Yes, Oswald was an Intelligence agent

Paul Brancato · November 10, 2016

Trejo will say that her WC testimony was under oath. But I agree with you

Edited November 10, 2016 by Paul Brancato

Paul Trejo · November 10, 2016

Jim,

Like chicken little, you exaggerate your case unforgivably. Many JFK researchers accept Marina Oswald's testimony as true. Your claims of "bizarre" and "unique" only show your bias.

It is well known that before Marina Oswald took the oath to testify for the Warren Commission that she was terrified, and that she denied everything. But she wasn't under oath during those times. While Marina was under oath, she told the truth.

As for the HSCA, they remain a joke to this day. Nobody in the US Government would give them information -- not the FBI, not the CIA, not the Pentagon -- nobody. They were merely a bunch of Congressmen seeking to advance their careers. They ultimately concluded that Lee had accomplices (which was already admitted by Earl Warren who deliberately withheld thousands of documents from NARA saying they would be preserved and released in 75 years), but the HSCA failed to name even one of them.

The HSCA is a joke. For the HSCA, Marina Oswald told the truth again -- and it was nearly word for word what she told the Warren Commission. Since it was the truth, then that explains the exact match. The HSCA was seeking to find a different truth -- and they FAILED.

The HSCA concluded that the Mafia did it (i.e. Robert Blakey's CT book Fatal Hour). Later, Robert Blakey recanted his own theory as a mistake. That was the key result of the two years of the HSCA -- a massive waste of money.

You mention Jesse Ventura, Jim, yet you fail to admit that Jesse Ventura also accepted Marina Oswald's testimony. Your views here are biased and one-sided.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 15, 2016 by Paul Trejo
grammar

Jim Hargrove · November 10, 2016

Anyone who would like to theorize that General Walker, rather than the CIA, was instrumental in setting up the patsy for the Kennedy assassination had best rely on something other than the testimony of Marina Oswald/Porter. Even beginners at JFK research quickly learn that her stories were filled with contradictions that changed, and often changed back again, and back again…. and again.

Just to take one example, let’s look at her statements about whether her husband ever practiced with his rifle before he allegedly shot JFK:

* In April, 1963 Marina told George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt that Oswald practiced ·with his rifle by shooting leaves in the park.

* On November 28, 1963 Marina told SS agent Leon Gopadze that she never saw Lee carry guns away from the house nor had seen him practice shooting a gun.⁹⁶

* On December 4, 1963 Marina told Secret Service agents she never saw Lee going out or coming in to the house with the rifle and that he never mentioned doing any practice with the rifle.⁹⁷

* On December 4, 1963 Marina told the FBI that Oswald never told her that he was going to practice with his rifle or any other firearm. ⁹⁸

* On December 16, 1963 Marina told the FBI she never saw Oswald leave with the rifle nor return with the rifle at any time from their residence in New Orleans and he never spoke of practicing.⁹⁹

* On December 17, 1963 Marina said she could not recall that he ever practiced firing the rifle in either New Orleans or Dallas. She did not see him either take the rifle with him from the house in New Orleans or bring it back with him to the house.¹⁰⁰

When Marina testified before the Warren Commission on February 3, 1964 her previous stories regarding Oswald's rifle practice changed:

* When asked by Mr. Rankin about Oswald's rifle practice Marina replied, "He would say, 'Well, today I will take the rifle along for practice.’"¹⁰¹

Following Marina's Warren Commission testimony her statements to the FBI regarding Oswald's rifle practice changed once again:

* On February 17, 1964 Marina was asked if she had ever seen Oswald take the rifle from the house and said she had not. When asked if the rifle was gone from the house at the same time Oswald was gone from the house Marina replied she could not recall any such incident. ¹⁰²

* The same day (February 17) Marina told FBI agents that Oswald said (after the Walker incident) he had practiced with his rifle in a field near Dallas. She said, "I knew that he practiced with it there. He told me, later."¹⁰³

* On February 18, 1964 Marina told FBI agents that one evening, while living on Neely Street, Oswald had wrapped his rifle in a raincoat. She walked with him to a bus stop where he boarded a bus to Love Field (the airport where President Kennedy landed on November 22). She said when he returned a few hours later he told her he had practiced with his rifle.

* During the same interview (February 18) she told the FBI agents that she had never seen Oswald take the rifle from the house. ¹⁰⁴

* On February 22 Marina told FBI agents that before the Walker incident she observed Oswald cleaning his rifle at their home on Neely Street. He told her he had been practicing with the rifle. ¹⁰⁵

When Marina again testified before the Warren Commission on June 11, 1964 her story changed once again:

Mr. Dulles: "How did he pack the gun or conceal the gun when he went out on the bus toward Love Field?"

Marina: "Are you talking about the gun or the rifle?"

Mr. Dulles: "I am talking about the rifle."

Marina: "He used to wrap it up in his overcoat."

Mrs. Declan Ford told the Warren Commission about a conversation she had with Marina regarding Oswald practicing with a rifle. Mrs. Ford said, "She (Marina) said that she didn't think that he went to a rifle practice. She told me that about a lot of things that people would say that it was not true, she thought that she didn't think it was true about Lee being at practice." ¹⁰⁶ Marina told Secret Service agents at no time had she seen Lee carrying guns away from the house for any purpose or had seen him practice shooting with any guns.¹⁰⁷

Notes:

⁹⁶ WC Exhibit 1792, p. 8; Secret Service interview of Marina Oswald by Leon Gopadze, 11/28/63.

⁹⁷ WC Exhibit 1785.

⁹⁸ WC Exhibit 1401.

⁹⁹ National Archives, FBI 124-10010-10443, HQ 105-82555-1172.

¹⁰⁰ WC Exhibit 1403.

¹⁰¹ WC testimony of Marina Oswald, 1 H 15.

¹⁰² WC Exhibit 2694.

¹⁰³ WC testimony of Marina Oswald, 1 H 94.

¹⁰⁴ WC Exhibit 1156.

¹⁰⁵ WC Exhibit 1404.

¹⁰⁶ WC testimony of Mrs. Declan Ford, 2 H 317.

¹⁰⁷ WC Exhibit 1792.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The HSCA prepared a 29-page report about Marina’s ever-changing stories. Here’s one page from it:

Marina_Contra_HSC.jpg?dl=0

Enough is enough, Paul!

Why don’t you just go back to telling us in every post how terrible John Armstrong and I are and stop trying to prop up Marina’s testimony as if it was reliable in any way whatsoever. Find someone even a beginner can trust to point the finger at General Walker. This is ridiculous!

Paul Trejo · November 10, 2016

Jim,

Another great JFK researcher who will vouch strongly for Marina Oswald's testimony is the great David Lifton. You can see this, for example, in the April, 2015 thread by Jon Tidd, namely, "Who Wrote the Walker Letter?"

David Lifton personally interviewed Marina Oswald, and will defend her at least as strongly as I will.

I repeat that you continue to accuse Marina, and you keep citing the HSCA and other blind critics, but you never come up with a specific instance of her committing perjury. Without that, it's just a bunch of hot air.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul Brancato · November 10, 2016

The great David Lifton? Who's exaggerating their case? HSCA was a joke? Marina's WC testimony is the truth? How do you know? WC lawyers said otherwise.

Chris Newton · November 10, 2016

11 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

David Lifton personally interviewed Marina Oswald, and will defend her at least as strongly as I will.

David Lifton recalled helping to "de-program" Marina. He clearly understood and wrote that her testimony changed over time. She had been convinced (or coerced into believing) that her husband had killed JFK.

Sandy Larsen · November 10, 2016

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Anyone who would like to theorize that General Walker, rather than the CIA, was instrumental in setting up the patsy for the Kennedy assassination had best rely on something other than the testimony of Marina Oswald/Porter. Even beginners at JFK research quickly learn that her stories were filled with contradictions that changed, and often changed back again, and back again…. and again.

Just to take one example, let’s look at her statements about whether her husband ever practiced with his rifle before he allegedly shot JFK:

* In April, 1963 Marina told George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt that Oswald practiced ·with his rifle by shooting leaves in the park.

* On November 28, 1963 Marina told SS agent Leon Gopadze that she never saw Lee carry guns away from the house nor had seen him practice shooting a gun.⁹⁶

* On December 4, 1963 Marina told Secret Service agents she never saw Lee going out or coming in to the house with the rifle and that he never mentioned doing any practice with the rifle.⁹⁷

* On December 4, 1963 Marina told the FBI that Oswald never told her that he was going to practice with his rifle or any other firearm. ⁹⁸

* On December 16, 1963 Marina told the FBI she never saw Oswald leave with the rifle nor return with the rifle at any time from their residence in New Orleans and he never spoke of practicing.⁹⁹

* On December 17, 1963 Marina said she could not recall that he ever practiced firing the rifle in either New Orleans or Dallas. She did not see him either take the rifle with him from the house in New Orleans or bring it back with him to the house.¹⁰⁰

When Marina testified before the Warren Commission on February 3, 1964 her previous stories regarding Oswald's rifle practice changed:

* When asked by Mr. Rankin about Oswald's rifle practice Marina replied, "He would say, 'Well, today I will take the rifle along for practice.’"¹⁰¹

Following Marina's Warren Commission testimony her statements to the FBI regarding Oswald's rifle practice changed once again:

* On February 17, 1964 Marina was asked if she had ever seen Oswald take the rifle from the house and said she had not. When asked if the rifle was gone from the house at the same time Oswald was gone from the house Marina replied she could not recall any such incident. ¹⁰²

* The same day (February 17) Marina told FBI agents that Oswald said (after the Walker incident) he had practiced with his rifle in a field near Dallas. She said, "I knew that he practiced with it there. He told me, later."¹⁰³

* On February 18, 1964 Marina told FBI agents that one evening, while living on Neely Street, Oswald had wrapped his rifle in a raincoat. She walked with him to a bus stop where he boarded a bus to Love Field (the airport where President Kennedy landed on November 22). She said when he returned a few hours later he told her he had practiced with his rifle.

* During the same interview (February 18) she told the FBI agents that she had never seen Oswald take the rifle from the house. ¹⁰⁴

* On February 22 Marina told FBI agents that before the Walker incident she observed Oswald cleaning his rifle at their home on Neely Street. He told her he had been practicing with the rifle. ¹⁰⁵

When Marina again testified before the Warren Commission on June 11, 1964 her story changed once again:

Mr. Dulles: "How did he pack the gun or conceal the gun when he went out on the bus toward Love Field?"

Marina: "Are you talking about the gun or the rifle?"

Mr. Dulles: "I am talking about the rifle."

Marina: "He used to wrap it up in his overcoat."

Mrs. Declan Ford told the Warren Commission about a conversation she had with Marina regarding Oswald practicing with a rifle. Mrs. Ford said, "She (Marina) said that she didn't think that he went to a rifle practice. She told me that about a lot of things that people would say that it was not true, she thought that she didn't think it was true about Lee being at practice." ¹⁰⁶ Marina told Secret Service agents at no time had she seen Lee carrying guns away from the house for any purpose or had seen him practice shooting with any guns.¹⁰⁷

Notes:

⁹⁶ WC Exhibit 1792, p. 8; Secret Service interview of Marina Oswald by Leon Gopadze, 11/28/63.

⁹⁷ WC Exhibit 1785.

⁹⁸ WC Exhibit 1401.

⁹⁹ National Archives, FBI 124-10010-10443, HQ 105-82555-1172.

¹⁰⁰ WC Exhibit 1403.

¹⁰¹ WC testimony of Marina Oswald, 1 H 15.

¹⁰² WC Exhibit 2694.

¹⁰³ WC testimony of Marina Oswald, 1 H 94.

¹⁰⁴ WC Exhibit 1156.

¹⁰⁵ WC Exhibit 1404.

¹⁰⁶ WC testimony of Mrs. Declan Ford, 2 H 317.

¹⁰⁷ WC Exhibit 1792.

--From Harvey and Lee, pp. 516-517, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The HSCA prepared a 29-page report about Marina’s ever-changing stories. Here’s one page from it:

Enough is enough, Paul!

Why don’t you just go back to telling us in every post how terrible John Armstrong and I are and stop trying to prop up Marina’s testimony as if it was reliable in any way whatsoever. Find someone even a beginner can trust to point the finger at General Walker. This is ridiculous!

Touche Jim!

Marina lied.

Jim Hargrove · November 11, 2016

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Touche Jim!

Marina lied.

Thanks, Sandy (and Paul B),

IMHO, Real Evidence doesn't rely on Marina's testimony for anything. Real Evidence looks like this:

18 Reasons that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was a CIA Agent

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott said he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”

2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

3. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.

4. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA.

5. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.

6. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and no doubt monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.

7. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.

8. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.

9. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.

10. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.

11. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

12. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.

13. CIA Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, but the CIA ignored his warnings.

14. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.” For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.

15. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

16. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!

17. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”

18. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, and “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.

Krock_CIA.jpeg?dl=0

I'm trying to improve this list, including providing source notes. If anyone has any suggestions, including Mr. Trejo, please reply.

Paul Trejo · November 11, 2016

If you think that Marina Oswald lied, then show some evidence. Show one single case where Marina lied, and back it up. You haven't done that so far. You keep on citing the feeble HSCA and old, tired speculations from the 20th century CIA-did-it CTers.

Just prove ONE SINGLE CASE where Marina Oswald deliberately lied under oath to the Warren Commission. That's all I ask. Just announcing that "Marina lied" is pathetic. It's shameful to accuse a living person of perjury and conspiracy to murder, when you don't have any proof at all. Shameful.

This is relevant to the theme of this thread, since Marina Oswald doubted that Lee was in the CIA, because when she was eight months pregnant, Lee didn't have a job, didn't have health insurance and didn't even have the money for her to see a doctor. That's strong evidence. Prove she's lying.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 11, 2016 by Paul Trejo
link to thread

Jim Hargrove · November 11, 2016

Ah... so you want to pretend Marina’s testimony can be trusted based on which government officials she lied to and which she didn't... maybe, is that it?

Marina told the Warren Commission what the Warren Commission wanted to hear. As demonstrated above, that was usually very different from what she told the FBI and the Secret Service.

Title 18 of the US Code, Section 1001 makes it unlawful to lie to a government agent, even if you:
* made the false statement without the obligations of an oath,
* didn’t receive warning of the law or its consequences,
* were not trying to cheat the government out of money,
* or lied about something that was not materially influential to government matters.

In Paul Trejo’s book, it’s just fine to tell one set of stories to the FBI and the Secret Service investigating the assassination of a U.S. President, and then to tell a completely different story to a blue-ribbon panel supposedly examining the same crime.

No problem there! Let’s put all our trust in that witness, eh Paul?

Most important, though, let's stop talking about "Lee Harvey Oswald" and the CIA and talk instead about Marina... or General Walker... or anything else, eh Paul?

Paul Trejo · November 11, 2016

Jim,

Once again you evade the direct challenge. You accuse Marina Oswald of perjury, but you never back it up.

Give us one example -- any example you choose. The whole world is watching.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 11, 2016 by Paul Trejo

Jim Hargrove · November 12, 2016

Only you used the word "perjury," Paul. I didn't.

What I did say is that she lied again and again and again to U.S. government officials, just as WC lawyers said, just as several HSCA reports said. Either she lied to the FBI, or she lied to the Warren Commission, or she lied to both of them. We can only argue about which were lies and which were the truth, but we do know that her Warren Commission testimony supported the Official Lie.

In the third post on the 21st page of this thread (currently this page), I gave you example after example of contradictory statements Marina made on the subject of "Oswald" allegedly practicing with a rifle. You refuse to recognize those examples as lies even though others here clearly did. Shall I repeat it again??? So you can ignore it again??

WC attorney Norman Redlich wrote in a 2/64 memo to J. Lee Rankin that “neither you nor I have any desire to smear the reputation of any individual. We cannot ignore, however, that Marina Oswald has repeatedly lied to the [Secret] Service, the FBI, and this Commission on matters which are of vital concern to the people of this country and the world.” (HSCA Report, appendix vol.11, p.126).

Here, again, is one page of the 29-page HSCA report calling her out.

Marina_Contra_HSC.jpg?dl=0

The "whole world" is hardly watching this debate Paul. Can you possibly be more full of yourself? A few people have paid attention, though, and they have already declared that you lost. You have managed, however, to change the subject from the CIA to Marina, so I guess that's a minor victory for you.

Paul Trejo · November 12, 2016

19 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Only you used the word "perjury," Paul. I didn't.

What I did say is that she lied again and again and again to U.S. government officials, just as WC lawyers said, just as several HSCA reports said. Either she lied to the FBI, or she lied to the Warren Commission, or she lied to both of them. We can only argue about which were lies and which were the truth, but we do know that her Warren Commission testimony supported the Official Lie.

In the third post on the 21st page of this thread (currently this page), I gave you example after example of contradictory statements Marina made on the subject of "Oswald" allegedly practicing with a rifle. You refuse to recognize those examples as lies even though others here clearly did. Shall I repeat it again??? So you can ignore it again??..

Jim,

You accuse Marina Oswald of lying under oath -- but you refuse to call it perjury?

In fact, neither you nor anybody has shown one single case where Marina Oswald lied while under oath. Not one. Yet she's still living today -- you should be ashamed to accuse her of lying, and show no evidence. (Actually, there should be rules on this Forum to spurn baseless accusations that somebody is lying.)

As for Marina's statements to the FBI when they first picked her up, and she was terrified, and she denied everything -- that wasn't under oath, and that is a normal response from anybody, anyway. That's not the issue, and you know it.

I have already responded to the joke that was the HSCA -- the vast waste of money to arrive at the conclusion that was already tacit with Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren, namely, that the Full Truth of the JFK assassination would be withheld from NARA, preserved and revealed to the American People after 75 years. Earl Warren himself tacitly admitted a Cover-up. That's nothing new at all.

J. Edgar Hoover himself -- in his WC testimony -- admitted that LHO was never a real member of the Communist Party or the FPCC. This is stated in the WC pages. So, it was bogus for the HSCA to prance forth and announce this, as if it was some great discovery.

The truth is that the HSCA was a bunch of Congressmen and Senators reaching for headlines -- they revealed nothing new about JFK. They re-called Marina Oswald for questioning, and got exactly the same answers to exactly the same questions as before. Same with Ruth Paine. What a waste of taxpayer money.

Again, Jim, if you insist on saying that Marina Oswald lied while under oath, then you should also stand up and call that what it is -- perjury -- and then you should show at least one single case where this occurred.

You still haven't done that. You think people aren't noticing this?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited November 12, 2016 by Paul Trejo

Jim Hargrove · November 12, 2016

To Paul Trejo:

This is a profoundly stupid debate. It was and remains every bit as much of a criminal offense to lie to the FBI and the Secret Service as it was to lie to the Warren Commission. The person who did so, in both the legal and ethical sense, was a L-I-A-R.

In order to misdirect attention from the CIA to General Walker, you choose to put your trust in a proven L-I-A-R. Do you think we’re stupid?

Here, again, is the evidence I presented earlier that Marina repeatedly lied to U.S. authorities about her husband supposedly practicing with his rifle. There are many other subjects that she lied about as well.

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