Yes, Oswald was an Intelligence agent

[Chris Newton]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Are you sure you’ve got the right John Hurt?

Here’s the slip Mrs. Swinney filled out at the Dallas jail:

I can plainly see that the John B. Hurt (Va.), see above, is NOT John D. Hurt or John W. Hurt. It's just another "coincidence", right?

 

P.S.  Mrs. Swinney didn't fill it out that slip.

 

 

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 5:11 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

...I'm going to let Mr. Trejo have the last word in our debate.

Jim,

Thanks for the last word.  In conclusion, I agree that, yes, Lee Harvey Oswald was an Intelligence Agent -- a beginner -- at one point in his short life, namely, when he went to the USSR in a fake defection.

He just was never a CIA Agent.

I don't know how LHO fell out of the graces of the Intelligence Community, but it is clear from his squalid circumstances after his return to the USA that they had written LHO off of their list.  He not only worked minimum wage jobs, but he could not even keep them, even with a wife and a baby and a baby on the way.  He kept job-hopping.  LHO lived in dire poverty.

So, I suspect that the break came about when LHO returned to the USA in 1962 -- LHO had probably broken his contract with the ONI, and left his "dangle" mission because he wanted to show off the USA to his new Russian bride.

For this reason, IMHO, the honorable discharge that LHO obtained in 1959 was downgraded in 1962 to "undesirable."  This broke young LHO's heart.  I can find no other explanation for this event other than that the ONI was disappointed by LHO's performance as a "dangle" in the USSR.

LHO did everything he could to get back into the Intelligence Community there in Dallas and New Orleans.  LHO worked very closely with George DeMohrenschildt, whom he mistakenly thought was his ticket back into the Intelligence Community.  LHO had no clue that George DeMohrenschildt was an amoral aristocrat who was only out for himself.  Yet George DeMohrenschildt and his young, oil engineer friends (e.g. Volkmar Schmidt) openly condemned General Walker to the impressionable LHO.

LHO then sprung into action.  He ordered a rifle and a pistol.  He made a fake ID for Alek J. Hidell.  He made maps and photos of General Walker's house.  He made the BYP.  He attempted to infiltrate the CPUSA and the SWP by writing to their newspapers, and he sent the SWP newspaper one of his BYP.  He gave Roscoe White (his body-double in this Red infiltration scheme) one of his BYP.  He signed one BYP and gave it to George DeMohrenschildt.  He gave Marina a signed copy of the BYP for baby June, but otherwise he kept Marina in the dark about his purpose.

LHO certainly did, IMHO, try to assassinate General Walker.  General Walker found out about it that very weekend (either from the FBI via the Voshinins, as Dick Russell wrote in 1993, or from Roscoe White, who would have known).  General Walker immediately arranged with Guy Banister and David Ferrie to take charge of LHO there in New Orleans.  It was tailor-made.

In New Orleans, LHO was thoroughly sheep-dipped as a Communist.  To this very day, the most common story about LHO is that he was a Communist.  (The second most common story is that he was a CIA Agent.)  Nothing could be further from the Truth. 

LHO worked at 544 Camp Street in a Fake FPCC.  It wasn't only Jim Garrison who told the world this fact in 1968 -- but actually J.. Edgar Hoover himself told the world this fact in 1964, right there in his testimony to the Warren Commission.

Hoover knew that LHO wasn't a Communist.  Hoover knew that LHO wasn't a real officer of the FPCC.   It's in his WC testimony. 

LHO was attempting to infiltrate the Communists -- but not on the orders of the Intelligence Community, because they had already written LHO off of their lists.  Instead, it was at the orders of Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, and their den at 544 Camp Street -- with a wink and a nod from David Atlee Phillips, who vainly hoped that LHO could really get into Cuba and help an inside team whack Fidel Castro.

That wasn't part of the plan.

The fate and doom of LHO was to return to Dallas and await further instructions.  James Hosty would ensure for Robert Alan Surrey and General Walker that the Secret Service PRS would not knock on their doors two weeks before the JFK motorcade through Dallas. 

Gerry Patrick Hemming would contact LHO on Thursday, 11/21/1963 to offer LHO double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if he would hand it over at the TSBD the next morning.  LHO would pay with his life for his attempted assassination of General Walker.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 7, 2016 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Jim Hargrove]

The trouble with your theory is that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was a spectacular success on his Mission to Moscow.  He gained entry to the USSR through extraordinary personal effort, was permitted to work and mingle with other workers at a large radio factory in Minsk (enabling him to prepare a detailed report on the life of Russian workers), and he eventually brought back to America a young Russian wife with obvious connections to Russian intelligence.  Pretty much a grand slam!

His unique personal history (see HarveyandLee.net) obviously made low-wage jobs acceptable to him, giving him the appearance of being anything other than a Federal employee, although--no surprise here--when it came time to go on another Mission to Moscow (or Cuba) in 1963, he once again apparently had the money to do so.  Remarkable on minimum wage, eh?  Remarkable too that the United States government would allow this returning "defector" to travel back to Cuba and the USSR.

Why don’t you take another stab at answering the issues below honestly.

 

        18 Facts Indicating “Lee Harvey Oswald” was a CIA Agent
 

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott said he made payments to an encrypted account--code name RX ZIM--for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.” 

2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

3. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.

4. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 

5. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.

6. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and no doubt monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.

7. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.  

8.  FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.

9.  Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.

10. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.

11. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

12. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.

13. CIA Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, but the CIA ignored his warnings.

14.  LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved.  In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.

15.  To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.”  What utter bs….

16.  After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again! 

17. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA.  Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”

18. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, and “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.

[Sandy Larsen]

I don't think researchers should assume that Oswald was on the verge of being homeless. If he was a CIA agent (and I believe he was), then he had a cover to maintain. His cover was that he, like many his age, lived paycheck to paycheck and was susceptible to layoffs and being fired.

How an undercover agent is compensated for his work is a mystery to me. I suspect that his pay is deposited to a bank account to which he'll have access once he discontinues his undercover work.

My question is, why was Oswald chosen to be sacrificed?

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

My question is, why was Oswald chosen to be sacrificed?

I’ve thought about this a lot and I’m afraid it was a brilliant choice for several reasons.

1. With his trip to Russia, staged FPCC activities, and commie-loving history going all the way back to the Marine Corps, it was easy to paint the Russian-speaking Oswald as a commie with ties to Castro, which is exactly what happened.  LBJ had to intervene to prevent a possible war with Cuba and maybe even the Soviets.

2. Oswald’s ties to both the FBI and the CIA made G-men, especially J. Edgar Hoover, all too happy to enter full scale cover-up mode.

3. Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald had demonstrated that he would follow even difficult orders, critical in the days and hours before and immediately after the assassination. (He absolutely had to be in the right places at the right times to become a successful patsy.  And a patsy was absolutely critical for the plot to succeed.  Without one, the search for the plotters would have been relentless.)

4.  The “Harvey and Lee” project (JA suspects it was controlled by David Atlee Phillips) made it simple to send around a fellow who looked like Russian-speaking Oswald in the weeks prior to the hit to set him up as the assassin-to-be.  For example….

• The Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target;
• Morgan's Gun Shop in Fort Worth on Nov 2.
• The Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership also on Nov. 2 where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car.
• The Irving Furniture Mart On Nov. 6 or 7 for a gun part where he was referred to the shop where Dial Ryder worked.
• The Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) on Nov. 15 to apply for a job and oh-so-subtly ask how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.
• Hitchhiking on Nov. 20 on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4-foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introducing himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald.” He discussed the President's visit, wondered if you could shoot a president, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already at work).

I just watched the 1973 motion picture “Executive Action” with Burt Lancaster and Robert Ryan.  It does a great job showing how an “Oswald” look-alike traveled around Dallas in the weeks before the assassination doing many of the things listed above. 

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 10:23 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

I don't think researchers should assume that Oswald was on the verge of being homeless. If he was a CIA agent (and I believe he was), then he had a cover to maintain. His cover was that he, like many his age, lived paycheck to paycheck and was susceptible to layoffs and being fired.

How an undercover agent is compensated for his work is a mystery to me. I suspect that his pay is deposited to a bank account to which he'll have access once he discontinues his undercover work.

My question is, why was Oswald chosen to be sacrificed?

Sandy,

The real answer has to be that the CIA agent theory of LHO is mistaken.

LHO really was a poverty-stricken bumpkin.  He never kept any job more than six months in his life.  He didn't have the discipline.  Marina was desperate when baby Rachel was about to be born -- they had no money and no health insurance and she had no doctor.  Think about that.  That's no cover, when your wife is suffering like a caged animal. That's reality.

If not for Ruth Paine, we may suppose that Marina Oswald could have died in childbirth.

As for your question -- why was LHO sacrificed -- the best explanation is that the CIA never sacrifices real CIA agents -- so it wasn't the CIA who sacrificed LHO.  It was somebody else who sacrificed LHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Chris Newton]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

If not for Ruth Paine, we may suppose that Marina Oswald could have died in childbirth.

???

 

Did you see this in your crystal ball?  Why use "we", ("we may suppose" ), when you know full well no one else supports this?

 

I think I can make an argument that there should be a new word, a "Trejo-ism", a statement based on six "If"s and a "then maybe".

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

LHO really was a poverty-stricken bumpkin.  He never kept any job more than six months in his life.  He didn't have the discipline.

 

Excuse me?  By your own admission, he kept his job as a U.S. spy on a Mission to Moscow for two and a half years.  It was a courageous and brilliant performance for such a young man!

We all know exactly how his country rewarded him.

[Paul Brancato]

George DeM thought he was very intelligent.

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Excuse me?  By your own admission, he kept his job as a U.S. spy on a Mission to Moscow for two and a half years.  It was a courageous and brilliant performance for such a young man!

We all know exactly how his country rewarded him.

Jim,

Don't misquote me, please.  My stated opinion is that LHO quit his job as an ONI spy in Moscow, and that was why his Marine discharge was downgraded, and that was why LHO lived in desperate poverty, and that was why Marina Oswald had no money, no insurance and no doctor just weeks before baby Rachel was born.

LHO was too proud even to ask his own brother and mother for help when his wife and unborn baby desperately needed family help.  If it wasn't for Ruth Paine, a tragedy would have occurred, most likely. 

It wasn't the USA who betrayed LHO -- it was General Walker -- but actually one can actually argue that because LHO really did try to kill General Walker, it wasn't really a betrayal, it was simple revenge.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

[Jim Hargrove]

The Warren Commission was so anxious not to disclose that "Oswald" had been framed for the Walker shooting it didn't even bother to ask the Dallas cops who took the Walker bullet into evidence why that bullet was a steel-clad bullet instead of the copper-clad bullet now at the National Archives and supposedly retrieved from Walker's home.

General Walker didn't put the U.S. Government to sleep for more than 50 years.  Your insistence that Marina's testimony can be trusted is at odds not only with the vast majority of private researchers, but also contrary to the expressed opinions of both the Warren Commission and the HSCA.

 

[Paul Trejo]

12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The Warren Commission was so anxious not to disclose that "Oswald" had been framed for the Walker shooting it didn't even bother to ask the Dallas cops who took the Walker bullet into evidence why that bullet was a steel-clad bullet instead of the copper-clad bullet now at the National Archives and supposedly retrieved from Walker's home.

General Walker didn't put the U.S. Government to sleep for more than 50 years.  Your insistence that Marina's testimony can be trusted is at odds not only with the vast majority of private researchers, but also contrary to the expressed opinions of both the Warren Commission and the HSCA.

Jim,

We agree that the so-called Walker bullet cannot be used as evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald, and even the expert witnesses of the Warren Commission admitted this unanimously.   This is nothing new.

We also agree that General Walker wasn't the source of the Warren Commission fiction of a "Lone Nut" Oswald.   Walker openly opposed that fiction, and even in his own WC testimony he repeatedly insisted on his own fiction -- that the JFK assassination was a "Communist Conspiracy."

As for Marina Oswald's credibility -- I am far from the only member of this Forum who defends her.   The case is not "Everybody vs Trejo" -- not by a long shot.  There is no consensus that Marina Oswald committed perjury before the Warren Commission.  Not even close.  Marina Oswald's testimony is defensible.  If you wish to question that, I'm willing to take her sworn testimony line by line.

Besides, the main evidence from Marina that I've posed in the current thread was that she was eight months pregnant with baby Rachel Oswald in September 1963, and had no money, no health insurance and no doctor.  Are you saying that was perjury?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 9, 2016 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Jim Hargrove]

On 10/27/2016 at 11:09 AM, Paul Trejo said:

Again -- the Walker bullet has nothing to do with the case against Lee Harvey Oswald in the Walker shooting. To keep raising it up again is to live in denial.

Marina Oswald could only tell what she was told by LHO, namely: (1) that he shot at Walker: (2) that he had no accomplices: (3) that he was on foot; and (4) that he buried his rifle.

Marina Oswald honestly reported those four claims -- but she had no idea that the last three claims were deliberate falsehoods by LHO himself.

Your words above are from page 11 of this very thread.

Yet in the last paragraph of your post just above this one, you write: "Besides, the main evidence from Marina that I've posed in the current thread was that she was eight months pregnant with baby Rachel Oswald in September 1963, and had no money, no health insurance and no doctor.  Are you saying that was perjury?"

 Why do you keep changing your story?

Edited November 9, 2016 by Jim Hargrove

[Paul Trejo]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Your words above are from page 11 of this very thread.

Yet in the last paragraph of your post just above this one, you write: "Besides, the main evidence from Marina that I've posed in the current thread was that she was eight months pregnant with baby Rachel Oswald in September 1963, and had no money, no health insurance and no doctor.  Are you saying that was perjury?"

 Why do you keep changing your story?

Jim,

I didn't change my story -- read my words again.  I said that Lee lied to Marina, and she honestly told what Lee said to her -- she had no idea it was so many lies.  It's not Marina's fault that Lee lied to her.

Yet your viewpoint, like John Armstrong's, is just suspicious of everything in the Warren Commission volumes.  It's not enough to reject the "Lone Nut" conclusion, which we almost all reject -- you and Armstrong reject all testimony, as if every line of the 26 volumes was a carefully laid CIA plot.  It's overboard.

Not only do I believe every word of WC testimony that Marina Oswald said (i.e. that she always told the truth as she knew it -- not that she was always correct), but I also believe every word of WC testimony that Ruth Paine said, and that George DeMohrenschildt said, and that Michael Paine said, and that Jeanne DeMorhenschildt, and that Sylvia Odio said.

I also believe everything that Volkmar Schmidt said later to FRONTLINE and to our own Bill Kelly.  I believe most of what Harry Dean said, and what Ron Lewis wrote, and even what David Atlee Phillips wrote. 

The Walker-did-it CT is more solid than the CIA-did-it CT, because the Walker-did-it CT accepts far more evidence from far more people -- and it all fits together better.

The CIA-did-it CT view just thinks of everybody as liars.  That's the weakness.  That's been the weakness for 50 years.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 10, 2016 by Paul Trejo
grammar

[Jim Hargrove]

The belief by a so-called CTer that Marina’s testimony was credible is simply bizarre and really quite unique. Even in the early days of the WC, attorneys were stating quite plainly that she lied.

WC attorney, Norman Redlich wrote in a 2/64 memo to J. Lee Rankin that “neither you nor I have any desire to smear the reputation of any individual. We cannot ignore, however, that Marina Oswald has repeatedly lied to the [Secret] Service, the FBI, and this Commission on matters which are of vital concern to the people of this country and the world” (HSCA Report, appendix vol.11, p.126).

The HSCA also published a lengthy document describing scores of examples of Marina’s inconsistencies. In one of the earliest and best critiques of the Warren Commission, Accessories After the Fact, Sylvia Meagher did the same.

Many of us have great sympathy for Marina’s plight after the assassination. She was alone with two small children surrounded by unfriendly professionals and clearly gave her testimony under severe duress.

According to Robert Morrow, in 2010 she said to Jesse Ventura, “Would you sacrifice your children for the truth?”