"Let's get our story straight"

[Steve Thomas]

“I approached Oswald then and, out of the hearing of the others except perhaps one of Captain Fritz's men, said that as a Secret Service agent; … we were therefore very anxious to talk with him to make certain that the correct story was developing as it related to the assassination.”

Oswald said he'd be glad to discuss this once he got an attorney.

Thomas Kelley. Warren Report. Appendix XI. Reports Relating to the Interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas Police Department p. 630

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=654&tab=page

Steve Thomas

[Larry Hancock]

Its always good to be organized......very helpful on Kelley's part, Thanks Steve, that was a new one to me.

[Ron Ecker]

“Captain Fritz made a number of telephone calls to ascertain whether the preparations he had placed into effect for transferring the prisoner to the County Jail were ready…”

​In other words, was Jack Ruby in place?

[Paul Brancato]

This short report by Secret Service inspector Kelley is very interesting. Oswald never admitted to using Hidell as an alias. Is that technically correct?

[Steve Thomas]

Paul,

This short report by Secret Service inspector Kelley is very interesting. Oswald never admitted to using Hidell as an alias. Is that technically correct?

There is this WC testimony from Will Fritz:

Mr. BALL. Another thing, that day, at sometime during the 22d when you questioned Oswald, didn't you ask him about this card he had in his pocket with the name Alek Hidell?
Mr. FRITZ. I did; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you ask him about that?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe he had three of those cards if I remember correctly, and he told me that was the name that he picked up in New Orleans that he had used sometimes. One of the cards looked like it might have been altered a little bit and one of them I believe was the Fair Play for Cuba and one looked like a social security card or something.
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. We have pictures of those cards here. You no doubt have them.
Mr. BALL. Yes. We have them. Did he say that he had used that as a name?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me that is a name he picked up in New Orleans.
Mr. BALL. Did he say----
Mr. FRITZ. I presumed by that he had used it by saying he had picked it up in New Orleans.
Mr. BALL. To one officer he said he didn't want to talk about that or he wouldn't talk about that?
Mr. FRITZ. That is right. Very often he would do that. He would tell him some things and tell me some things.
Mr. BALL. I am talking about this card, A. Hidell. Do you recall whether he told you he had picked it up in New Orleans and--or did he tell you he didn't want to talk about it? He wouldn't talk about it?
Mr. FRITZ. He didn't tell me he wouldn't want to talk about it. He told me he had picked it up down there and when I questioned further then he told me he didn't want to talk about it.

There are a couple of things in here that interest me.

1) There are at least three people who say that they saw and questioned Oswald about the Hidell ID on Friday night: Detective Guy Rose, FBI Agent Manning Clements, and H&R Division Captain Will Fritz.. I think that should answer the question of when the Hidell ID emerged.

2) The police officer Fritz refers to. To me, there seems to be a mystery police officer in the mix here. Fritz refers to him when asked how he learned of the 1026 N. Beckley St. address, and again in his interrogation notes when he refers to him as "B.O.".

3) Oswald admits to having the Hidell ID card in his possession, and either "declines to admit", or "denies" that the signature is his; (there is a slightly nuanced difference in interpretation here - you have compare the interrogation reports of Fritz, Bookhout and Kelley); and then refuses to discuss it further. Fritz said that Oswald said "he had used it sometimes", but I have yet to discover what it was ever used for.

Steve Thomas

[Larry Hancock]

Very good question on his use of a pysical ID, its one thing to use a name as an alias as he did with his FPCC letters but to actually have it on an ID card is another story. Does anyone have an idea of what purpose a Hidell ID card would have since the only known use of the name - as far as I recall - was in conjunction with the FPCC.

It would be pretty useless to use it in Mexico City when showing FPCC materials if you are applying for a transit visa as Oswald.

-- very good line of inquiry Steve! Including the police officer referred to as BO...

[Steve Thomas]

Larry,

On 10/26/2016 at 7:33 AM, Larry Hancock said:

Very good question on his use of a pysical ID, its one thing to use a name as an alias as he did with his FPCC letters but to actually have it on an ID card is another story. Does anyone have an idea of what purpose a Hidell ID card would have since the only known use of the name - as far as I recall - was in conjunction with the FPCC.

It would be pretty useless to use it in Mexico City when showing FPCC materials if you are applying for a transit visa as Oswald.

-- very good line of inquiry Steve! Including the police officer referred to as BO...

Thanks.

I've raised this issue before. What did LHO use this ID card for?

Buy beer?

Get into an R-rated movie?

Apply for social security?

*smile*

As far as the policeman goes, this is the third time I've found where Fritz refers to a policeman, and either fails to, or refuses to identify him.

This is very mysterious.

In February, 1964 Marina Oswald was questioned by the Warren Commission. During her testimony, she is asked to verify and authenticate a long list of documents, What she is not shown however, are the Hidell Selective Service card, nor the rifle postal money order.

On June 11, 1964 she again appears before the Warren Commission and is shown CE 819 - the FPFC membership card. She says that LHO filled out the top part and she signed the bottom line as Hidell, the Chapter President. (Again, no SS card or money order)

In 1979, the HSCA submitted 63 documents to handwriting experts and asks them authenticate them.

Item#'s 29 and 30 are the postal money order and the envelope in which it was sent.

http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/hscahand.htm

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961#relPageId=227&tab=page

tem# 54 Undated. Exemplar writing of Marina Oswald. including seven slips of paper containing the writing "A. J. Hidell." Location: Archives, HSCA. 232

(These are on pages 374 and 375 of Volume VIII of the HSCA Appendix Volumes)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961

What it not included in this list of 63 documents, is the Selective Service Card.

This is very strange to me since the SS card was one of the very first pieces of evidence against LHO.

CE 2726 p. 105

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=141&tab=page

 

is a June 17, 1964 letter from Hoover to J. Lee Rankin concerning Marina's signature on the A.J. Hidell signature on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee membership card.
The FBI determined that Marina signed the FPCC membership card in the name of A.J. Hidell. Hoover says that Exhibits 404A, 408A, 409A and 420 are being returned to you. These are samples of Marina's handwriting.

(Which really doesn't tell us much since Marina admitted signing this card in her June 11th testimony).

These handwriting examples can be found in Volume XVII of the Hearings and Exhibits here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134

They were introduced during Ruth Paine's WC testimony in Volume II.

 

Here for the first time (that I'm aware of) is a side by side comparison of the Hidell signature on the Selective Service card, and the rifle postal money order.

Compare the signatures of the Hidell Selective Service Card on CE 796 (Which is a photograph of CE 795) with the Hidell Signature on the Hidell Postal Service Money Order on CE 788. These are found in ol. XVII of the WC Hearings

 

What do you think?

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Steve Thomas

[Mark Knight]

I'm no "expert witness," but the HIDELL part of the signatures look enough alike to have been done by the same hand...IMHO.

[Steve Thomas]

Larry,

Very good question on his use of a pysical ID, its one thing to use a name as an alias as he did with his FPCC letters but to actually have it on an ID card is another story. Does anyone have an idea of what purpose a Hidell ID card would have since the only known use of the name - as far as I recall - was in conjunction with the FPCC.

CE 811 is the Oswald's Selective Service Classification. It's grouped with CE 812, the USMC Certificate of Service - these are in vol. XVII of the Hearings.

Eyes: Blue

Height 5'11”

Hidell CE 796

SS Notice of Classification:

Eyes: Grey

Height 5'9”

USMC Certificate of Service

Oswald: CE 812

Period of Active Duty: 24 October 1956 to 11 September 1959

Hidell: CE 810 Certificate of Service

Period of Active Duty: Oct 15 1958 to Oct 12 1959? (only one year in the service?)

Who would use a form of ID that only showed one year of service in the military?

The Hidell ID was used for something, but for the life of me, I can't figure out what.

Steve Thomas

[Thomas Graves]

Larry,

Very good question on his use of a pysical ID, its one thing to use a name as an alias as he did with his FPCC letters but to actually have it on an ID card is another story. Does anyone have an idea of what purpose a Hidell ID card would have since the only known use of the name - as far as I recall - was in conjunction with the FPCC.

CE 811 is the Oswald's Selective Service Classification. It's grouped with CE 812, the USMC Certificate of Service - these are in vol. XVII of the Hearings.

Eyes: Blue

Height 5'11”

Hidell CE 796

SS Notice of Classification:

Eyes: Grey

Height 5'9”

USMC Certificate of Service

Oswald: CE 812

Period of Active Duty: 24 October 1956 to 11 September 1959

Hidell: CE 810 Certificate of Service

Period of Active Duty: Oct 15 1958 to Oct 12 1959? (only one year in the service?)

Who would use a form of ID that only showed one year of service in the military?

The Hidell ID was used for something, but for the life of me, I can't figure out what.

Steve Thomas

Steve and Larry,

When I look at these, I think "Robert Webster - Lee Harvey Oswald Marked Cards."

Circa early 1960.

-- Tommy

[Larry Hancock]

The only way the ID works is if it is associated with an independent identity other than Oswald - which means using it with people and places where Oswald is unknown and can't be independently recognized. That doesn't really work in New Orleans where he was highly visible as Oswald. We know the FBI was confused as to whether or not Hidell was a real person in conjunction with the FPCC, there are documents on that question. Seems like the ID might have been useful as something related to penetrating the FPCC, but from our understanding that was all a paper trail. Would the FPCC have required an ID for some reason or was Oswald thinking of doing something that summer as Hidel where a physical ID would have been required.

Which brings something to mind which I don't recall, in Mexico he reportedly showed Duran materials related to the FPCC in his pitch for a visa? Did those not contain any name? Or does Oswald show up on FPCC material independent of Hidell; I just don't remember...

[Ray Mitcham]

I'm no "expert witness," but the HIDELL part of the signatures look enough alike to have been done by the same hand...IMHO.

Or a good forger, Mark.

[Steve Thomas]

Larry,

The only way the ID works is if it is associated with an independent identity other than Oswald - which means using it with people and places where Oswald is unknown and can't be independently recognized.

That raises another sort of side question.

Why use a military form of ID?

Why not create a fake drivers license?

Or a fake form of ID showing you are getting unemployment comp from the Texas Employment Commission?

Or a fake Social Security Card?

If he had shown that to anyone associated with the military, they would have immediately known it was fake - heck, even people not directly associated with the military, like the Dallas Police immediately knew it was a fake.

Alwyn Cole, a questioned documents expert of the Department of the Treasury testified before the Warren Commission on April 30, 1964.

(His specialty was counterfeit documents)

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/cole1.htm

He said that counterfeiting the Selective Service card was fairly easy to do for someone with a basic knowledge of photography.

I don't find that true at all.

You're talking about enlarging and reducing photographs, red opaqeuing through lines, working with negatives, use of fairly sophisticated equipment... To me, this is a pretty extensive investment of time and effort.

On another little side note, Cole said that the card was done using two different typewriters. The front of the card was done one one typewriter, and the back side of the card was done on a different typewriter.

I don't know what to make of this.

To the best of my knowledge, in his dealings with the national FPFC, (like his letters back and forth to Vincent Lee), he always portrayed himself as Oswald. So, even though the "name" Hidell was associated with the New Orleans FPFC, the ID card wasn't.

It's gotta be something else.

On the Oswald SS card, the date of mailing reads February 2 (I can't make out the year) (CE 805)

On the Hidell card it's been changed to February 5 (I can't make out the year) (CE 796)

Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3^rd and supposedly, according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12^th.

How could Marina, who knew to the penny what Lee was making per hour at his different jobs, and knew exactly what they were paying for rent at Elsbeth and Neely, be off by two months about when they moved?

I personally think that the Hidell Selective Service card predates the Oswalds' move to New Orleans - at a time when Lee had access to sophisticated photographic equipment at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall in the fall of 1962 and spring of 1963.

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

Larry,

I personally think that the Hidell Selective Service card predates the Oswalds' move to New Orleans - at a time when Lee had access to sophisticated photographic equipment at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall in the fall of 1962 and spring of 1963.

Steve Thomas

I'm going to take this one step further and engage in some wild conspiracy theory here.

*smile*

When he moved down to New New Orleans, he appropriated the name "Hidell", but it was in use before that. The rifle supposedly was ordered in March.

I think it's got something to with the time when Oswald went "missing" for the two weeks between October 19th and November 3rd, 1962.

(after he checked out of the YMCA and before he moved into the Elsbeth St. Apartment).

Even though he was working at JCS, nobody knew where he was living. Not his wife, not his bosses, not his co-workers, not his personal associates.

There's some funny money going on here.

Steve Thomas

[Larry Hancock]

Steve, just in general I don't know that the average person would have tweaked to it being a fake if he just flashed it; I held a military ID for four years and probably never looked at it that closely. These days we examine such things closely but back then unless he was going though a real security check or being picked up for a crime it probably would have passed.

Your question on why a military ID is a good one though, a military ID can be used for little things like getting you on base to use the PX or similar facilities. But there is some risk there and no sign of Oswald doing that. A military ID is useful in applying for benefits, but only in the right name - so much for that. It strikes me a military ID might be useful to impress someone you are trying to convince of your credentials as a military type, as a marine. Oswald did try that sort of thing with exiles in Miami, but in his own name and for that he used his training manual as support.

Lets go back to New Orleans for a bit, its pretty clear that Oswald was associating with individuals not known to the local community including Cuban exiles, those folks were suspected of being Castro agents even by certain exiles there. Nagell tells us they were exiles from out of town pretending to be Castro agents. What if Oswald was trying to pitch himself as a former military type turned Castro supporter - ala FPCC - and sneaky enough to be using aliases and false ID. Perhaps it was a sort of pitch to serve his role in being a dangle. In fact it might even have been given to him for just that purpose.

Or you can fast forward to Dallas where he appears to have once again been "dangling" himself, perhaps at the House on Harlandale. I also find those two missing weeks of interest. Bottom line though is that a fake military ID is probably not a good thing for use with the actual military but if you are trying to impress somebody with your being a marine it might be worthwhile.