Fire Me?

[James DiEugenio]

If you do need anymore evidence on this, how about getting it from the guilty parties?

When Dulles and Howard Hunt saw that they were going to get no slack from the Taylor Commission, and that the military itself had thrown them under the bus, they designed their counterattack around this whole issue of the so called cancelled D Day air strikes.  As I have said, Howard Hunt wrote the articles under Charles Murphy's name for Fortune magazine.  They said that the operation failed because JFK cancelled the D Day air strikes.  Kennedy was so furious that, not knowing Hunt wrote the piece, he stripped Murphy  of his Air Force reverse status.  But Murphy said that was OK, since his allegiance was not to JFK  but to Dulles. (Destiny Betrayed, p. 54)

Bugliosi calls this kind of thing consciousness of guilt.

But that is still not the capper.  In Hunt's book on the Bay of Pigs, Give us this Day, he himself admits that Cabell had to ask permission for the second strike, since the president had only authorized the pre D Day ones!  In other words Hunt knew he was penning black propaganda for Murphy.

Keep listening to Cliff, he will have Bundy in bed with Harriman pretty soon running the plot to kill JFK.

Edited April 20, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Ron Bulman]

Did Dulles visit Texas twice in the months leading up to the assassination?  Specifically on or about 8/15/63,  3 months and a week before it at LBJ's ranch (and anywhere else?).  Then again in Houston and Dallas, 10/25 - 10/29, less than a month before, once again, anywhere else.?

The first is mentioned In Devil's Chessboard on page 493 but not specifically mentioned in the end notes.  It mentions a syndicated picture in the Chicago Tribune  on 8/15 of LBJ on a horse with Ladybird and Dulles admiring him.  This was hashed over on jfkfacts when the book came out.  Mr. Talbot said it was not on Dulles calendar in the book.  Someone posted that the picture was from the 1960 presidential campaign.  So some said it didn't happen.  I don't know.  But I trust David Talbot to have a source he believed in for good reason.

The second was the Texas anomaly of his east and west coast book tours.  "his datebook left out as much as it revealed with big gaps in his schedule while there".  While in Dallas might he have conversed with his former Deputy Director at the cia, four star general Charles Cabell also fired by JFK over the Bay of Pigs.  Or his brother Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell who we have recently learned was a cia asset since 1956?  As Dulles schedule  had big gaps and he had at least 3 full days, it's not that far out of the way to circle through Austin or by LBJ's ranch on the way to Dallas from Houston.

The reason I mentioned the last part is Howard Hunt.  In his rambling long running deathbed confession to being a bench warmer for the Big Event he talks about being recruited in Miami by Frank Sturgis/Fiorini and David Morales for a "off the books" operation being developed by Bill Harvey.  He doesn't trust Harvey enough to join.  Morales tells him the Vice President has signed off on it.

If LBJ was sounded out so to speak to see if he could handle being president and what it would take to get him there might Dulles have done so away from Washington?  In addition to addressing other aspects while he was there? 

[James DiEugenio]

Ron:

Talbot was wrong about that picture.  It was not taken in 1963.

Dulles was in Dallas in late October, the excuse being the book tour.  Dulles actually joked about this later.

I find it so fascinating that Hunt was detailed to Dulles for the Taylor Commission and the book, and somehow he cannot explain where he was the day JFK was killed.  And Helms and Angleton had to manufacture an alibi for him being in Dallas that day.

I personally think the whole later thing abut Hunt and the Big Event was a confection. 

[Kirk Gallaway]

Here it is Ron,  Honestly, I don't think Bobby has a clue that Dulles was behind his brother's death, but who knows? I wrote:

To those here like me, who speculate about CIA and Dulles's  possible hand in the Kennedy Assassination. I listen for nuance in this phone call initiated by LBJ in the company of RFK to Dulles, to ask Dulles to go to Mississippi to represent the administration to look into the missing 3 civil rights workers who were murdered and had their car set on fire.

This is 8 months after the assassination. 2/3rds of it is just between Bobby and Dulles. There are some curious skips in the recording , around 5:00 Dulles asks Bobby about the health of his brother Teddy, who had received a serious injury in a plane accident. Twice later, once to Bobby, and then later to LBJ, Dulles later mentions that he's busy on this commission, which is of course, the Warren Commission.

At 7:00 Dulles asks Bobby why RFK picked him, to which RFK responds, "because I know you". Dulles lets off an uproarious laugh and says, "I've been a little mad at you about this Bay of Pigs book, but I can forget this very easily.I don't stay angry long"". Bobby, "well I'm glad, ".

 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

10 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Keep listening to Cliff, he will have Bundy in bed with Harriman pretty soon running the plot to kill JFK.

Listening to Jim you'd never hear about Bundy proposing the pre-D-Day strikes...or Bundy's calls to AF1 on 11/22/63 telling LBJ the lone assassin was in custody...or Harriman's role in the Diem overthrow...or Harriman's role in partitioning Laos...or the lie Harriman told LBJ that the US government's top Kremlinologists had concluded the Soviets were not involved in JFK's murder...and you'll never know about the prima facie case for conspiracy that can be made in 60 seconds.

You're the master of all details, Jim, except for the important ones.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

12 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Oh no, here we go again.

The idea that somehow Bundy and Rusk were actually responsible for the Bay of Pigs debacle is simply ridiculous.

The plan all along was to have the D Day air strikes launched from a strip on the island.

But that's not what happened.

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1961-63v10/d64

(quote on, emphasis added)

64. Memorandum From the Presidentʼs Special As(s)istant for National Security Affairs (Bundy) to President Kennedy

Washington, March 15, 1961.

SUBJECT

• Meeting on Cuba, 4:00 PM, March 15, 1961

CIA will present a revised plan for the Cuban operation.1 They have done a remarkable job of reframing the landing plan so as to make it unspectacular and quiet, and plausibly Cuban in its essentials.

The one major problem which remains is the air battle. I think there is unanimous agreement that at some stage the Castro Air Force must be removed. It is a very sketchy force, in very poor shape at the present, and Colonel Hawkins (Bissellʼs military brain) thinks it can be removed by six to eight simultaneous sorties of B-26s. These will be undertaken by Cuban pilots in planes with Cuban Air Force markings. This is the only really noisy enterprise that remains.

My own belief is that this air battle has to come sooner or later, and that the longer we put it off, the harder it will be. Castroʼs Air Force is currently his Achillesʼ heel, but he is making drastic efforts to strengthen it with Russian planes and Russian-trained pilots.

Even the revised landing plan depends strongly upon prompt action against Castroʼs air. The question in my mind is whether we cannot solve this problem by having the air strike come some little time before the invasion. A group of patriotic airplanes flying from Nicaraguan bases might knock out Castroʼs Air Force in a single day without anyone knowing (for some time) where they came from, and with nothing to prove that it was not an interior rebellion by the Cuban Air Force, which has been of very doubtful loyalty in the past; the pilots will in fact be members of the Cuban Air Force who went into the opposition some time ago. Then the invasion could come as a separate enterprise, and neither the air strike nor the quiet landing of patriots would in itself give Castro anything to take to the United Nations.

I have been a skeptic about Bissellʼs operation, but now I think we are on the edge of a good answer. I also think that Bissell and Hawkins have done an honorable job of meeting the proper criticisms and cautions of the Department of State.

McGeorge Bundy

{quote off)

 

That is what happened: the false flag air strikes occurred on D-Day-2; they were supposed to take out Castro's air force.  The attacks failed, dooming the mission, but Kennedy ordered the operation to proceed.

 

Kennedy fanboys can't admit he screwed up.

 

Quote

The CIA knew this and it was in the plan submitted on March 15th. (Destiny Betrayed, second edition, p. 45)

A plan that Bundy revised (see above).

Quote

 In fact, when JFK vetoed the first location, the second location was chosen for precisely that reason--it had  clearing that could serve as an airstrip.  In fact, the designer of the plan, Hawkins, admitted that he was aware of this himself. (ibid, p. 46)  

McGeorge Bundy, Cliff's Darth Vader, told Cabell the night before the launch that there would be no D Day air strikes unless an air strip was secured by the invaders. (ibid) It was at this point that Bissell and Cabell went to see Rusk.  Rusk offered to let them speak to JFK, they said no thanks.

And in your mind that was pressure on Kennedy to intervene -- Cabell refusing to speak with Kennedy D-Day-1?

Dulles went down to Puerto Rico and didn't take part in the operation at all; Cabell passed on an opportunity to make the case for intervention -- that constituted pressure on Kennedy to intervene, the CIA's silence D-Day-1?

Quote

Its obvious from the evidence in the Kirkpatrick Report and the Taylor Commission report that Bundy and Rusk were carrying out Kennedy's wishes.

They were carrying out Robert Lovett's wishes.

Are you denying that Lovett opposed the operation? 

Are you denying that Rusk complained about the scope of the Cuban project the moment he got to Foggy Bottom? 

Are you denying that Rusk and Bundy owed their jobs to Lovett?

Are you denying that Bundy proposed the D-Day-2 airstrikes?

Quote

And McNamara told Noel Twyman the same thing.(ibid)  The CIA knew there were no D Day air strikes included in the final plan.  They then tried to get JFK to approve them at the midnight hour.

4:30 in the morning on D-Day when Castro's planes were about to hit the invasion force.  And in your mind that is massive pressure to intervene?

Quote

I ask any objective reader, if Rusk, Bundy and McNamara are all saying the same thing are we really to believe that somehow they were all betraying JFK, when the CIA KNEW IN WRITING A MONTH BEFORE THERE WOULD BE NO D DAY AIR STRIKES UNLESS A STRIP WAS ATTAINED ON THE ISLAND!  How much more clear can the evidence be?

No one is disputing that, Jim.  Bundy's plan was to stage air strikes two days before D-Day.  There was an obvious change in plans.

Bundy:The question in my mind is whether we cannot solve this problem by having the air strike come some little time before the invasion...Then the invasion could come as a separate enterprise, and neither the air strike nor the quiet landing of patriots would in itself give Castro anything to take to the United Nations.

Like it or not, Jim, Bundy's plan prevailed.  There had to be at least a day in between the operations so they'd appear separate, that's why another false flag attack D-Day-1 was denied..

Quote

Well, if you still need more, how about getting it from the horse's mouth.  When the idea of a strike came up launched from Nicaragua with JFK, Rusk and Stevenson, Kennedy said he was not signed on with that decision.  He wanted any D Day air strike to come from an air strip on the island. (ibid)

The false flag airstrikes were launched from Nicaragua.

Kennedy hadn't thought the operation thru.  He screwed the pooch.  He wanted D-Day airstrikes to come from the island.  But the only way that could happen was if Castro's air force was completely taken out before the invasion.

The false flag attacks failed, Cuban air superiority won the day.

You can bet Rusk and Bundy knew the BOP operation was doomed -- but they let Kennedy order the go-ahead anyway.

Provided a wonderful rationale for the removal of Dulles and the promotion of Richard Helms as head of clandestine ops.

Quote

In other words, here you have JFK, Bundy, Rusk, Stevenson and McNamara all saying the same thing.  But Cabell and Bissell are trying to change the plan at he last minute.  As was Burke. As was Nixon, who JFK called after the first day.

Only after the die was cast -- Cuban air superiority guaranteed -- did Cabell, Burke and Nixon put tepid pressure on Kennedy to commit war crimes.

Quote

If one combines that with the confessions of Dulles and Bissell in Lucien Vanden Broucke's groundbreaking article in Diplomatic History,  what else do you need?  They both admitted that they thought Kennedy would cave when he saw the operation failing.  That to avoid defeat he would send in the navy and Marines.  He did not.  And he himself rallied this and said it to Red Fay, that Dulles and Burke had him figured wrong.

Early Alzheimers Allen must have fallen asleep at this meeting where Kennedy definitively ruled out US intervention.

(quote on, emphasis added)

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1961-63v10/d66

Foreign Relations of the United States, 1961–1963, Volume X, Cuba, January 1961–September 1962

66. Editorial Note

On March 16, 1961, CIA officials outlined for President Kennedy the revisions to the Zapata plan that the President had called for on the previous day. The Presidentʼs appointment book indicates that the meeting took place in the White House from 4:15 to 5:23 p.m. The meeting was attended by Vice President Johnson, McNamara, Rusk, Mann, Berle, Dulles, Bissell, McGeorge Bundy, William Bundy, and Gray. (Kennedy Library, Presidentʼs Appointment Book) Although not listed in the appointment book, it is clear from his subsequent debriefing on the meeting that Admiral Burke also attended. According to Grayʼs notes on the meeting:

“At meeting with the President, CIA presented revised concepts for the landing at Zapata wherein there would be air drops at first light with [Page 160]the landing at night and all of the ships away from the objective area by dawn. The President decided to go ahead with the Zapata planning; to see what we could do about increasing support to the guerrillas inside the country; to interrogate one member of the force to determine what he knows; and he reserved the right to call off the plan even up to 24 hours prior to the landing.” (Summary notes prepared on May 9, 1961, by General Gray; Kennedy Library, National Security Files, Countries Series, Cuba, Subjects, Taylor Report)

On March 17 Admiral Burke provided the JCS with additional details about the discussion of the revised Zapata plan. According to Burke, the President wanted to know what the consequences would be if the operation failed. He asked Burke how he viewed the operationʼs chance of success. Burke indicated that he had given the President a probability figure of about 50 percent. President Kennedy also inquired what would happen if it developed after the invasion that the Cuban exile force were pinned down and being slaughtered on the beach. If they were to be re-embarked, the President wanted to know where they could be taken. According to Burkeʼs account of the meeting: “It was decided they would not be re-embarked because there was no place to go. Once they were landed they were there.” In the course of the discussion, it was emphasized that the plan was dependent on a general uprising in Cuba, and that the entire operation would fail without such an uprising. (Review of Record of Proceedings Related to Cuban Situation, May 5; Naval Historical Center, Area Files, Bumpy Road Materials)

Edited April 20, 2018 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

According to the CNN documentary series on the Kennedys, JFK spent a lot of time during the BOP invasion on the phone with his dad, the guy who would later say --

"It's a lucky thing they were found out early."

Getting rid of Dulles was worth the hit JFK took from the operation's failure.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Cliff Varnell

[James DiEugenio]

No one knows who RFK suspected of killing his brother.

Simply because there is no written record of such a thing.  And there is no credible instance where he expressed his refined thoughts about it to a trusted source.

There is credible evidence that he did suspect a powerful domestic rightwing conspiracy that was in opposition to his brother's aims in foreign policy.  This was in the message to Walton to get to the Soviets within about a week of JFK's murder.

IMO, a taped phone call which RFK likely knew was being monitored is not any evidence of one thing or another.

But, Dan Hardway did come up with interesting evidence that Johnson and his pals tried to transfer the blame for him placing Dulles on the WC to RFK.

[James DiEugenio]

For those who are not aware of the Hardway essay on the subject.

To me, this is the best analysis of it I have seen:

http://realhistoryarchives.blogspot.com/2015/10/dan-hardway-rebuts-shenons-assertion.html

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Kirk Gallaway]

As I said, JFK wanted Lovett as Secretary of Defense, but Lovett was 22 years JFK's senior and was in the process of retiring from public service.

 

A little background on Lovett:  Lovett married into the New York Brown banking family that, in 1931, would merge to become  Brown Brothers Harriman.

He was appointed Secretary of War for Air by FDR and oversaw the expansion of the American Air force in WW2 at the same time John J. Mc Cloy was appointed General xxxistant Secretary.

President Truman refused to accept the resignation of both Lovett and McCloy when they and Harvey Bundy (father to Mac George Bundy) gave their resignations in September 1945. Given ties to Mac Cloy, his marriage into the Brown family  and eventually his career at Brown Brothers Harriman. Lovett is about as "Eastern Establishment" as you can get.

Later Lovett was a hawk and a very big proponent of getting increased budget spending for the the Korean War.

 

The exploits of Lovett, Harriman, and Mc Cloy were detailed in a book by Walter Isaacson and Evan Thomas called "The Wise Men" along with Dean Acheson, Charles Bohlen, and George F. Kennan as members of the East Coast Policy Establishment. Five of the six were from the so-called "Georgetown Set".  Acheson, Harriman, and Lovett had known each other since their days in prep school and in college and Wall Street. 

Of course, as we know JFK craftily tried to "outhawk" Nixon during the presidential debates. Certainly on the surface, when you add Mac Namara Head of Ford Motors and Dillon's long time connection to John Foster Dulles, It doesn't appear there was anything related to Kennedy's choice or attempted choice of his pertinent cabinet positions that made you think that there was anything  else in the offing than the international banking elites promoting the prevalent cold war paradigm.

 

To those seeking parallels to the current political times, JFK could hardly be said to be like Trump and "bring us new people we've never   heard of to drain the swamp in Washington". Does that mean Trump is even more likely than JFK to be assassinated?--------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------Pfff!---------Ha ha ha

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Kirk Gallaway

[Ron Bulman]

Listening to RFK, Johnson and Dulles speak eight months after JFK's death so civilly is weird given today's knowledge about the probable prior knowledge and possible involvement of either of the latter two if not both.

Mr. Hardway's analysis of Dulles appointment to the Warren Omission cuts to the bone of the issue, filet's it then chops it up.  The link led me to re read his Declaration on behalf of Jeff Morley's suit.  I really wish he would write a book.

 http://aarclibrary.org/talbot-case-declaration-of-dan-l-hardway/

Edited April 22, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, when you read Hardway, and then listen to him and Eddy talk together, you understand why the CIA brought Johannides back and then lied about him.

There were two stages to the containment of those two guys.

Stage 1: Instead of having them go to Langley and request stuff directly, the CIA decided to build their own room at the HSCA.  In that room they had both a liaison and a secretary.  There was also a huge wall safe.  They had to make out requests, the CIA would bring them in the next day and they would have to sign for them.  At the end of the day, they would have to turn in everything: the memos and the notes.  These would go inside the safe.

This did not seem to slow them down.  So stage 2 was enacted.  This included bringing back Johannides.

Stage 2:  There would now be a delay in getting the stuff they wanted.  But in addition to that, they would bring it in with pages missing.  See, one way to look at this is that Johannides would understand what they were looking for.  And he came in as a Fail Safe measure.  

I think this is why the CIA is fighting Morley tooth and nail.

Edited April 22, 2018 by James DiEugenio

[Ron Bulman]

In an earlier post on this thread I mentioned Wall Street Bankers/JFK's Secretary of the Treasury C Douglas Dillon and former Wall Street lawyer Dulles possibly acting on behalf of "the bankers".  "The Bankers" own/are the Federal Reserve, as most know.  Money's not made by the Government but by Them, so they can charge the government interest on the money they make and loan to it.  JFK figured it out and tried to stop it by restoring the right of the government to issue money backed by silver.  He started printing government money.

As a former bankers/ fed reserve lawyer protecting their interests in the 20's - 30's world wide as such, then with the OSS/CIA in the 40's - 50's and as director of the CIA he became the perfect conduit for their actions on 11/22/63.  They stopped printing government backed money when JFK died and haven't since.

Here' something old I stumbled across today.   I've not read it all yet, it's long, but scroll down about an inch to the Louis T. McFadden part.  "one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known".  From 1932.

http://www.john-f-kennedy.net/thefederalreserve.htm

Edited April 22, 2018 by Ron Bulman

[Pat Speer]

It's been awhile but at one point I read a great deal about the BOP screw-up, and who was responsible.

And it comes down to this: the CIA botched it and tried to blame it on Kennedy.

Kennedy told the CIA the BOP invasion could not point to the U.S., and screw up JFK's hopes for better relations with Latin America. They said OK boss, but secretly figured he'd bail them out if the invasion failed--which they knew was quite likely.

Then came the invasion, and the landing in Florida of a phony plane supposedly flown from Cuba but actually flown by one of the exiles. This plane was supposed to sell the world that Cuban pilots were rebelling against Castro. But Adlai Stevenson figured out what was up and told JFK he didn't want to lie to the U.N. and say this wasn't a hoax.

So someone--I recall it as being Rusk--told the CIA to cancel U.S. support for the next day's attack on the Cuban Air Force, which was to be performed by planes flown in from Guatemala.

Now, here's the key that most ignore. Hunt and others flipped out about this and convinced Cabell to call Kennedy and get the support planes re-instated. So Cabell called but, according to Hunt, wilted and said no when Kennedy asked if these support planes were absolutely necessary.

So the invasion proceeded without direct help from the U.S. military. And failed miserably.

Now, here's the other key that most ignore. At this point JFK approved having American planes fly cover and protect the next wave of planes coming in from Guatemala. But someone (who was eventually named in a CIA Oral History with Jake Esterline) forgot to take into account time zones when planning this operation, and these planes arrived without cover, and were promptly shot down by the Cuban Air Force. Making matters worse, the surviving pilots from the first day's failure were reluctant to fly back to Cuba. As a result, the pilots in this second wave included several members of the Alabama Air National Guard, if I recall. So the role of the U.S. in the invasion became public knowledge anyway.

Well, sort of. For several years the government told the world these men were mercenaries.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by Pat Speer

[Gene Kelly]

Jim:

As Vincent Salandria once stated (about the Paines), this fabled appointment of Dulles to the WC by RFK is a "clear beacon" to the plotters and perpetrators.  Talbot characterizes Dulles as a sociopath ... but I think he was worse than that. The work of Hardway and Lopez is critical to a proper understanding of what went down. Their CIA "containment" during HSCA - information delays and the Johannides filter - is depressing and disappointing to ponder. Your analysis that Johannides would understand what they were looking for (i.e. as a fail-safe measure) is excellent.  I've stated previously that a fellow I once worked with (an investigator) was part of the HSCA, and he told me several things that remain poignant 20 years later ... one being that, getting information out of the CIA was an impossibly difficult task, and that they made it as cumbersome as possible. 

This thread is most interesting and informative.

Gene