Dust on the shirt

[Micah Mileto]

I have heard it claimed that you can see dust on Bonnie Ray Williams' shirt in this picture of him being escorted by the Police:

 

 

I was under the impression that maybe that story was fabricated, because his earlier statements do not include the reference to dust or pieces of cement falling on him (and how could gunshots dislodge debris that years of moving heavy boxes could not dislodge?). It's a similar story with Harold Norman's story about hearing shell casings hit the ceiling. A lot of things get a little suspicious when you read the statements of Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, and James Jarman in chronological order. So is this picture really supposed to show the dust Bonnie was talking about? Kind of looks like it could be a lot of things.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Micah Mileto

[Michael Walton]

The dust on his shirt could be anything.  He could have simply got it when he was leaning out the window. I'm sure that building was not the cleanest place in the world.

I do find it hard to believe that he (whoever said it) hear the clinking of the shells hitting the floor when there were motorcycle backfires, cars, clapping and yelling while all of this was going on.

[Terry Adams]

I do think that the dust we see in the first picture came from the window sill, but my question is, since they mention hearing the shells hitting the floor and the ratcheting of the rifle, why wouldn't they say that it seemed as if a cannon was blasting above them.  I mean, if you look at the picture of them in the window, there is only 8-10 feet between them and the shooter.  Those shots should have been LOUD!

[Lawrence Schnapf]

and they were moving dusty book boxes all morning. i would think dust from ceiling would fall on his head.... 

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

and they were moving dusty book boxes all morning. i would think dust from ceiling would fall on his head.... 

As an attorney you should be advised that all three witnesses regarding the dust/shells may have been coached before their testimony regarding it.

This has been discussed in depth either here or on other websites.

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

As an attorney you should be advised that all three witnesses regarding the dust/shells may have been coached before their testimony regarding it.

This has been discussed in depth either here or on other websites.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=dust+in+the+wind+kansas&form=PRUSEN&mkt=en-us&httpsmsn=1&refig=b49e12938f4f4a8b978d27faa871b5e3&sp=5&qs=LS&pq=dust+in+the+&sk=LS2AS2&sc=8-12&cvid=b49e12938f4f4a8b978d27faa871b5e3

[Mathias Baumann]

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

As an attorney you should be advised that all three witnesses regarding the dust/shells may have been coached before their testimony regarding it.

This has been discussed in depth either here or on other websites.

Quote

• Bugliosi then specifies the thoughts of the third "stock boy". He writes: "maybe, Bonnie Ray Williams thinks, it's a firecracker." For Bugliosi, Williams' impressions are of paramount importance. Later, on page 469, he uses Williams' assumption that Kennedy was brushing back his hair just before the first shot as evidence the shot rang out around frame 160 of the Zapruder film. What Bugliosi conceals from his readers, however, is that an affidavit signed by Williams on the day of the shooting reveals that he heard but two shots (24H229) and that he subsequently confirmed this appraisal in statements to the FBI (CD5 p330-333) and Secret Service (CD87 p784). If Williams heard but two shots, the first of which was a missed shot as early as frame 160, as Bugliosi purports, this means he somehow missed hearing one of the two shots to impact on Kennedy, even though the shooter firing these shots was, according to Bugliosi, in the sixth floor sniper's nest of the school book depository, just a few yards above the open fifth floor window occupied by Williams.
• Apparently, this point was not lost on Bugliosi, as he bypasses these early statements and cites Williams' Warren Commission testimony as his source for Williams' thoughts about the firecracker. Here, after months of hearing that Oswald had fired three shots, Williams finally relented and said he heard three shots,  But there's a huge problem with this. Williams didn't just testify to hearing three shots, he testified as to how he heard them. Williams stated: "there was two shots rather close together. The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as I remember…the first shot—I really did not pay much attention to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot.  And it sounded—it even shook the building…I heard three shots, but at first I told the FBI I only heard two--they took me down--because I was excited, and I couldn't remember too well.  But later on, as everything began to die down, I got my memory even a little better than on the 22nd. I remembered three shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was two real quick. There was three shots.” (3H 161-184) 

--> http://www.patspeer.com/chapter9b%3Areclaiminghistoryfromreclaimin2

So the first shot came not from inside the building. And a great number of witnesses also said it sounded different, more like a fire cracker. A diversionary device on the grassy knoll, maybe? That might also explain the smoke people saw.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Mathias Baumann

[Micah Mileto]

On 9/3/2017 at 8:54 PM, Lawrence Schnapf said:

and they were moving dusty book boxes all morning. i would think dust from ceiling would fall on his head.... 

Bonnie did say that particles of cement fell on his head, but he said this by the time of his third or fourth interview.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Micah Mileto

[David Josephs]

Common sense break...

A rifle going off with the muzzle 10-15 feet from these men's ears would render them temporarily deaf... and then 2 more blasts from the same place?
These blasts supposedly shake the dust from the ceiling... but have no effect on the ears of these three men...

Right.

Not only could they not hear the bolt or shells, they shouldn't have been able to hear at all...  let alone question whether the shots came from that close:

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where did you think the shots came from? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot-I really did not pay any attention to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. And it sounded-it even shook the building, the side we were on cement fell on my head. 

Mr. BALL. Norman said what? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. He said it came directly over our heads. "I can even hear the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." But I did not hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn't paying attention. 
Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it? 
Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the window that Oswald shot from. 

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything as to where they thought the shots came from? 
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I don't recall of either one of them saying they thought where it came from. 
Mr. BALL. But You did? 
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. And you said you thought it came from where? 
Mr. NORMAN. Above where we were, above us. 
Mr. BALL. Did you see any dust or dirt falling? 
Mr. NORMAN. I didn't see any falling but I saw some in Bonnie Ray Williams hair. 

This remains one of the worst lies designed to incriminate in the WCR...  10 feet from the rifle and they BELIEVE it came from there... 

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us." 
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me. 

[Michael Walton]

On 9/6/2017 at 2:19 PM, David Josephs said:

This remains one of the worst lies designed to incriminate in the WCR...  10 feet from the rifle and they BELIEVE it came from there... 

This is a good post. I'm  deaf and believe me if I'd  have been on the 5th floor underneath the nest with 3 loud bangs I'd have been scared xxxxless.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Michael Walton

[Roger DeLaria]

On 9/3/2017 at 6:21 AM, Micah Mileto said:

I have heard it claimed that you can see dust on Bonnie Ray Williams' shirt in this picture of him being escorted by the Police:

 

 

I was under the impression that maybe that story was fabricated, because his earlier statements do not include the reference to dust or pieces of cement falling on him (and how could gunshots dislodge debris that years of moving heavy boxes could not dislodge?). It's a similar story with Harold Norman's story about hearing shell casings hit the ceiling. A lot of things get a little suspicious when you read the statements of Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, and James Jarman in chronological order. So is this picture really supposed to show the dust Bonnie was talking about? Kind of looks like it could be a lot of things.

Sorry that this is a detour. In the picture the hispanic looking gentleman behind Williams has an interesting look on his face that shows absolutely no concern or worry, considering what just happened and being rounded up by the police. To me his expression looks like he's going through the motions or waiting in line for an ice cream cone. Probably nothing? 

[David Josephs]

That's DANNY GARCIA ARCE....

Seems that instant his face was in a smirk...  here's another where the concern is a bit more apparent on his face...

Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound? 
Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository. 

Remegio Arce claims it was Herminio Diaz Garcia who shot JFK...

Kind of interesting that Danny's last 2 names are the claimed shooter GARCIA and the man doing the claiming ARCE...  

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/johnfkennedy/10452110/The-Cuban-assassin-with-a-deadly-secret-I-shot-JFK.html

Martinez told them of a friend from student days called Herminio Diaz Garcia, an introverted but exceptionally brave man. Diaz, a crack shot, had worked as head of security at a casino in Havana run by the Mafia boss Santo Trafficante. He was also a political assassin, responsible for as many as 20 deaths, and at the time of the Kennedy assassination he was in the United States.

Martinez said that, while detained in one of Castro’s prisons, he had met Tony Cuesta, leader of an anti-Castro raid on Cuba in 1966 that had ended in Diaz’s death. Cuesta, who was badly wounded, told him about the night of the abortive raid and words uttered by Diaz that he would never forget. Said Martinez: “Herminio confessed to Tony Cuesta that he had taken part in the death of the US president.”

Years later, in Florida, Martinez heard the same from another source, an old friend and fellow Cuban exile, Remigio Arce. “Listen,” said Arce, “the one who killed the president was our little friend.”

Summers believes Martinez, who has since died, was telling the truth. “Martinez struck me – after two days of tough interviewing of a man in his eighties – as someone with nothing to gain, who appeared to be credible. Diaz ticks the boxes. He was a known political assassin, a marksman and had worked for Santo Trafficante, one of the two prime suspects in the assassination, together with fellow Mafia boss Carlos Marcello, named by the House Assassinations Committee. He was also involved with one of the more extreme anti-Castro groups.

[Roger DeLaria]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

That's DANNY GARCIA ARCE....

Seems that instant his face was in a smirk...  here's another where the concern is a bit more apparent on his face...

Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound? 
Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository. 

Remegio Arce claims it was Herminio Diaz Garcia who shot JFK...

Kind of interesting that Danny's last 2 names are the claimed shooter GARCIA and the man doing the claiming ARCE...  

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/johnfkennedy/10452110/The-Cuban-assassin-with-a-deadly-secret-I-shot-JFK.html

Martinez told them of a friend from student days called Herminio Diaz Garcia, an introverted but exceptionally brave man. Diaz, a crack shot, had worked as head of security at a casino in Havana run by the Mafia boss Santo Trafficante. He was also a political assassin, responsible for as many as 20 deaths, and at the time of the Kennedy assassination he was in the United States.

Martinez said that, while detained in one of Castro’s prisons, he had met Tony Cuesta, leader of an anti-Castro raid on Cuba in 1966 that had ended in Diaz’s death. Cuesta, who was badly wounded, told him about the night of the abortive raid and words uttered by Diaz that he would never forget. Said Martinez: “Herminio confessed to Tony Cuesta that he had taken part in the death of the US president.”

Years later, in Florida, Martinez heard the same from another source, an old friend and fellow Cuban exile, Remigio Arce. “Listen,” said Arce, “the one who killed the president was our little friend.”

Summers believes Martinez, who has since died, was telling the truth. “Martinez struck me – after two days of tough interviewing of a man in his eighties – as someone with nothing to gain, who appeared to be credible. Diaz ticks the boxes. He was a known political assassin, a marksman and had worked for Santo Trafficante, one of the two prime suspects in the assassination, together with fellow Mafia boss Carlos Marcello, named by the House Assassinations Committee. He was also involved with one of the more extreme anti-Castro groups.

David,

Judging expressions is certainly subjective, I would agree his face shows a concern or pensiveness, but doesn't look like an expression of fear or Oh $hit!

Edited September 7, 2017 by Roger DeLaria