. Sam Bird."

Does it make any sense at all to you that with admirals and generals in the room, the only military person that Lipsey could remember being there was a first lieutenant?

Hi Ron

Is it possible that what he means by "that I can remember" is that the people he mentions (Lt. Sam Bird, the doctors) are the only ones who stand out as identifiable in his memory? Even if he wasn't in the autopsy room, and was standing outside, he must have known there was a small crowd in there, and if he was "prevaricating", as some claim, he would be pretty stupid not to include this detail.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme

[Chris Newton]

Does it make any sense at all to you that with admirals and generals in the room, the only military person that Lipsey could remember being there was a first lieutenant?

That Lipsey, also an Lt., remembers another Lt. might not be too surprising.

As far as which military were in uniform and which were in civvies, how would Lipsey know unless he knew them personally? I don't think the Admiral Burkely was in uniform and Lemay had just flown back to DC from a hunting trip (so he says).

I'm curious as to event they saw during the autopsy that prompted Lipsey and his boss, Gen. Wehle to agree about this:

Still, I felt that if it should be told to anyone, it should be told to authorized persons such as yourself. For that reason, and Gen Wehle and I kind of agreed we would never discuss it among ourselves. It’s never been discussed with anybody. And I certainly would not want my comments made public. I don’t think they should be.

[Sandy Larsen]

The Umbrella Man was not acting in any official capacity in Dealey Plaza that day.

OTOH, Lt. Lipsey had a very high profile position as aide to Maj. Gen. Wehle, and it might be a little bit more difficult for Lipsey to simply fudge the details of his whereabouts in Washington, DC for 3-4 hours, especially on the night of JFK's autopsy.

We can argue back and forth, but I think it's very significant that Sibert and O'Neill, according to their report, were completely unaware of the presence in the room throughout the autopsy of a uniformed military officer, particularly one whom an Army general (Wehle) came in periodically to relieve. (According to Sibert and O'Neill, Wehle entered the room once, to confer with the Secret Service.)

We also have to believe that Sibert and O'Neill were completely unaware of another uniformed officer in the room, Lt. Sam Bird.

It comes down to whom do we believe, Sibert and O'Neill or Lipsey.

Ron,

The whole room was buzzing with people. I doubt very much that Sibert and O'Neill kept any kind of comprehensive list.

To suggest Lipsey wasn't there is ridiculous.

That's par for the course around here, Sandy. There are all kinds of ridiculous suggestions on this forum.

I recall now reports that there were some guys in suits (most likely SS or CIA) who were in an attached room and were keeping tabs on everybody who entered of left the autopsy room.

[Sandy Larsen]

From the WC testimony of Dr. Malcolm Perry:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Mr. SPECTER - What is pneumothorax?

Dr. PERRY - Hemothorax would be blood in the free chest cavity and pneumothorax would be air in the free chest cavity underlying collapse of the lungs.

Mr. SPECTER - Would that have been caused by the injury which you noted to the President's trachea?

Dr. PERRY - There was no evidence of a hemothorax or a pneumothorax my examination; only it is sufficient this could have been observed because of the free blood in the mediastinum.

<quote off>

Cliff,

Why do you suppose the subject of pneumothorax even came up? It's obvious from everything we know (all the testimony presented by Robert) that Kennedy was treated for pneumothorax. It's obvious (from further testimony presented by Robert) that Humes tried to make the pneumothorax disappear. And now, it's obvious (from the testimony you are providing) that the WC got Perry to sign off on this disappearing act. Or at least play a little dumb.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Pat Speer]

The HSCA report on the medical evidence says that the HSCA's own investigation led to their locating two additional witnesses to the autopsy beyond those mentioned in the Sibert/O'Neill report. These two witnesses were Richard Lipsey and Sam Bird. Anyone assuming their investigation to have been in error should first find out what it entailed. As it is, we have no reason to believe it was in error, IMO. There is certainly more reason to believe Lipsey--who never sought attention--than someone like Audrey Bell--whose latter-day recollections made little sense.

I looked at the online editions of the HSCA report and could find no link relating to the autopsy. I went to the report on the Mary Ferrell site and searched the document for "Lipsey." There were "no results found."

If you could be more specific on where the info on Lipsey is found, it would be appreciated.

It's in vol.7 pages 8 and 9.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=82&search=Lipsey#relPageId=18&tab=page

Edited September 24, 2016 by Pat Speer

[Robert Prudhomme]

The HSCA report on the medical evidence says that the HSCA's own investigation led to their locating two additional witnesses to the autopsy beyond those mentioned in the Sibert/O'Neill report. These two witnesses were Richard Lipsey and Sam Bird. Anyone assuming their investigation to have been in error should first find out what it entailed. As it is, we have no reason to believe it was in error, IMO. There is certainly more reason to believe Lipsey--who never sought attention--than someone like Audrey Bell--whose latter-day recollections made little sense.

I looked at the online editions of the HSCA report and could find no link relating to the autopsy. I went to the report on the Mary Ferrell site and searched the document for "Lipsey." There were "no results found."

If you could be more specific on where the info on Lipsey is found, it would be appreciated.

It's in vol.7 pages 8 and 9.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=82&search=Lipsey#relPageId=18&tab=page

Thanks, Pat.

[Sandy Larsen]

The HSCA report on the medical evidence says that the HSCA's own investigation led to their locating two additional witnesses to the autopsy beyond those mentioned in the Sibert/O'Neill report. These two witnesses were Richard Lipsey and Sam Bird. Anyone assuming their investigation to have been in error should first find out what it entailed. As it is, we have no reason to believe it was in error, IMO. There is certainly more reason to believe Lipsey--who never sought attention--than someone like Audrey Bell--whose latter-day recollections made little sense.

I looked at the online editions of the HSCA report and could find no link relating to the autopsy. I went to the report on the Mary Ferrell site and searched the document for "Lipsey." There were "no results found."

If you could be more specific on where the info on Lipsey is found, it would be appreciated.

It's in vol.7 pages 8 and 9.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=82&search=Lipsey#relPageId=18&tab=page

Many thanks for finding that, Pat.

[Sandy Larsen]

I agree.

But we know that the Sibert ONeill report is wrong on this from a direct witness who was intricately involved.

His name is Pierre Finck.

Part of the pure gold he dispensed at the Clay Shaw trial was the fact that there were both Admirals and Generals in the room and they were interfering with the autopsy. (Destiny Betrayed, pgs. 300-301)

I mean does't anyone read my books here? There is some good info in them.

I read Destiny Betrayed Jim. And found it agreed with what I'd already learned, and it added much more to my knowledge. It was probably from Destiny Betrayed that I learned of the Admirals and Generals interfering with the autopsy.

Quick question for you: Did Pierre Finck reveal that JFK's personal physician Admiral George Burkley pretty much took charge of the autopsy? Someone mentioned that being the case the other day. (Ashton Gray I believe.)