General Walker, Lee Harvey Oswald and Dallas Officials

[Paul Trejo]

Meryvn,

This thread is currently and plainly focused on the Dallas Police, Deputies and other Officials in November, 1963.   Your remarks about Bernald in 1961 in Germany are deliberately distracting to this focus.   I am setting your Forum account to IGNORE.

Everybody who wishes to contribute remarks about the Dallas Police, Deputies and other Officials in November, 1963, is invited to join.

Sincerely,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 22, 2018 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Paul Trejo]

On 4/20/2018 at 1:26 AM, Jason Ward said:

Dallas Law Enforcement testimony in the Warren Commission Part 21: FBI Agent James Bookhout

CONCERNS

1. Is Bookhout’s explanation of how he came to Capt Fritz’s office after the assassination entirely trustworthy – in that he was walking down the street and other unnamed FBI men told him that’s where he should go?
2. Isn’t there a lot of missing time in Bookhout’s testimony in particular what he was doing at DPD when he was not actually face-to-face interviewing Oswald Friday afternoon and all day Saturday?
3. Is Oswald really so picky about lawyers that he refuses any help, even on a temporary basis from the local bar association?   Is Oswald’s insistence on a commie lawyer (Abt) real or possibly part of a DPD effort to portray Oswald as a communist fully integrated with other US communists?   If one is broke and in jail for shooting a cop and president, isn’t it more rational to accept any legal advice readily available?....OR is Oswald so confident of his position that he continues to play up his commie-nut persona by absurdly demanding a commie-lawyer?
4. Does Bookhout’s testimony of Frtiz  + 2 homicide officers match Hosty’s roster of those in attendance at the first interview?
5. Why does Bookhout characterize Oswald’s responses as the same in tone for all interrogators, but Hosty says Oswald is abusive and profane towards FBI men present?
6. Doesn’t Bookhout remember he and/or Hosty asking questions of Oswald while Hosty claims they sat in the back in silence?
7. I believe this is the first we’ve heard that Oswald was not allowed to wear the same type jacket as everyone else in the lineups – was this meant to be suppressed?
8. Doesn’t Hosty says Frtiz asks about Mexico while Bookhout says it is Hosty who asks about Mexico?
9. Why does Bookhout portray Oswald as more calm and well behaved versus Hosty and Fritz who claim there is desk pounding and insults?
10. The insertion of the story around Oswald taking a bus and taxi home seems unnatural in the flow of the narrative provided by Bookhout.  Is this a point Bookhout made an effort to get on the record?

I see something of a pattern in testimony here, perhaps there are essential  Key Elements which all of Oswald's interrogators agree to mention and get on the record as coming from Oswald...: Oswald admits the Beckley address; Oswald admits possession of pistol; Oswald denies owning a rifle; Oswald admits resisting arrest; Oswald admits TSBD employment; Oswald denies a lawyer; Oswald denies Mexico City but admits Tijuana; Oswald claims the backyard photos are fakes.

Hi Jason,

Again, excellent work on Dallas FBI agent James Bookhout.  I'll address your concerns by the numbers.

1. I mistrust Bookhout’s WC testimony from top to bottom.  He cannot give clear answers to clear questions, because he has far too much to hide.

2. Bookhout will not share his hour by hour biography during the most important weekend in his career -- since he has too much to hide.

3. I categorically refuse to believe 90% of the words ascribed to Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) from his arrival at the Dallas Police HQ around 2:15pm on 11/22/1963 until he was killed there around 11:15am on 11/24/1963.  

*** Up to 90% of the words that Fritz, Hosty, Bookhout, Sorrels and Holmes claim that LHO said were fabricated in a plot led by Captain Fritz in the intervening months between the murder of LHO and this WC testimony.   

***.  Still, LHO's request for Attorney Abt was real.  I say this because Ruth Paine testified to it, and I accept her word as terra firma in the case.  (Ruth testified that LHO called her personally, and demanded that she contact Abt for him -- more or less like a paid secretary.   She worried about his arrogant attitude -- a man facing a death sentence -- but she tried to contact Abt out of friendship for Marina.   Abt was on vacation that weekend.)

***  In my reading, the Radical Right "handlers" of LHO, who put him in this position, continually assured him that "everything would be all right" as long as he kept playing ball.  LHO agreed to this.

***.  The Radical Right "handlers" of LHO told him to contact Attorney Abt.  It seems to me that LHO had no clue in the world who Attorney Abt was.  He never heard of him.  This was a "ruse", a secret plan for LHO to believe, to help secure his silence.  It worked like a charm.

***.  Again, LHO is unaware that Abt is a Communist.  This was likely a joke being played on him -- certainly by John Birch Society members who kept abreast of such information -- members like General Edwin Walker.

4. Bookhout’s testimony of anything that happens in Fritz's office -- including personnel -- is intended to be fuzzy.  It was scripted -- that is the only reason that we get whatever agreements we do get.  The fuzziness lends itself to credibility, as they continually say, "I don't recall."

5. There are two personas of LHO that the JFK plotters attempt to portray -- the first is the cool, calm, calculating KGB agent, to impress the US Government.  This second is the rude, insulting and vulgar criminal, to impress the US Public.

6. Bookhout probably remembers everything that happened during the 44 hours of keeping LHO in seclusion from the world until his assassin could be put into place.  However, breathing a word of it would be fatal.  His first strategy would be to say he didn't remember.  His second strategy would be to stick to the script written by Captain Fritz and his team.

7. No, the news that Oswald was wearing a T-shirt and everybody else had jackets was annouced by many DPD witnesses.  It was smoothed over by assurances. 

8.  YES!  Hosty says Fritz asks about Mexico while Bookhout says Hosty asks about Mexico!  Also, when you get to Harry Holmes' testimony, pay special attention to what *he* says about Mexico!  It's unraveling!

9.  It seems to me that Bookhout is projecting a calm Oswald in order to keep himself calm during his several hours of perjury. 

10. The fiction of a bus/taxi in LHO's travel from the TSBD to Oak Cliff was invented by Fritz and his men (who "found" the bus ticket and the taxi driver, whose testimony falls apart like a house of cards).  Yet it became mandatory for the Lone Nut theory, otherwise, LHO would be seen to have accomplices with cars to drive him around. 

11. BRILLIANT LIST, Jason, of the scripted elements: (1) Oswald admits the Beckley address; (2) Oswald admits possession of pistol; (3) Oswald denies owning a rifle; (4) Oswald admits resisting arrest; (5) Oswald admits TSBD employment; (6) Oswald denies a lawyer; (7) Oswald denies Mexico City but admits Tijuana; (8) Oswald claims the backyard photos are fakes.

That list will grow, as you will see.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 21, 2018 by Paul Trejo
clarity

[Mervyn Hagger]

59 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Meryvn,

This thread is currently and plainly focused on the Dallas Police, Deputies and other Officials in November, 1963.   Your remarks about Bernald in 1961 in Germany are deliberately distracting to this focus.   I am setting your Forum account to IGNORE.

Everybody who wishes to contribute remarks about the Dallas Police, Deputies and other Officials in November, 1963, are invited to join.

Sincerely,
--Paul Trejo

There is something weird here. Either you did not read the title of the thread, or you have changed the course of the thread without changing its name. I am not deliberately doing anything other than asking some awkward questions about Edwin Walker's own 1961 published words, in a mainstream newspaper, which apparently you do not wish to address. That is your right and so is your right to ignore my questions. But please, don't accuse me of something which you are apparently doing yourself by claiming a de facto change of name of this thread. That is downright silly since it is what it is.

[Paul Trejo]

19 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Dallas Law Enforcement testimony in the Warren Commission Part 22: Secret Service Special Agent In Charge Forrest Sorrels

CONCERNS

1. Is this a conspiracy of old men?   All the law enforcement leaders are at or beyond retirement age - Sorrels, Fritz, Decker - a generation older than Kennedy.   There is a tier of younger men around age 30 who are doing most of the active police work in the field on 22NOV63.
2. A close reading  indicates in the afternoon of 22NOV63 Sorrels has already identified a Dealey Plaza witness who can identify Oswald even before Oswald is arrested....is Sorrels already planning to convict Oswald before Oswald's name is known to police?
3. Is Forrest Sorrels with his 20+ year position in Dallas the only member of law enforcement who does not at least know Jack Ruby by name and reputation?  Is his unsolicited statement that he didn’t even know how to spell Ruby’s last name a little too much effort to prove the Carousel Club owner was previously unknown to Sorrels?
4. A change-of-address card from New Orleans allows Sorrels to pursue the Alex Hidell angle; previously this same card was critical to Agent Hosty’s locating the Oswalds in Irving.  Is a change-of-address card really such a critical role in finding and accusing Oswald?    And how does Sorrels get this card so quickly after the assassination (2 days)?
5. Is ascertaining Oswald's reaction to the Hidell alias really the top priority in the aftermath of the assassination, and if so, why?
6. AFAIK investigating murders is nowhere in the Secret Service investigative portfolio - why is Sorrels interrogating Oswald anyway?
7. How is it that the WC fails to ask Sorrels in any way whatsoever about preparation for the presidential visit?
8. Why do some witnesses like Sorrels seem to insist on pointing out Ruby’s former name – Rubenstein, even though this is irrelevant to the 3 murders that weekend?
9. How is it that Sorrels testifies he has no knowledge of Ruby before 24NOV63, but upon interrogating Ruby is able to mention “a number of Jewish merchants here that you know?”   How does Sorrels already know who Ruby knows if Sorrels doesn’t know Ruby?
10. Ruby’s Jewish ethnicity/religion is overwhelming in Sorrels’ testimony – but what does being Jewish have to do with anything?   Is Sorrels trying to paint an anti-Semitic picture here of a non-Texas-native, a Jewish labor organizer and topless bar owner - with Russian heritage?
11. Is there a deliberate effort to avoid having Forrest Sorrels testify as to what was said in Oswald’s interrogation(s)?   Just as Sorrels is about to explain Oswald’s reaction to seeing the change-of-address card, WC attorneys interrupt and change the subject.

1. This is captioned as a change of address card in the Warren Commission exhibits - but to me this is a PO Box rental form:

2. This 27NOV63 FBI inventory of USPS documents related to Oswald fails to mention Hidell....

3.  Forrest Sorrels was born in 1901 in rural Texas.   Fritz and Decker are even older....likely Kennedy fans???

Hi Jason,

Again, excellent work on Dallas Secret Service SAC Forrest Sorrels.  I'll address your concerns by the numbers.

CONCERNS

1. In my reading, the five old guys at the top of the Dallas Conspiracy were: (1.1) General Walker; (1.2) Sheriff Decker; (1.3) Captain Fritz; (1.4) Forrest Sorrels; (1.5) Harry Holmes. 

*** A few of the younger men in the JFK plot were: (1.1.1) Chief Curry; (1.1.2) James Hosty; (1.1.3) Buddy Walthers; (1.1.4) Luke Mooney.

***  Young or old -- it was the Bubba Network of Dallas 1963, which loved its Minutemen dearly.

2. Sorrels was ready to convict Oswald at 12:45 PM -- because he was careless.  He urgently hoped he had an eye witness that he could manipulate.   

*** Actually, there were two eye-witnesses who literally saw a 6th floor rifle shoot rounds -- Howard Brennan and Amos Euins -- but they could not make out the face.  Brennan wavered in his identification of Lee Harvey Oswald as the shooter -- a big disappointment for the WC.  Neither could be talked into identifying LHO.

3. I also find it unlikely that the veteran SS man in Dallas, Forrest Sorrels, never heard of Dallas' dirty Jack Ruby.  Sorrels distancing himself from "Rubenstein" reminds me of Chief Curry's drawl.

4.  Change-of-address cards give the FBI and SS plenty of data to track suspects.   More people used the post office in 1963 than used credit agencies.  The FBI and SS had instant access to Postal records.  

*** The Dallas Postal Inspector had a tight relationship with the DPD, FBI and SS.  and he was present at LHO's final interview of his life.

5. Claiming a hostile reaction by LHO to the police discovery of his Alek Hidell alias, was Sorrels showing a criminal intent, an underground conspiracy, and hopefully a Communist Plot.  

*** Yet for me, this is putting words into LHO's mouth, and 90% of what Sorrels and the others claim that LHO said, I disbelieve strongly.  

6. EXCELLENT point, Jason, about seeing no reason to include the Dallas Secret Service in the DPD Homicide Department.  The only reason for Sorrels' presence is that he is a part of the JFK/LHO plot from the start. 

7. The WC did ask him one question about checking in with the PRS.  Sorrels said he checked in with them, and there was nothing and nobody suspicious in Dallas.  One sentence.

*** Yet Sorrels was close to James Hosty, and he knew all about the Minutemen in Dallas.  This proves he is part of the plot, IMHO.

*** Sorrels also knew that the handbill, WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK, was created by  Robert Alan Surrey and General Walker -- the same two men who orchestrated the public humiliation of UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson in Dallas only 30 days prior.   This was well-known in Dallas, by many.

*** Sorrels knew of a Dallas Radical Right plot to kill JFK and blame LHO and then kill LHO -- because he was part of it.  For that reason, he takes great care to keep quiet about the Minutemen and the Radical Right in Dallas.

8. The effort to emphasize Ruby’s birth name – Rubenstein -- was part of an effort to blame the JFK assassination on the Communists -- given the Dallas Radical Right belief that Communism was Jewish -- an attack on Christian values.

*** This was the ultimate justification for any Radical Right violence.

*** It is well-known by historians that Nazis sold their agenda on the claim that Communism was Jewish.

*** In this way, the terror of Communism would be joined with sermons from the pulpit about the crucifixion of Christ by Jewish leaders, so that the grass-roots community would buy into it.

*** As you say, Jason, the leaders of the JFK plot in Dallas were "old men."  Some were born in the 1890's.  They had seen the KKK March in Washington DC under Woodrow Wilson.  These values were already decrepit by 1963.

*** Reverend Billy James Hargis, a close associate of General Walker, was fully apprised of the JFK/LHO plot.  He was close to Carlos Bringuier.  

** Hargis' anti-Semitism was patent -- he called Judaism, "the Antichrist."  He referred to Earl Warren's court as "the Antichrist" Supreme Court.  So did General Walker.

9. Jason, I will deliberately bypass anything about the Jack Ruby trial, since I find it to be tangential and distracting to the JFK/LHO plot. 

*** Jack Ruby was persuaded by the Dallas Police on the weekend of 11/22/1963 to kill LHO.  They worked on him for hours.

10.  The JFK murder is about the Radical Right.  Jack Ruby was not a player in the Radical Right -- except that he was a "bribed tool of reactionary intrigue." 

*** By that I mean that Dallas cops convinced Jack Ruby that killing the cop-killer LHO would make Ruby a hero in Dallas.

***  As always, I credit Seth Kantor (1971) for his personal knowledge and insight into Jack Ruby's motives.

11. Like Dallas FBI agents Hosty and Bookhout -- Sorrels' honest testimony about the final 44 hours of LHO's life would easily reveal a Radical Right plot, so these questions were suppressed by those WC attorneys who already knew the Dallas Truth.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 21, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Jason Ward]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

6. EXCELLENT point, Jason, about seeing no reason to include the Dallas Secret Service in the DPD Homicide Department.  The only reason for Sorrels' presence is that he is a part of the JFK/LHO plot from the start. 

 

1. If I ever get to ask Sorrels one question, it is this: Why did you race back to the TSBD if you thought the shots came from the Grassy Knoll?

 

 

2. If I ever get Sorrels, Hosty, and Fritz in a room together, I would ask them: Who brought up the Mexico City trip and where did you get the information - because Hosty says he never said a word?

 

3. If I ever get to make a hidden camera interview of Sorrels and Decker, I will ask them: With such robust plans for presidential security, why and when does Sheriff Decker order his men to have no participation in the president's security, contrary to agreed plans?

[Mark Knight]

7 hours ago, Mervyn Hagger said:

There is something weird here. Either you did not read the title of the thread, or you have changed the course of the thread without changing its name. I am not deliberately doing anything other than asking some awkward questions about Edwin Walker's own 1961 published words, in a mainstream newspaper, which apparently you do not wish to address. That is your right and so is your right to ignore my questions. But please, don't accuse me of something which you are apparently doing yourself by claiming a de facto change of name of this thread. That is downright silly since it is what it is.

Mr. Hagger:

As I explained before, this is a JFK assassination discussion forum. So references to General Edwin Anderson Walker found here generally relate to how General Walker might be connected to the JFK assassination.

This NOT a generic General Edwin Anderson Walker discussion forum.

As much as Mr. Trejo and I have clashed over the years, in this case I must defend Mr. Trejo. He is attempting via his theory to connect General Walker to the JFK assassination. You have NOT attempted to either connect or to disprove a connection between Walker and the JFK assassination.

So I'm sorry if you feel disdain for what is being discussed on this thread, but you appear to be attempting to order filet mignon from an ice cream shop...and are angry that you're not getting that steak.

So that is why you see so little sympathy for your point of view. It's as if you're angry at not finding stock prices in the sports section of the paper, or not being able to see a cartoon on an all-news station.

 

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

Mr. Hagger:

As I explained before, this is a JFK assassination discussion forum. So references to General Edwin Anderson Walker found here generally relate to how General Walker might be connected to the JFK assassination.

This NOT a generic General Edwin Anderson Walker discussion forum.

As much as Mr. Trejo and I have clashed over the years, in this case I must defend Mr. Trejo. He is attempting via his theory to connect General Walker to the JFK assassination. You have NOT attempted to either connect or to disprove a connection between Walker and the JFK assassination.

So I'm sorry if you feel disdain for what is being discussed on this thread, but you appear to be attempting to order filet mignon from an ice cream shop...and are angry that you're not getting that steak.

So that is why you see so little sympathy for your point of view. It's as if you're angry at not finding stock prices in the sports section of the paper, or not being able to see a cartoon on an all-news station.

 

Steak and ice cream?  Yum.  Walker wasn't involved, he was an aside, a distraction.  Jmo.

[Jason Ward]

On 4/18/2018 at 5:28 AM, Paul Trejo said:

I'd like to concentrate on four people who weren't members of the Dallas Police or Deputies, but who sat with Captain Will Fritz during the final hour of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas Police HQ.    Here are the people:

...
4. Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes

 

Dallas Law Enforcement testimony in the Warren Commission Part 23: USPS Postal Inspector Harry Holmes

• 22NOV63: Holmes watches Dealey Plaza and the motorcade from his 5^th floor office at the Terminal Annex building.  His immediate view from his window is the TSBD.
• Holmes watches the Dealey Plaza events unfold with 50x power binoculars
• Holmes thinks there were 20-30 seconds between shots
• Holmes sees a man trying to take away a gun from a woman on a park bench, he says.  Later he realizes this was wrong.
• The shooting caused people from “every direction” to hunt around the railroad yard and cars parked there
• Holmes sees a motorcycle cop rushing into the TSBD
• Holmes wonders if the shots were meant just to "frighten people"
• Because of acoustical reverberation, Holmes cannot say where the shots originated
• Holmes “watched for hours…hoping” he would see someone running across the railroad tracks as he had a “birdseye view of the panorama of the whole area.”  Holmes “saw nothig suspicious” and reminds us he is a “trained suspicioner.”
• The USPS boss in Washington tells Holmes to search the Terminal Annex building for a sniper’s nest, but Holmes implies this is a bad idea because nothing of “any importance” is there. 
• After an hour, a clerk tells Holmes that Oswald rented a PO box in the Terminal Annex post office, 5 stories below the office where Holmes overviews the assassination
• The USPS employee who took the PO box application could not identify Oswald
• Belin gets Holmes to admit that the PO box application mentions the FPCC, the ACLU and an address of 3610 N Beckely
• Holmes matches a duplicate box key to a key found on Oswald in the presence of Capt Fritz
• The PO box receives Russian newspapers and The Daily Worker, Holmes says.
• Holmes asks the Warren Commission, “What is The Daily Worker, sir?”
• >>>23NOV64 at 11am – Holmes gives a confused and amazing story of finding the money order Oswald used to pay for his rifle, and of finding out the rifle came from Klein’s in Chicago, and that critical to all this detective work was when his secretary found an ad for Oswald’s rifle in Field and Stream<<<
• Holmes does not know when or how he discovered that Oswald had a PO box during his previous time in Dallas, 9OCT62 to 14MAY63, but insists this is part of his evidence connecting Oswald to a mail order rifle
• Holmes knew about the name HIdell from the New Orleans PO box application, in turn this name is found on the money order, confirming to Holmes that he had found a critical piece of evidence
• Two copies of The Militant were found in Oswald’s New Orleans PO box
• Holmes was with Capt Fritz “on numerous occasions” during the 2.5 day post assassination period
• 24NOV63: on the way to church, Holmes decides to forgo both religious practice and his wife.   He abandons Missus Holmes and goes to see Fritz at the DPD because, Holmes imagines, Fritz is “as sleepy as I am.”
• Capt Fritz ceremoniously announces they are about to conduct a Final Interrogation With Oswald and cordially invites Holmes to join in.
• Attending Oswald’s final interrogation along with Holmes are Fritz, Sorrels, Kelley, - and “about three detectives” of nameless importance
• 17DEC63 Holmes prepares notes of his interrogation with Oswald on 24NOV63
• Oswald is intelligent with a good memory and confirms the PO box information presented by Holmes, Holmes says
• Oswald says the X marks on a Dallas map Fritz asks about are merely the locations of job prospects given him by the Texas Employment Commission, including an X at Elm & Houston, the TSBD
• Oswald goes through a rather pedantic explanation of “being a Communist something,” Holmes says, concluding with the announcement from Oswald that he is a “true Karl Marxist.”
• Oswald says he doesn’t think much of the Bible.
• Oswald denies owning a rifle.
• Oswald argues that on his pay of $1.25 an hour he can “hardly feed” himself, much less afford a rifle
• Oswald denies any knowledge of him appearing in a picture with a rifle
• Holmes knew “all about” Oswald’s violent encounter with Carlos Bringuier, but this was not mentioned in the Sunday morning Oswald interview
• Oswald denies knowing any such person called Hidell and denies using it as an alias, Holmes says
• When asked, “Well, do you want an attorney,” Oswald says “no,” Holmes says.
• Chief Curry and other policemen are pestering Fritz to end the interview and transfer Oswald, Holmes says
• Wardrobe manager Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry comes in with clothing options for Oswald; Oswald selects a black sweater
• Chief Curry and Capt Fritz have a private conference that Holmes cannot hear
• Holmes offers Forrest Sorrels a ride back to Dealey Plaza, where Oswald will be taken to jail adjancent to the sheiff’s office, Sorrels declines
• At Belin’s urging, Holmes gives a lengthy narrative of Oswald and the FPCC; Oswald admits to being it’s secretary in New Orleans but denies wanting to start a Dallas “cell”
• At Belin’s urging, Holmes is asked if Oswald explained what he did after leaving the TSBD.  Holmes instead talks about what Oswald did around lunchtime and answers by saying that two coworkers asked Oswald to lunch but Oswald went solo to an upstairs floor instead.
• At Belin’s urging, Holmes says that Oswald talks about encountering a man with credentials who looks for a phone immediately after the assassination
• For the 3^rd or 4^th time, WC Attorney Belin tries to get Holmes to say what Oswald said about getting home.  Holmes says this topic was not discussed during interrogation.
• Oswald admits to hitting a policeman at the Texas Theatre, Holmes says.
• Holmes says that Oswald would not be a good subject for a polygraph test because he had “disciplined his mind and reflexes”
• Holmes testifies that Oswald liked to use USPS forwarding orders for his mail from Russia instead of getting the Russians to change his address
• Oswald admits he went to the “Mexican Embassy” to try to get permission to go to Russia via Cuba, Holmes testifies.
• Oswald admits to going to Mexico City, Holmes says.
• Holmes gives an incoherent stumbling mention of Russian, American, Mexican, and Cuban consulates and embassies.
• According to Holmes, Oswald does not mention carrying curtain rods in Frazier’s car; he only mentions taking his lunch.
• Holmes yet again recounts his bumbling, stuttering understanding of Oswald’s movements immediately after shots were fired.  Holmes is unnerved as he stumbles through where and when a Coke soft drink fits in to the story, and this is never made clear - but he seems intent to make it known that at some point .......“there was a Coke involved.”
• 22NOV63 P.M. Holmes is brought a JFK “Wanted or Treason” circular found by a USPS letter carrier in collection mailbox

 

CONCERNS:

1.       The story Holmes gives about finding the money order used to order Oswald’s rifle is an incoherent mess that makes no sense.   IMO, Holmes is in a jam because he has to explain how he finds the original money order in less than two days….and he never adequately explains how he knew it was a mail order rifle.  The story about sending his secretary to buy a copy of Field & Stream on Saturday 23NOV63 which in turn surprise! reveals the exact store, price, and shipping details of Oswald’s rifle is completely absurd.   This testimony around finding the provenance of the rifle and money order is shrieking of conspiracy and pre-manufactured evidence on the part of Holmes.  IMO he never planned on having to explain all this, which is reflected in a sloppy and unlikely story relying on a secretary picking up a copy of a magazine the day after the assassination.

2.       Holmes says he is watching with binoculars the railroad tracks area and “hoping” to see someone acting suspiciously.  Instead, he sees a motorcycle cop entering the TSBD.   Is this believable?   Everyone is running up the Grassy Knoll and Holmes admits to interesting activity there….so why and for what purpose is Holmes watching the front door of the TSBD so closely?

3.       Is it a strange coincidence that Holmes admits his office has a birdseye, panoramic view of Dealey Plaza with the TSBD front and center - which almost sounds like the kind of place needed to manage a successful ambush of a passing target?

4.       What kind of bionic postal clerk is able to connect a rented PO box with Tippit’s assassin at 1:30 and immediately bring this news to Holmes?  It almost seems like this postal clerk could solve the whole assassination right away single-handedly – unless, just maybe, Holmes has to retroactively invent a reason explaining how he knows Oswald has a PO Box in the very building where Holmes works?

5.       Holmes works in the very building where Oswald has a PO box, which is <200 yards from the JFK kill zone, which is also well situated to watch the TSBD closely “for hours,” which is also a block away from Sheriff Decker’s office.   Dealey Plaza is quite a place – why so little attention applied to its connections and coincidences compared to the Camp St. address in New Orleans?

6.       In the annals of American drama and witness testimony, was there ever a more blatant attempt to convey shock and ignorance than the moment when Holmes demands of the Warren Commission: "What is The Daily Worker, sir?”

7.       When and how does Holmes get the New Orleans PO box rental form not later than a day after the assassination that he uses to confront Oswald with in The Final Interrogation?

8.       If Holmes cannot testify as to where the shots were fired because of echoes in Dealey Plaza, why is Holmes so quick to brush off his boss in Washington who suggests the Terminal Annex might be a sniper location?

9.       Is there other evidence that Oswald subscribes to Russian newspapers besides the testimony of Holmes?

10.   What did Holmes hear, say, or do during the “numerous times” he met with Fritz over 2.5 days?   ...and why does a postal inspector transform into a DPD homicide detective who interrogates a murder suspect?  Is Holmes a homicide expert?

11.   How does Holmes get the information about Oswald’s Canal St scrap with Carlos Bringuier so quickly?

12.   I suspect Holmes is the first, last, and only US postal inspector to talk with a presidential assassin, yet we are to believe Holmes makes no formal record of this until almost 4 weeks after the assassination?

13.   Why isn’t Holmes playing ball with WC attorney Belin’s repeated attempts to establish -yet again- for the record how Oswald said he got home after the shooting?    Forgot his lines?

14.   How is it possible that Holmes is so sure Oswald admits to going to Mexico City and admits to the tour through communist diplomatic posts in search of a travel visa – yet Fritz and Hosty and Sorrels are so sure Oswald denies this?   

15.   Did Holmes not have enough time to practice explaining the intricate branches of communism - which Oswald is meant to lecture everyone about during interrogation?  Why does Holmes so badly muddle the picture of Oswald as fully-immersed-communist that others manage to convey so well?

16. So much of what Holmes says is chaotic and nonsensical that I'm reluctant to read too much into his specific words, even so, is his random remark that he though the shots were perhaps just meant to "frighten people" in any way similar to Buddy Walthers' remarks that he thought the shots might just be blanks?   Were some of the lesser players that day expecting only a scary attempted assassination?

17.  Are postal inspectors trained experts at identifying who is likely to deceive a lie detector test?   What is the specific basis for Holmes to claim that Oswald is not a good candidate for the polygraph and where exactly does Holmes learn this skill of visually assessing a suspect?   Could Holmes see this as part of Oswald's training at the KGB assassin's college in Minsk that Fritz is also clever to recognize?

18.   IMO, one of the few truly funny contributions from law enforcement is when Holmes goes way off the rails about a Coca-Cola, near the end of his testimony.  It’s a train wreck!   Defeated, Holmes can only finalize by saying that somewhere, somehow, at some time, there is meant to be a Coke in the TSBD that is involved with Oswald.    A bad actor badly trying to ad lib his forgotten lines?

 

Holmes is the strongest witness in proving a law enforcement conspiracy in the JFK assassination, in my view.  His explanations are too fantastic to believe. 

My subjective impression is that this is simply not a smart guy.  Holmes doesn't have the intellect to keep his story straight or at least claim he can't remember - so he makes up stuff, badly.  However, the post office is an essential pillar in the Lone Nut story, so I guess Holmes has to testify.   If it were not for the lucky way a secretary purchased Field and Stream magazine on the morning of 23NOV63, all the subsequent narrative and evidence (like the rifle purchase and money order) falls apart.   I don’t know how anyone can reasonably suggest the all-knowing all-powerful CIA is managing this comedy of errors exposed by Holmes in WC testimony.   The conspiracy is right before our eyes and has been for 50 years.

 

1. Holmes testifies he is able to search for a money order in the name "Hidell" because it is written on this New Orleans post office box application.   How does Holmes a. know to look for a New Orleans PO box and b. get this so fast - on 23NOV63?   

 

2. TOP- This is a Dallas PO box application for Oswald's late 1962-early 1963 period.  There is no evidence A Hidell was registered with this PO box, which is necessary for Oswald to receive the Carcano rifle.  

BOTTOM: New Orleans change of address card forwarding mail to Ruth Paine's house, which Holmes admits is not in Oswald's handwriting...

 

 

3. Holmes says his secretary discovers an ad for Oswald's rifle in Field and Stream on 23NOV63 - which is an amazingly lucky break because without finding this, after the assassination but before 24NOV63, Holmes has no way to explain how he knew Oswald's rifle was from the mail order retailer Klein's, nor how he knew the exact amount of the money order which he should be looking for - which, inexplicably, he is able to calculate by correctly choosing Oswald's rifle in this ad, and correctly estimating the shipping and purchase price along with any extra's Oswald may have ordered.  Without randomly discovering this ad on 23NOV63, the whole rifle and money order case centered on the post office disintegrates:

 

4. Oswald's final PO box in Dallas, discovered by an unnamed postal clerk at 1:30 on 22NOV63, just in time to alert Holmes 5 stories above
,

 

PS - Holmes does a shorter, secondary follow up deposition for WC attorney Liebeler.   There is a little bit of interesting testimony here around post office procedures which any USPS employee should be able to address.  It does not relate much to the events of 22NOV63 - 24NOV63.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Jason Ward

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Steak and ice cream?  Yum.  Walker wasn't involved, he was an aside, a distraction.  Jmo.

Buried, again.

[Mervyn Hagger]

6 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

Mr. Hagger:

As I explained before, this is a JFK assassination discussion forum. So references to General Edwin Anderson Walker found here generally relate to how General Walker might be connected to the JFK assassination.

This NOT a generic General Edwin Anderson Walker discussion forum.

As much as Mr. Trejo and I have clashed over the years, in this case I must defend Mr. Trejo. He is attempting via his theory to connect General Walker to the JFK assassination. You have NOT attempted to either connect or to disprove a connection between Walker and the JFK assassination.

So I'm sorry if you feel disdain for what is being discussed on this thread, but you appear to be attempting to order filet mignon from an ice cream shop...and are angry that you're not getting that steak.

So that is why you see so little sympathy for your point of view. It's as if you're angry at not finding stock prices in the sports section of the paper, or not being able to see a cartoon on an all-news station.

 

From an Admin I would expect something less crude. I am not angry at all. I am completely mystified why a major news item written by Walker goes unreported. One reason is that it seems no one on this thread has read the entire article and understands what it says and what it means. I guarantee that it is related to the topic title of this thread and to the subject under discussion. What is evident though is that no one wants to discuss it - primarily because they have not read it. That is why I didn't join before and why I am very likely going to depart now.

[Paz Marverde]

7 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

So I'm sorry if you feel disdain for what is being discussed on this thread, but you appear to be attempting to order filet mignon from an ice cream shop...and are angry that you're not getting that steak.

So that is why you see so little sympathy for your point of view. It's as if you're angry at not finding stock prices in the sports section of the paper, or not being able to see a cartoon on an all-news station.

Mark, you made my day. Thank you

[Paul Trejo]

20 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

1. If I ever get to ask Sorrels one question, it is this: Why did you race back to the TSBD if you thought the shots came from the Grassy Knoll?

2. If I ever get Sorrels, Hosty, and Fritz in a room together, I would ask them: Who brought up the Mexico City trip and where did you get the information - because Hosty says he never said a word?

3. If I ever get to make a hidden camera interview of Sorrels and Decker, I will ask them: With such robust plans for presidential security, why and when does Sheriff Decker order his men to have no participation in the president's security, contrary to agreed plans?

Hi Jason,

By the numbers:

1.  There was no way for a Dallas Radical Right plot against JFK to succeed without cooperation from the Dallas Secret Service.  Even if everybody in the Washington DC Secret Service was stone cold ignorant about the plot -- all that the Radical Right needed was the Dallas Secret Service.   

*** The reason was the PRS of the Secret Service.  There was such an emphasis on SOP (as every insider knew) that one could manipulate the entire Secret Service traveling show by merely manipulating the PRS.   

*** It was not only the Dallas FBI that kept back data about Walker's Dallas Minutemen from the PRS -- it was also the Dallas Secret Service.  Sorrels knew -- but held back the truth.

*** By my reading, Forrest Sorrels rushing to the TSBD showed his motivation  -- his own anxiety to micro-manage the framing of Oswald.

2.   Where did Sorrels get the data about Oswald in Mexico City?   The answer must be from Dallas FBI agent James Hosty.   Hosy says in his book, A$$ignment Oswald (1996) that he and Sorrels had a working relationship in Dallas -- and also that Hosty knew about the Mexico City trip -- including LHO's meeting with KGB assassin, Valeriy Kostikov -- in early October, 1963.

*** To get that data, Hosty had to have access to CIA information.

*** Because Hosty had that inside information, so did Forrest Sorrels.   They worked together.

3.  Deputy Roger Craig expressed astonishment when Sheriff Decker told his Deputies on 11/22/1963 that they must take no part in the protection of JFK, and be "spectators and nothing more" that morning.   So, it apparently occurred to Decker that morning as a bright idea.

All best,
--Paul 

Edited April 22, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Jason,

Your post above on Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes is so interesting and rich that I will return to it several times.    For this post, I want to underscore something particularly interesting regarding the address of Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) at 1026 North Beckley Avenue in Dallas.  The problem jutted out that several different Dallas officials claimed that LHO had given them that address -- but in different locations and instances.   

1.  Dallas officials in the arresting party claimed that they got LHO's Beckley address in the cop car driving from the Texas Theater.

2.  Dallas officials at Police HQ claimed that they got LHO's Beckley address at the station, when they searched LHO's wallet there.

3.  Fritz, Hosty and Bookhout said that LHO told them his Beckley address in Fritz's office.

4.  Harry Holmes has a completely different story -- he claims that he got it from a postal clerk who remembered LHO's name when he heard it on the radio regarding the Tippit shooting.  According to Harry Holmes, this clerk brought to him LHO's November, 1963 application for a PO Box in Dallas, and LHO had used his Beckley address on the application.   Holmes then called the Dallas Police and told them.   

OK, so that's one problem -- that we have four different accounts of how and when LHO's Beckley address became known to the Dallas Police. 

But there are more problems.   For instance, thanks to Steve Thomas last year, I learned that if we take a good look at LHO's November, 1963 application for a PO Box in Dallas, we will NOT see the address of 1026 North Beckley Avenue, instead, we will plainly see the address of 3610 North Beckley Avenue!   Here's a copy of that application from the Warren Commission exhibits:

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0096b.htm

OK, so that's another problem.   It was not a typo.  It seems to me that LHO was trying to keep his location as secret as possible, so he used a fake address on his PO box application.   So, this problem requires us to find out how Harry Holmes could use this fake address to send the Dallas Police the correct address.    Hmm.

But here's the third problem.   We know from Earlene Roberts, the supervisor of rooms there at 1026 North Beckley Avenue, that a police car she didn't recognize (and she paid attention to them) came by that house just minutes after LHO had arrived there, and perhaps a half-hour after the JFK Assassination, and honked the horn twice before driving away.

If those Dallas Police were looking for LHO, and knew where to look, then the Dallas Police already had the 1026 North Beckley Avenue address -- and didn't need it from Harry Holmes anyway.

So, that's three problems that I see -- and all of them put Harry Holmes' WC testimony into question.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 22, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

23 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Dallas Law Enforcement testimony in the Warren Commission Part 23: USPS Postal Inspector Harry Holmes

• <snip> 

14.   How is it possible that Holmes is so sure Oswald admits to going to Mexico City and admits to the tour through communist diplomatic posts in search of a travel visa – yet Fritz and Hosty and Sorrels are so sure Oswald denies this?    

Hi Jason,

This reminds me of a point that sticks out sharply for me from the WC testimony of Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes about Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) in Mexico City.  Let's look directly at the WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?

Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. ...Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?

Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.  He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican -- he wanted to go to Cuba.  Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.

Mr. BELIN. Did he go to the Cuban Embassy, did he say or not?

Mr. HOLMES. He may have gone there first, but the best of my recollection, it might have been Cuban and then the Russian, wherever he went at first, he wanted to get to Cuba, and then he went to the Russian to go by Cuba.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he wanted to go to Cuba?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. ...This wasn't reported in your interview in the memorandum that you wrote?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?

Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there. 

Several red sirens go off with this WC testimony.   First -- this is not just remembering that LHO mentioned Mexico City in his final hour of life there at the Dallas Police HQ.   Instead, Holmes remembers lots of detail -- crucial detail.

Are we supposed to believe that LHO would really open up about these details for the Dallas Police?

We know that Harry Holmes didn't make this up, because we now have CIA records fully released in 2003 (i.e. the Lopez-Hardway Report) confirming that this is basically what actually happened in Mexico City!

Is it reasonable to believe that LHO told Fritz, Sorrels, Bookhout and Holmes this crucial detail from Mexico City, and yet Harry Holmes was the only one who remembered it in great detail? 

It's more likely, in my reading, that Harry Holmes learned this information from Dallas FBI agent James Hosty, who admitted in his book, A$$ignment Oswald (1996) that he obtained CIA data in October, 1963 about LHO's trip to Mexico City.

It's more likely that Harry Holmes learned this Mexico City data from James Hosty, in the company of General Walker, Robert Alan Surrey, Captain Fritz and Sheriff Decker -- all of whom were careful enough to keep that part of their knowledge secret.

It was only Dallas USPS Inspector Harry Holmes who let the cat out of the bag.

I will add extra praise for WC attorney Belin, who pointedly asked Holmes if he had possibly read that somewhere, and got Holmes to put himself on record, for posterity, by reaffirming about LHO, "This is what he said in there."   

That was the perjury -- in my reading -- LHO never confessed any such thing; instead, Harry Holmes recalled classified CIA data that he heard from Dallas FBI agent James Hosty, during a secret JFK plot meeting in Dallas.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 23, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 12:09 AM, Jason Ward said:

Dallas Law Enforcement testimony in the Warren Commission Part 23: USPS Postal Inspector Harry Holmes

<SNIP>

CONCERNS:

1.       The story Holmes gives about finding the money order used to order Oswald’s rifle is an incoherent mess that makes no sense.   IMO, Holmes is in a jam because he has to explain how he finds the original money order in less than two days….and he never adequately explains how he knew it was a mail order rifle.  The story about sending his secretary to buy a copy of Field & Stream on Saturday 23NOV63 which in turn surprise! reveals the exact store, price, and shipping details of Oswald’s rifle is completely absurd.   This testimony around finding the provenance of the rifle and money order is shrieking of conspiracy and pre-manufactured evidence on the part of Holmes.  IMO he never planned on having to explain all this, which is reflected in a sloppy and unlikely story relying on a secretary picking up a copy of a magazine the day after the assassination.

2.       Holmes says he is watching with binoculars the railroad tracks area and “hoping” to see someone acting suspiciously.  Instead, he sees a motorcycle cop entering the TSBD.   Is this believable?   Everyone is running up the Grassy Knoll and Holmes admits to interesting activity there….so why and for what purpose is Holmes watching the front door of the TSBD so closely?

3.       Is it a strange coincidence that Holmes admits his office has a birdseye, panoramic view of Dealey Plaza with the TSBD front and center - which almost sounds like the kind of place needed to manage a successful ambush of a passing target?

4.       What kind of bionic postal clerk is able to connect a rented PO box with Tippit’s assassin at 1:30 and immediately bring this news to Holmes?  It almost seems like this postal clerk could solve the whole assassination right away single-handedly – unless, just maybe, Holmes has to retroactively invent a reason explaining how he knows Oswald has a PO Box in the very building where Holmes works?

5.       Holmes works in the very building where Oswald has a PO box, which is <200 yards from the JFK kill zone, which is also well situated to watch the TSBD closely “for hours,” which is also a block away from Sheriff Decker’s office.   Dealey Plaza is quite a place – why so little attention applied to its connections and coincidences compared to the Camp St. address in New Orleans?

6.       In the annals of American drama and witness testimony, was there ever a more blatant attempt to convey shock and ignorance than the moment when Holmes demands of the Warren Commission: "What is The Daily Worker, sir?”

Hi Jason,

Now I'll respond to the first 6 of your concerns about Dallas USPD Inspector Harry Holmes:

1.  Holmes' story about the alleged Money Order (MO) for the alleged Mail Order rifle -- which he claims to have discovered on the day after the JFK Assassination -- is beyond suspicious.

*** Why does Holmes suspect a Mail Order rifle?

*** Why does Holmes send his secretary seeking a copy of Field & Stream the next morning to find the Mail Order rifle ad?

*** BTW, I don't suspect "manufacturered evidence" as you evidently suspect.  Instead, I accept the testimony of Marina Oswald -- this was the rifle of Lee Harvey Oswald.  Also, I accept the Washington DC analysis of the Mail Order data and MO.

*** What I do question -- as you do -- is how Dallas Postal Inspector Harry Holmes got all of this information in a tidy package by lunchtime the next day.

*** IMHO, all of this information came from the Dallas FBI, especially James Hosty.  Hosty had been tracking Lee Harvey Oswald since 1962 (and we have this in WC testimony).

*** It may seem dumb enough for an old guy losing his memory to invent this story, yet it seems more likely to me that Dallas FBI agent James Hosty came up with the story, and taught it to Harry Holmes.

2.  It is reasonable to me that Harry Holmes would see DPD motorcycle Officer Marrion Baker running into the TSBD front door. 

*** First,, Harry Holmes is on the 5th floor of the Texas Annex building -- all the way across Dealey Plaza.  So, it would be easy to see.

*** Secondly, Marrion Baker is running in the opposite direction of the crowd, which is rushing the Grassy Knoll picket fence area. 

*** There had to be some facts in his story. 

3.  I have often thought it was bizarre that this JFK plotter (as I opine) was also watching the JFK action from his office by using high-powered binoculars.  It seems to me that there is a little bit too much carefree attitude in Holmes' WC testimony.

4.  The flaw in the story about Holmes' postal clerk bringing him the PO box application of Lee Harvey Oswald was exposed in the fact that Oswald entered a fake address on that application (i.e. 3610 N. Beckley instead of 1206 N. Beckley).

*** Why does Harry Holmes invent this story anyway?

*** In my CT, it isn't Harry who invents the story -- it's James Hosty who invents it, although neither Hosty nor Holmes bothered to look at the fake address that Oswald printed on his PO Box application!

5. I'm delighted, Jason, that you highlight the macabre quality of Dealey Plaza as a potential killing zone. 

*** The site of the Dallas County Jail, where public executions were historical held;

*** The site of the parking lot of Dallas Deputies and officers of the Dallas County Jail, there behind the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll

*** The site of the Texas Annex Building, where Harry Holmes manages Oswald's PO box and North Beckley address (as he supposes).

*** Why is so much attention given to New Orleans instead of Dallas?  Because Jim Garrison brought most evidence of the JFK Truth back in 1968, and he had nobody in Dallas to help him. 

*** So, we have had comparatively little Dallas data until a half-century later. 

*** Until 2015 (Caufield), Garrison has been our richest source of JFK CT data.

6. As for Holmes' child-like question, "What is The Daily Worker, sir?”  I again believe that James Hosty designed that question and fed it to Harry Holmes.

*** My reasoning is that because Harry Holmes was such a simple man, James Hosty chose to capitalize on this fact.

*** We have heard of "crazy like a fox."  In the South -- when dealing with Yankees -- there is also the case of "ignorant like a fox."

*** This was a deliberate case of attempting to appear dumb and bumbling, to eliminate all suspicion of a sophisticated plot to kill JFK there in Dallas.  That's my take on it.

All best,
--Paul

Edited April 23, 2018 by Paul Trejo