The Tippit Case in the New Millenium

[Joseph McBride]

I appreciate your good work on the case, Bill, and John Armstrong's, along with that

of Jim and others. The late Larry Ray Harris blazed the trail, as did Gary Murr. Greg Lowrey and Bill

Pulte have done some crucial work.

[Ron Bulman]

26 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But in order to be totally fair to Mr. Steve Thomas with regard to his previous post when he said that Lee Oswald "gave all his money to Marina", perhaps we should cut Steve some slack and assume that Steve probably wasn't talking about every last coin that Lee had in his pants pockets on 11/22/63. Steve could have just been referring to "folding" currency. But, of course, even if that's what he was referring to, he would still be wrong, because Oswald did not leave behind all of his paper money on the dresser at Ruth Paine's house on November 22nd either. He still had $13 on him at the time of his arrest.

Speaking of the topic of "Oswald's Cash On Hand On 11/22/63".....

I've always noticed that the Warren Commission overlooked one very small purchase that Lee Oswald made on Nov. 22 --- the Coke purchase from the Depository lunchroom. The WC, in its very detailed anaylsis of Oswald's finances in Appendix XIV of the Warren Report, failed to mention anything about Oswald's probable Coca-Cola purchase on 11/22/63. (It's possible, however, that Oswald didn't actually purchase the Coke at all. He could have possibly grabbed an open Coke bottle off of one of the tables inside the lunchroom just after his encounter with Marrion Baker and Roy Truly. But the thing that, to me, suggests that Oswald probably did buy the Coke is the fact that there is testimony from Mrs. Robert Reid which indicates the Coke she saw Oswald holding was a "full" bottle of Coke [see 3 H 278], versus it being a "used" bottle left on a table by someone else.

So, if Oswald did, in fact, buy the Coca-Cola with his own money on Nov. 22, it means that Lee left the Paine house that morning with a total of $15.20 in his pockets. His expenditures on Nov. 22nd would have included the Coke (10 cents), the short bus ride on Cecil McWatters' bus (23 cents), and the ride to Oak Cliff in William Whaley's taxicab ($1.00, including the 5-cent tip).

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Some of my miscellanous thoughts....

Lee Harvey Oswald leaving behind the money and his ring doesn't PROVE he shot the President, of course. But the TOTALITY of unusual things he did on November 21st and 22nd certainly indicate that Friday, November 22, 1963, was not just an ordinary regular work day for Lee Harvey Oswald.

For example:

1.) Visiting his wife at Ruth Paine's house on a THURSDAY instead of his normal FRIDAY.

2.) Leaving Marina $170 and his wedding ring (in tandem) -- which left only approximately $15 in Lee's pockets when he left the Paine house on November 22 (and, remember, per Buell Wesley Frazier, Lee was not planning on returning to Irving on Friday night).

3.) Telling Marina to "take as much money as I [Marina] needed and to buy everything", which was highly unusual for the penny-pinching Mr. Oswald, according to his wife.

4.) Telling Wesley Frazier he was going to Irving to get some curtain rods at the Paine house, which we know was a lie (based on the preponderance of evidence and testimony that proves it was a lie).

5.) Taking a large paper package into work with him on Nov. 22.

6.) Taking no lunch to work on Nov. 22, which was very unusual (per Buell Frazier's testimony).

And when we add in the evidence of Oswald's guilt that was discovered AFTER the assassination, then what do all of these things suggest--in combination with one another? Do they suggest the actions of an innocent patsy? Or do they suggest the actions of a person who had a one-man plan to murder the President?

Mr. Spence, your witness.

 

Suggest David?  OMG your speculating?  You have a Theory?  It suggests to me that maybe Oswald knew something about a operation he had been told about, not necessarily an assassination, that he had a maybe minor role in.  And a further role in the aftermath of it?  His actions at the Texas Theater suggest he was looking for a contact.  A way out of Dallas, Texas, the country?  Maybe he expected further funding from another source in that respect.  Then again did he still wear his ring on a regular basis?  He and Marina were separated.  Maybe he decided, you won't even talk to me anymore, I'm tired of it, bye.  On the other hand was he trying to provide for his family by leaving the $170?  The 13.87 left out of the 15.20 he kept was more than enough for a poor guy to get by for a week in 63, eating cheese sandwiches in the lunchroom.  The 23 cent bus fare and $1 taxi ride were unexpected expenses.  A coke cost a dime.  If the normally poor tightwad Oswald planned on killing the president wouldn't he keep the full $185.20 for his unplanned unknown method of getaway? 

[Ron Bulman]

33 minutes ago, Bill Simpich said:

Paul B. was asking about the background of Hill and Westbrook...

Jerry Hill worked at the personnel division. Neither Hill nor his boss Captain Pinky Westbrook had any business being involved in these homicide investigations. Their beat was internal affairs, employment applications, and the like. They knew more about the inside dirt at the Dallas Police Department than anyone else, and specifically the proclivities of the various officers. They knew who they could work with, and who to avoid.

Jerry Hill was transferred to assist Westbrook in the personnel division during October 1963.

Let me make a few quick points about what Hill and Westbrook did between 12:30-2 pm on 11/22...

Jerry Hill came up with the three hulls on the 6th floor, and waved out the window to the troops below.  The timing provided by William Allen of the Dallas Times Herald established that it was the eighth shot of his roll.  (see below).  Allen estimated the time of Hill's wave as 12:55, about fifteen minutes earlier than the official story.  Hill's arrival at the DPD was apparently at 12:51, according to a video of the scene (the original link is dead, looking for it...) The video shows that he left in Car No. 207, driven by Patrolman Jim Valentine.

If that is accurate, that would mean that Jerry got to the 6th floor in about 4 minutes or so.

In Hasan Yusuf's excellent research on this case, he recounts:  

Readers should keep in mind that according to Donald Willis, in two emails to researcher Tony Pitman, WFAA-TV cameraman Tom Alyea (who filmed DPD officers and Dallas county deputy Sheriffs as they searched the sixth floor of the TSBD) claimed that the spent shell casings were discovered at 12:55 pm... Partial confirmation for Alyea's claim comes from this list of photographs taken in Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination, in which it is stated that at approximately 12:55 pm, a photograph captured by William Allen of the Dallas Times Herald shows; "Sheriff [is] waving out of sixth floor window [of the TSBD] next to 'the' window."

If you agree with the general story that at about 1:00 pm Oswald enters his rooming house for a few minutes, it is worth noting that  Car 207 goes by Oswald's place and goes "tit tit", if she was right, that was at least Valentine.  CE 2249 shows that "a suggested lead" was to find out who was driving #207 in front of Oswald's home. Westbrook's response was to write in his report that 207 remained at the depository until 3:30 pm that day,.  Westbrook's claim should not be blindly accepted..   

Between 12:51-1:00 pm, Valentine or another officer had plenty of time to drive Car 207 across the Houston viaduct and reach Oswald's home.  Yusuf estimated that the drive was as short as 3 minutes if an officer going 60 mph across the viaduct.  9 minutes would have been no problem.

Westbrook wrote in another report dated 12/23/63 that he looked at all the forms and couldn't figure out which car came to LHO's rooming house on North Beckley that day.

By 1:25 or so both Hill and Westbrook where at the Tippit crime scene.  By 1:40, Westbrook had possession of a wallet supposedly found on the scene by Officer Kenneth Croy - according to FBI officer Bob Barrett, Westbrook told him that the wallet had both Oswald and Hidell's ID in it.

In the next thirty minutes, Hill came up with:

The custody of the hulls used to shoot Tippit;

The custody of the revolver supposedly used to shoot Tippit;

Lied - by his own admission 20 years later to Dale Myers - to the Warren Commission about a call to the dispatcher where he claimed the hulls were from an automatic rather than from a 38 special;

Lied - according to the FBI - with the claim that LHO fired the revolver while inside the Texas Theatre.

My evidence on these final points can be found in an article I wrote in 2015. here.

This is a great thread you all have going here - the work Joe McBride and others have done is stellar - it is going to take a small army to resolve all of these issues - don't let anyone disrupt this thread.

 

 

 

Thank you sir.  I've never read of video of Hill leaving the TSBD in car 207.  By "she" I assume you mean Earlene Roberts, Oswald's landlady.  Didn't she say there were two officers in the car that went tit tit on the horn then took off while Oswald was changing clothes/getting his pistol?

[David Von Pein]

Ron B.,

It's interesting how CTers can conveniently turn all the evidence around into a theory that "maybe Oswald knew something about a operation he had been told about, not necessarily an assassination, that he had a maybe minor role in" [Ron Bulman quote].

OSWALD brings the rifle into the TSBD (despite the protests of CTers who deny this fact).

OSWALD lies to Buell Frazier (and the police) about the "curtain rods" that LHO says were in the package.

OSWALD has no believable (or provable) alibi for 12:30 PM on 11/22.

OSWALD'S prints are all over the Sniper's Nest (the location of JFK's killer).

OSWALD shoots and kills J.D. Tippit shortly after leaving the TSBD.

OSWALD did numerous "odd" and "out of the ordinary" things on both November 21st and 22nd.

And yet CTers will come up with every excuse in the book in order to defend Lee Oswald for TWO murders. I can only wonder WHY they continue to do this, given the evidence that unquestionably ALL LEADS TO ONE MAN named Oswald. That might be the biggest "mystery" in this whole case. And to think ALL the evidence against Oswald is phony or manufactured----please----that's a sign of sheer desperation utilized by conspiracy theorists like Barry Scheck, Johnnie Cochran, and F. Lee Bailey --- i.e., defense attorneys who have no choice BUT to argue such wholesale fakery in order for their client to have even a slim chance of being exonerated.

Edited May 7, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

Yes David what you quote which I said is speculation.  Not totally unreasonable taken in the full context of what I stated.  You didn't address the funding issue you were originally trying to.  Why didn't he take the money and run, after the assassination, if he was a lone nut?  Why go to the Texas Theater and keep changing seats like he was looking for somebody?

Did he expect a ride, and funds?  Was he led into a trap?  To become a Patsy?

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Yes David what you quote which I said is speculation.  Not totally unreasonable taken in the full context of what I stated.  You didn't address the funding issue you were originally trying to.  Why didn't he take the money and run, after the assassination, if he was a lone nut?  Why go to the Texas Theater and keep changing seats like he was looking for somebody?

Did he expect a ride, and funds?  Was he led into a trap?  To become a Patsy?

I really don't think Lee Oswald thought---deep down---that he would actually have a chance to use his Mannlicher-Carcano on the President that day. Yes, he took his rifle to work with the hope in his mind of somehow being able to secrete himself somewhere within the Depository at the precise moment when Kennedy drove past the building. But he probably also realized as he was driving to work that morning with Buell Frazier that the odds of being able to successfully conceal himself from the view of everyone else in the building (i.e., being able to have an entire warehouse floor of the TSBD all to himself at just exactly the appropriate minutes before, during, and just after the President drove by the building) were very small odds indeed.

But, as Oswald's incredible luck would have it (and even though he picked a floor--the sixth--that had MORE than the usual number of employees working on it throughout the entire morning that day, due to the floor-laying project that was occurring on that floor), Lee had the good fortune of having the entire sixth floor all to himself at precisely the time he desperately needed to have it all to himself---between 12:20 and 12:31 PM.

It's always been my opinion that if Bonnie Ray Williams had decided to stay on the sixth floor, instead of moving down to the 5th floor at about 12:20, then JFK would not have been shot at all....because (IMO) Oswald wouldn't risk firing at the President if he knew for certain that somebody else was on that same sixth floor just a few feet away.

And if somehow he was able to pull off the shooting in total secrecy (which he was), I doubt if Lee thought he would live very long beyond 12:30. Hence, I don't think he cared too much about having a lot of money on him when he departed Ruth Paine's house on November 22.*

* Yes, I know that that last part about Lee thinking he wouldn't be long for this world if he shot the President is likely to be considered inconsistent with the portion of my theory which has Oswald not taking the risk of shooting if Bonnie Ray remained on the sixth floor. CTers can fire back with:

But, David, if he didn't think he'd get away alive, then why would he care if anyone else was up there with him to finger him for the crime?

Fair point (if someone wants to make it). But I think it's quite clear that Oswald did have a desire to continue living beyond 11/22/63. That fact is very clear to me when looking at Oswald's actions after 12:30 PM on November 22 --- e.g., fleeing the building within minutes of the assassination, taking a cab to get back to his roominghouse (a very out-of-the-ordinary mode of transportation for Oswald), arming himself with a pistol and at least 15 rounds of ammunition within 30 minutes of JFK being shot, and then committing a second murder a few minutes later when he encountered Officer Tippit.

Having a desire to survive the aftermath of the assassination, vs. thinking he will survive, are two different things entirely. I would guess that Lee Harvey Oswald was probably very surprised that he was afforded the ideal opportunity to shoot at President Kennedy from a totally vacant sixth floor of his workplace and still live to see another sunrise.

IMHO.

YMMV.

Edited May 7, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Bill Simpich]

In response to Ron's comment:  "I've never read of video of Hill leaving the TSBD in car 207."...

No, I was referring to HIll arriving at the TSBD with Valentine and police reporter JIm Ewell at 12:51. 

(Incidentally, Hill was also a police reporter "...with WBAP as a member of their Dallas Bureau, ...working out of an office in the police station here in Dallas,"

Oswald's landlady said two cops were in car #207 at 1 pm - probably not Hill, maybe Valentine, maybe not, could have been anybody.   My bet is that is how Oswald got to the theater.  What better way to meet his connection, whatever it was?  

Theatre manager Butch Burroughs said that he sold him popcorn at 1:15 pm - testimony the Warren Commission was careful not to elicit.   (Burroughs interview with Jim Marrs, recounted in Marrs' Crossfire, p. 353).   

If you believe Johnny Brewer, and I do, someone looking a lot like Oswald entered the theater around 1:35 without paying, in a provocative move designed to bring the police running.  After Oswald was arrested and walked out the front door, another man looking a lot like Oswald was ushered out from the balcony.   For 20 years, the store proprietor who saw the man leaving the balcony with a police escort was convinced that he had seen the real Oswald.

 

 

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

"The word facetious describes something you don't take seriously."

www.vocabulary.com

 

Steve Thomas

[James DiEugenio]

Did the wallet taken from Oswald in the car by Bentley, did that have a Hidell card in it?

I mean did it really?

[Bill Simpich]

Jim, the best way to address this question is in three parts -

The first part is whether you think the wallet in evidence that was supposedly found by Bentley is the same one we see in Westbrook's hand at the Tippit murder scene.

There are good arguments that they are the same and that they are different - photo evidence is shaky, as usual - one thing that can't be denied is that they are similar. 

I don't think it matters either way - the similarity illustrates that we are looking at an operation, a plan - especially with Oswald's wallet at Tippit's murder scene, and never reported by Westbrook or any police reports as found on the scene!

The second part is whether you think that Oswald made the Hidell card - there is evidence in the record that it was created at JCS, where Oswald worked with various machines that had various printing and photographic capabilities - I think he did as an experiment - as a calling card - to show what he could do.  He self-identified as a "photographer".  It's not very good - you can see partially erased typing all over it - I think it was an experimental calling card that he kept in his possessions.   He certainly didn't use it to buy beer.  Somebody knew about it before 11/22, and figured out a way to get possession of it.

The third part is that Oswald didn't leave his wallet at the Tippit shooting scene - just like he didn't empty the revolver and scatter the hulls on the ground like the Tippit shooter did in the moments after Tippit was murdered.  Both of those events were done to frame Oswald.  Oswald was going to the theatre to meet his connection to find out what he should do next in the wake of the President's shooting.  He was vulnerable - he knew he was the only Soviet defector to be in the vicinity of the President's shooting.  I can't imagine Oswald - or anyone else - would bring a fake ID with him in his wallet on his way to the theater.  That ID was to link him to the paper trail of the alleged assassination rifle - ordered in the name of Hidell - and would have millions of people convinced that the Dallas police had got their man.  

The Hidell ID was reported by Westbrook to Barrett to be inside the wallet that was found at the Tippit murder scene.  Barrett is still alive and discusses seeing it - you can see his video on YouTube. and the similarity between the Tippit murder wallet and the wallet in evidence.   

Paul Bentley is the officer that supposedly found Oswald's wallet in his pocket and found the Hidell card in the wallet as Jerry Hill drove a full team of five arresting officers to the station.   Bentley said to author Larry Sneed that the names went over the radio...no record of that.   Officer Walker also claimed he removed wallet from Oswald's pants pocket in interrogation room.   No Dallas reports by Bentley or any of the five arresting officers mention this Hidell card.  Bentley's story is not credible, on any level.  Can you believe that Bentley was Dallas'  chief polygraph examiner?

[David Von Pein]

So, the Dallas cops supposedly find Oswald's wallet at the scene of Tippit's murder, and then those same cops decide not to say a single word about finding that wallet --- even though such a piece of evidence is virtual proof that Oswald was at the Tippit murder scene. And, remember, according to many CTers, Oswald is the same guy these same cops were supposedly FRAMING for Tippit's murder all along.

Is that about the size of this insane situation?

That's about the most ridiculous reasoning I've ever heard.

The virtual proof that the wallet was definitely NOT Lee Oswald's is the fact that no police officer said a word about it right after Tippit's murder.

So how can anybody -- even a conspiracy believer -- possibly believe this wallet belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald?....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/wallets-part-1.html

Edited May 7, 2018 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

This is what I believe on this matter.  And I implied it in the article.

I do not think that the two wallets are the same.  And I think someone from the DPD, maybe Croy, brought the wallet to the Tippit scene.  To me that seems to fit the evidence the best. Because as both Simpich and Armstrong have written, no one saw a wallet on the street pavement.  And unlike the unreliable Bugliosi BS, it was not TIppit's wallet.  To me, those factors would seem to indicate that it was not on the ground.

Also, I do not believe that anyone carries three wallets.  

So Bill, I guess what you are saying is that there really is no proof that the Hidell card was in the wallet that Bentley took from Oswald.  

If that is the case, then it suggests that the  one at the Tippit scene did not totally disappear.

Is that what you think?

[Thomas Graves]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

So, the Dallas cops supposedly find Oswald's wallet at the scene of Tippit's murder, and then those same cops decide not to say a single word about finding that wallet --- even though such a piece of evidence is virtual proof that Oswald was at the Tippit murder scene. And, remember, according to many CTers, Oswald is the same guy these same cops were supposedly FRAMING for Tippit's murder all along.

Is that about the size of this insane situation?

That's about the most ridiculous reasoning I've ever heard.

The virtual proof that the wallet was definitely NOT Lee Oswald's is the fact that no police officer said a word about it right after Tippit's murder.

So how can anybody -- even a conspiracy believer -- possibly believe this wallet belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald?....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/wallets-part-1.html

 

David,

 

Don't you realize it doesn't really matter because James "Sacrosanct" DiEugenio and his ilk obviously, obviously, obviously proved a long, long time ago that the evil, evil, evil, evil, evil, evil, evil CIA, through the auspices of that evil, evil Dallas mayor Earle Cabell (brother of that evil, evil, evil, evil, evil former Deputy Director of the CIA, Charles P. Cabell) and, of course, the evil, evil Mafia, controlled the evil, evil, evil, evil Dallas Police Department and the evil evil , etc, etc, etc,  ... and killed our beloved president John Fitzgerald Kennedy, no matter what the evidence does or does not say?

(sarcasm)

 

--  T.G.

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[James DiEugenio]

As Bill Simpich warned, do not let anyone derail a very good thread.  

So I will repeat my observation and my question to Bill:

This is what I believe on this matter.  And I implied it in the article.

I do not think that the two wallets are the same.  And I think someone from the DPD, maybe Croy, brought the wallet to the Tippit scene.  To me that seems to fit the evidence the best. Because as both Simpich and Armstrong have written, no one saw a wallet on the street pavement.  And unlike the unreliable Bugliosi BS, it was not TIppit's wallet.  To me, those factors would seem to indicate that it was not on the ground.

Also, I do not believe that anyone carries three wallets.  

So Bill, I guess what you are saying is that there really is no proof that the Hidell card was in the wallet that Bentley took from Oswald.  

If that is the case, then it suggests that the  one at the Tippit scene did not totally disappear.

Is that what you think?

[Thomas Graves]

4 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

As Bill Simpich warned, do not let anyone derail a very good thread.  

So I will repeat my observation and my question to Bill:

This is what I believe on this matter.  And I implied it in the article.

I do not think that the two wallets are the same.  And I think someone from the DPD, maybe Croy, brought the wallet to the Tippit scene.  To me that seems to fit the evidence the best. Because as both Simpich and Armstrong have written, no one saw a wallet on the street pavement.  And unlike the unreliable Bugliosi BS, it was not TIppit's wallet.  To me, those factors would seem to indicate that it was not on the ground.

Also, I do not believe that anyone carries three wallets.  

So Bill, I guess what you are saying is that there really is no proof that the Hidell card was in the wallet that Bentley took from Oswald.  

If that is the case, then it suggests that the  one at the Tippit scene did not totally disappear.

Is that what you think?

Isn't "bumping" a post within 24 hours verboten, James?

I mean, I mean, I mean, ..  isn't that what you've effectively done?

--  "TG" 

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Thomas Graves