Greg Wagner Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I think it’s pretty hard to argue that Kennedy’s protection in Dallas was not compromised. In my opinion, the striking differences between Tampa on the 18th and Dallas on the 22nd are simply not explainable in any other way that makes sense. We can go back and forth all day about the absurd route down Elm Street, the motorcycles being reduced, agents on and off the car, the bubbletop, Rybka, rooftops, windows, overpasses, brake lights, Thomas Shipman, partying the night before, the dearth of local law enforcement and MI personnel supplementing the Secret Service, the complete and total lack of security at the exact point in the route where Kennedy is most exposed and all the rest. Probably not all of these glaring deficiencies are nefarious, but if anyone thinks they were ALL just a bunch of crazy coincidences, then we will have to agree to disagree. In my view, Vince and others have moved the ball far enough down the field that we are beyond endlessly debating all this. The real questions we should be asking about the Secret Service at this point are: 1. Were any members of the Secret Service witting participants in the assassination? If so, who? Boring, Roberts and Lawson are intriguing candidates, but who would have approached them? That would have been awfully dangerous. And why would they go along with it? 2. If there was no witting participation by members of the Secret Service and Kennedy's security was compromised by a more subtle and sophisticated effort, then who was handled by whom? Where was the connection between the plotters and the Dallas trip planners / Secret Service? This would have been at a high level, with orders rolling down hill from there. My opinion is that the perpetrators had one goal in Dallas and that was to kill Kennedy. Everything else was on the “not essential but nice to have” list. Getting the motorcade to come down Elm Street, chipping away at JFK’s protection any way they could think of and even executing the Oswald patsy angle were certainly elements of the operation. But none of them were show stoppers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Walton Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Here are two of my favorite photos of the motorcade: It sure seems the cyclists are doing their job here and Greer has his door open to push the crowd back. But what about the folks on the bus? I think all of this discussion about, "Oh, the SS backed off opening the way to the murder" is pure speculation. As Kennedy himself said - it'd be easy to get him from a tall building with a rifle. What no one seems to want to say here is that times were very, very different back then. Unlike today, with nuts running around shooting into crowds and running people over, it was a more innocent time then. You didn't "need" limos that weighed 20,000 pounds, choppers flying around, 10,000 guards pushing all manner of crowds 200 feet away and other extreme measures circa 2018. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Wagner Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 (edited) Hi Michael. I agree that presidential security in 1963 compared to today is apples and oranges. The striking differences between Kennedy's protection in Dallas and that three days earlier in Tampa, however, are easily provable. I don't want to regurgitate all the points Vince has laid out here, on his website, on YouTube and in his published works about this, but I don't see what is speculative about it. It is day and night. Though I totally disagree with much of the Hartmann/Waldron book, even they got that part right. Edited June 1, 2018 by Greg Wagner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 59 minutes ago, John Butler said: I don't know whether this is helpful but, it is about military intelligence photographers in Dealey Plaza. I somewhere read something about there might have been 50. But, I don't have a source and it might be a faulty memory although I don't think so. https://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2012/10/steve-osborn-testimony-re-fort-hood.html You know, this is really interesting. Not just in and of itself. But because as I said, there was reportedly a military camera crew in Memphis when King was killed. But also, when I was researching the RFK case, a guy told me that he knew another researcher on that case who discovered that there was a camera monitor in a hotel room tracking Bobby Kennedy's movement through the hotel, sort of like what they have In Vegas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trygve V. Jensen Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 13 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Which reminds me: Has anyone ever gotten to the bottom of that army intel photographer being there that day? This cannot not have been posted before, - and must be well known by now. ( Walt Brown's remarks about this ) I (re)post it anyway. ( Don't know what the consensus on his opinions is. ( What has by now been refuted etc. ) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 11 hours ago, Ron Ecker said: Jim and Vince, How much of that "alcohol binge the night before" was real and how much was it an exaggerated excuse for the lack of reaction? I recall reading somewhere that there wasn't really that much drinking (though that may have been CYA by the agents). Hi, Ron! See chapter 7 of my first book. It was not exaggerated in the least. If anything, the 9 agents who confessed to drinking decided to pull a "limited hangout". Not only do we have Jimmy Hill's famous remarks ("they were bombed"), we also (from my book) have a couple news reporters WHO WERE THERE that back this up. The agents went to both the Fort Worth Press Club and the Cellar. The press club is where the admitted drinking took place, while the Cellar is where non-alcoholic "set ups" were served for those who chose to BYOB (or hard liquor). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 6/26/62: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 11/16/63-next image:next image-Hawaii June 1963: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 This one reminds me of Liebeler's "your films were very helpful to the commission" LOL- I THINK THAT 'S ALL, OFFICER: JFK himself said " We are headed to nut country now". Rabid, right wing territory; Wanted For Treason posters; "Welcome Mr. Kennedy to Dallas" ad; warnings not to go to Dallas from several people...he should have received this protection: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 (but awful "protection" for Dallas:) BUILDING ROOFTOPS WERE REGULARLY GUARDED SINCE THE FDR DAYS!! This was also a Summer 1963 syndicated news story: Chief Inspector Michael Torina, WHO WROTE THE SECRET SERVICE MANUAL, and Chief James Rowley (pictured) contributed to this 1962 book (I SPOKE TO TORINA AND HE CONFIRMED THE VERACITY OF WHAT IS WRITTEN): TAMPA, FL 11/18/63. Motorcycle officer Russell Groover confirmed to me that all multi-story buildings on the 28-MILE LONG MOTORCADE, the LONGEST DOMESTIC MOTORCADE JFK EVER UNDERTOOK (second only to the foreign trip to Berlin), were guarded by heavily armed officers. This Secret Service survey report was written by Frank Yeager and GERALD BLAINE OF KENNEDY DETAIL infamy! Author Larry Sabato, based on my tip (he acknowledges me in his book), contacted Blaine and called him out on this. Baine lamely stated that they didn’t have the manpower in Dallas—-a far shorter motorcade—to do what they did four days earlier in Tampa: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 Gee, I wonder why the Warren Commission didn't call former Chief U.E. Baughman... This came out in early December 1963. In response to this came the infamous Rowley/ Dillon CD3 memo falsely saying buildings were only inspected and guarded during Inaugurals (just the above images alone show that this is total bunk): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 10 hours ago, Greg Wagner said: Hi Jim. You mean James Powell? I doubt he knew what was about to happen. Somebody did, though. The interesting question is who put him in Dealey Plaza with a camera that day. Does anyone have a photo of James Powell? https://goo.gl/6e23Fd Along those lines and even more interesting is Stuart Reed. The guy worked as an executive for the Canal Zone Civilian Personnel Policy Coordinating Board in Panama. He ends up in Dallas on 11/22/63, takes photos in and around Dealey Plaza, including McWatters' bus around the time Oswald would have been on it, AND THEN happens to be at the Texas Theatre to photograph Oswald being arrested. He drops off his film to be developed in Dallas and on 11/26 he signs an authorization allowing the FBI to pick up his developed photos as he leaves for New Orleans to catch a boat back to Panama. Seems legit. <sarcasm.jpg> I think it's reasonable to consider that Reed may have been handled by the same person who put James Powell in Dealey Plaza. Any connections Reed may have had to Army Intelligence would be of great interest. https://goo.gl/NLk641 By the way, Winston Lawson was Army CIC from 1953-55. At least, those are the years his Army Intel service is documented. Lawson was at Fort Holabird at the same time Richard Case Nagell was there. Probably a coincidence, that whole thing. But Army Intelligence seems to pop up everywhere. Back to the topic at hand. The security in Tampa vs the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza only 3 days later is, in my opinion, the strongest evidence for an inside man or men around the Dallas trip/motorcade. Consider the Tampa trip security that Vince has documented. Now look at the windows, overpasses and rooftops throughout the Craven film in Dallas https://goo.gl/XnmgXL, along with the many other films and photos documenting such. There are people crawling all over the place and it was a much shorter drive in what was expected to be a potentially hostile environment. Had local law enforcement and MI units been fully utilized as on other trips, manpower would not have been an issue. Not to mention the route selection, Lawson managing the motorcycles at Love field and the Rybka incident. It really starts to add up, doesn't it? In my opinion, the professionals involved in the Dallas op were going to kill Kennedy with or without compromised protection. Contingencies were in place to get him in Dallas regardless of how the security ultimately unfolded. My guess is - and this is total speculation - there was a link somewhere high up the food chain between someone like Morales or Phillips and someone with enough juice to pull the right levers around the Texas trip planning. It could have been sold to them as Kennedy wanting to be more visible in Dallas to afford favorable photo opportunities or whatever. I'm not so sure about witting participation by members of the Secret Service, though. Opening the kimono and stating, "Hey, we are planning to kill JFK in Dallas and we want your help" would have been a significant risk. Jim and Vince, thanks for your many valuable, thought-provoking posts. Always a treat My pleasure! It is bad enough that JFK was assassinated, then subjected to character assassination...what I truly despise are those who further assassinate him by attempting to blame him for his own death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 11/21/63: view from motion picture taken from police helicopter! DALLAS TIMES HERALD 11/22/63 BEFORE the assassination happened. 11/21/63- note all the motorcycles! Along with multi-story buildings being guarded along the LONGEST DOMESTIC MOTORCADE JFK EVER UNDERTOOK (Tampa, 11/18/63), many motorcycles surrounding the limo, the press in front of the procession, Stoughton near the limo, ASAIC Boring on the trip, the military aide riding in front of the limo, agents on the rear of the limo, etc., the military police lined the streets and faced the crowds during ONE STORY STRUCTURE PARTS OF THE MOTORCADE (as also confirmed by Tampa motorcycle officer Russell Groover...he was there, DVP, and he "would know better"): ABOVE: Agents Kellerman and Bob Lilley on the rear of the fast-moving car in San Juan, Puerto Rico. The top was on and a military aide rode in the front; great motorcycle formation. LILLEY TOLD ME THAT THEY REACHED SPEEDS OF OVER 50 MPH AS THEY RODE ON THE REAR OF THE LIMO...and no rain while using the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Palamara Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 6/6/63 SAN DIEGO, CA (Sorry, DVP)- THIS is how the Secret Service "got around" a) manpower issues, b) not looking like a police state, c) not always having agents on the rear of the limo...they had multi-story buildings guarded and police/military lining the streets and facing the crowd AND QUITE A FEW PLAINSCLOTHES DETECTIVES IN THE CROWDS THEMSELVES (NOTE THE TWO FLATBED TRUCKS- THEY WERE FILMING LIVE FOR TV): Many Secret Service agents and White House aides told me/ wrote to me that President Kennedy did not interfere with the actions of the Secret Service and, especially, did not ask or order the agents off the limo. This is amazing- the lead advance agent for Dallas, Win Lawson (Clint Hill's brother-in-law, David Grant, fresh from the Florida trip, was his assistant) admits that there were no standing order for the agents to stay off the limo and "it never came to my attention as such"---!! SAM KINNEY (DRIVER OF THE FOLLOW-UP CAR IN TEXAS, FLORIDA, ETC. ETC. ETC.), SAIC BEHN, ASAIC BORING, AND OTHERS TEAR BLAINE A NEW ONE AND DEBUNK THE "JFK ORDERED US OFF THE LIMO" GARBAGE: OOPS-----with Blaine by his side (!), Hill comes clean in 2010: This sums it all up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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