“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

You appear to be the one derailing this thread with your idiotic assessments.

I can't wait to hear your explanation as to why I posted the following in FLV format.

Anyone else care to enlighten the genius?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15aufNDEaX6Mb83xIEKcaThcxa1eeNtEw/view?usp=sharing

 

Not interested.  A fraud is still a fraud any which way you show it.

Let me remind you.

"No member is allowed to use foul language and/or disgusting expressions.

Members would be ill advised to argue as to what defines foul language or disgusting expressions. Every member understands what is and what is not acceptable.

Solicitation of goods and/or services is not permitted. This is a Forum for discussion.

No member is allowed to make personal insults with regard to another member OR with respect to fellow members opinions.

 

No member is allowed to accuse a fellow member of lying

 

Members are responsible for what they post on this board. A member

will not use this board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or

defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane,

sexually oriented, threatening"

Edited April 18, 2019 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

On 4/18/2019 at 7:39 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

This encounter can also be explained if there was someone who looked like “Lee Harvey Oswald” appearing in the 6th floor window(s), wearing a white shirt, and soon trying to escape the building.  Note the white shirt in the closeup capture from Dillard’s film.

If the white-shirted Oswald’s job was to set up the patsy (the Oswald in the red or brown shirt), when the white shirted Oswald was done parading around on the 6th floor, he had to make an escape, which is the subject of this thread.  John A. thinks the white-shirted Oswald was probably starting to walk down the rear staircase from the second to the first floor when he heard someone coming up and decided to open the door immediately to his right and entered the TSBD office where he was seen by Mrs. Reid.

Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald 
on the second floor?
Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him.
Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. REID. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building?
Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind
of wash trousers. What color I couldn’t tell you.

Soon after, this white-shirted Oswald was seen by a number of witnesses entering the Nash Rambler.  He went on to his final act of setting up the patsy: killing Officer Tippit and then moving off in the direction of the Texas Theater, where the brown-shirted Oswald was already looking for his contact.  Remember those DPD radio dispatches of the Tippit killer in a WHITE SHIRT!

We have a description on this suspect over here on Jefferson. Last seen about 300 block of East Jefferson. He's a white male, about thirty, five eight, (siren) black hair, slender, wearing white jacket, a white shirt and dark slacks. (Sirens)

If this analysis is correct, it of course means that Mrs. Reid mistook the white-shirted Oswald for the brown-shirted Oswald.  It also means that Roy Truly vouched for the white-shirted Oswald.  Isn’t it amazing that unarmed Roy Truly apparently led the way in front of gun-toting Baker in search of an assassin who might certainly be heavily armed.  What bravery!
 

I've long suspected that the encounter with the man that eventually morphed into the phony "2nd floor lunchroom" story was not with our "Oswald" at all, but with one of the suspects from the sixth floor. This is not to suggest that the Truly/Baker/Suspect encounter actually happened in the 2nd floor lunchroom, but that there really was some kind of encounter near the stairs, probably around the third or fourth floor. 

Roy Truly is so suspicious here - either he vouched for someone he knew to be a suspect, or he deliberately set the Dallas police chasing "Oswald" at a time when he had no legitimate reason to do so. There is no other possibility. Roy Truly was a witting conspirator to frame "Oswald".  Did he also "persuade" Mrs. Reid (his personal secretary) to prop up his identification of "Oswald" with her story of seeing "Oswald" wander through the second floor?

Seems very possible to me.

As for the Lovelady shirt mess, Harold Weisberg was screaming at the top of his lungs more than fifty years ago about the shirt in the Altgens picture and the shirt the FBI photographed Lovelady wearing in March of 1964. Of course it isn't the same shirt! But the FBI went even further: they asked Lovelady in 1964 to unbutton the top several buttons of his short-sleeved, wide-striped red and white shirt, so that it would approximate the neckline of the long-sleeved, patterned shirt from Altgens when they took the comparison photos! Way to "investigate" the murder of the president, FBI! Way to further obfuscate the issue!

Personally, I suspect the figure in Altgens really is Lovelady, wearing the plaid shirt later photographed in 1976. Lovelady told the HSCA that the FBI had not asked him in 1964 to be sure to wear the same shirt from 11/22/63, so he was not wearing it. That's probably true, in my opinion.

Weisberg suspected that Altgens man was "Oswald" (he told me so in 1993) and therefore the FBI was desperate to hide proof of "Oswald's" innocence. However, I suspect that "Oswald" was Prayerman (not visible in Altgens), but the FBI was mortified that there might be some  inadvertent photo disclosure, and therefore muddied the waters with the Lovelady/Altgens/shirt/doorway man issue. 

That's where I am with this.

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Personally, I suspect the figure in Altgens really is Lovelady, wearing the plaid shirt later photographed in 1976. Lovelady told the HSCA that the FBI had not asked him in 1964 to be sure to wear the same shirt from 11/22/63, so he was not wearing it. That's probably true, in my opinion.

Weisberg suspected that Altgens man was "Oswald" (he told me so in 1993) and therefore the FBI was desperate to hide proof of "Oswald's" innocence. However, I suspect that "Oswald" was Prayerman (not visible in Altgens), but the FBI was mortified that there might be some  inadvertent photo disclosure, and therefore muddied the waters with the Lovelady/Altgens/shirt/doorway man issue. 

That's where I am with this.

Paul:

I agree with your take on Lovelady or Prayer Man being Lee Oswald. I am in the process of reconstructing Altgens6 using 3D modelling, and from what I saw so far there are no doubts in my mind that Lovelady was the man whom many consider being Lee Oswald. By the way, Lovelady stood on the second step, not on the top landing (first step) as he claimed during his testimony for the Warren Commission. An honest error in my view.

Please find here a taster of my analysis. In (A), Lovelady is seen standing on the top landing - that would make him much taller than Bill Shelley who stood behind him and to his left. (B) is correct. C and D are overlays of Altgens6 and the 3D model.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Ray Mitcham]

I agree with Paul and Andrej, in Altgens6, Lovelady leaning with his left shoulder lower than his right, probably holding on to the centre rail to get a better view as the limo went down Elm Street, note that the position of the collars on his shirt (the dark red parts of the shirt in the above photo) seem to confirm this as they are at an approx 45˚ angle to each other.

In my mind there is no doubt that it is Lovelady.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Ray Mitcham

[Tony Krome]

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

 

Please find here a taster of my analysis. In (A), Lovelady is seen standing on the top landing - that would make him much taller than Bill Shelley who stood behind him and to his left. (B) is correct. C and D are overlays of Altgens6 and the 3D model.

 

 

Are you leaving out the coloured guy's (Carl Jones?) waving arm for a better view of Lovelady?

[Jim Hargrove]

Please everyone, don't hijack this thread into another endless Prayer Man controversy!  This thing is long enough, and I know from past experience that you guys never stop arguing about Prayer Man.  If someone ever produces real proof, I'll be real interested, but I've yet to see anything approaching it.  Please... start your own thread.

[Jim Hargrove]

5 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

I've long suspected that the encounter with the man that eventually morphed into the phony "2nd floor lunchroom" story was not with our "Oswald" at all, but with one of the suspects from the sixth floor. This is not to suggest that the Truly/Baker/Suspect encounter actually happened in the 2nd floor lunchroom, but that there really was some kind of encounter near the stairs, probably around the third or fourth floor. 

I also think Baker and Truly confronted a fellow from the six floor, but it couldn’t have happened on the fourth floor because that would have been right in front of Dorothy Garner, who surely would have remembered such a dramatic encounter.  Garner watched Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles run down the stairs to the first floor and then she saw Baker and Truly as they ran past her on the 4th floor and continued running up the stairway.  I kind of doubt the encounter took place on the floor right below her, either, but I suppose that is possible. 

I think Baker encountered Classic Oswald® by the second floor lunch room, wearing a brown shirt (some people say it was dark red, but it certainly wasn’t white). He did not have a Coke in his hand.
 

5 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

I've long suspected that the encounter with the man that eventually morphed into the phony "2nd floor lunchroom" story was not with our "Oswald" at all, but with one of the suspects from the sixth floor. This is not to suggest that the Truly/Baker/Suspect encounter actually happened in the 2nd floor lunchroom, but that there really was some kind of encounter near the stairs, probably around the third or fourth floor. 

 Roy Truly is so suspicious here - either he vouched for someone he knew to be a suspect, or he deliberately set the Dallas police chasing "Oswald" at a time when he had no legitimate reason to do so. There is no other possibility. Roy Truly was a witting conspirator to frame "Oswald".  Did he also "persuade" Mrs. Reid (his personal secretary) to prop up his identification of "Oswald" with her story of seeing "Oswald" wander through the second floor?

 Seems very possible to me.

Truly surely is a major suspect here, but I think Mrs. Reid was nothing but a problem for the Warren Commission.  A BIG, BIG part of this whole setup was to get a fellow who looked like Classic Oswald® do all sorts of incriminating things, from all those visits to the Sports Drome rifle range and other places around Dallas.  Why stop on the day of the assassination?  Why not put this fellow who looked like LHO on the TSBD sixth floor and parade him around with a gun?  When the shooting was over, he had to get out of Dodge being seen by the fewest witnesses possible.

I think he wore a white shirt on the sixth floor because Classic Oswald probably worked that way often during the day, taking off his overshirt and working in a white t-shirt.  But Mrs. Reid presented a serious problem for the Warren Commission.  Not only did she see him with a Coke, but she also saw him in a white shirt, without anything over it.

During her testimony, look how hard Belin tried to make Mrs. Reid get LHO back into the lunch room to retrieve the brown (or dark red) shirt and a jacket!  But she wouldn’t put him there!   

If the conspirators were setting up Classic Oswald for six weeks prior to the assassination by impersonating him in compromising positions,  why stop on the Big Day?  At least some of the witnesses at 10th & Patton thought Tippit’s killer looked like Oswald, including some of the witnesses closest to the hit.  Are we to believe that was a coincidence?   Funny about all those reports of two Oswalds arrested in the Texas Theater.  Just another coincidence?

Edited April 19, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Tony Krome]

11 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I think Baker encountered Classic Oswald® by the second floor lunch room, wearing a brown shirt (some people say it was dark red, but it certainly wasn’t white). He did not have a Coke in his hand.
 

I think he wore a white shirt on the sixth floor because Classic Oswald probably worked that way often during the day, taking off his overshirt and working in a white t-shirt.  But Mrs. Reid presented a serious problem for the Warren Commission.  Not only did she see him with a Coke, but she also saw him in a white shirt, without anything over it.

How was white shirt Oswald tracking brown shirt Oswald so as to avoid bumping into him?

[Jim Hargrove]

Good question.  I think white shirted Oswald was supposed to be seen on the sixth floor, and then was supposed to get out of the building and out of Dealey Plaza seen by no one, or as few people as possible.  John A. thinks he got off the front passenger elevator on the second floor, headed toward the back staircase where he meant to go down, but got spooked when he heard Truly and Baker coming up (or, less likely, Adams and Styles going down) and turned to the door immediately to his right and walked into the office to be seen by Mrs. Reid.

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

How was white shirt Oswald tracking brown shirt Oswald so as to avoid bumping into him?

Good question, Tony. I suspect that the impostor in the white tee shirt up on the sixth floor slipped into the building and up to the sixth floor shortly before he was first noticed by Arnold Rowland and others, several minutes after 12:00 pm. At that time, our "Oswald" was probably sitting in the first floor room, eating his lunch after getting a Coke from the 2nd floor lunchroom machine. (That's what he told Captain Fritz.) 

The one time during the work day when our "Oswald" could be reliably in one place was during lunch. The sixth floor was clear for the sixth floor team, including the impersonator. 

After the shots, one of the members of the sixth floor team was intercepted by Baker/Truly (somewhere) and Truly vouched for that person. Whether that suspect actually resembled "Oswald" much, well, there isn't any evidence of it from 11/22/63. The John A./Jim H. theory about the impostor encounter on the 2nd floor is possible, but it requires that the suspect use the passenger elevator only to elude detection from the 6th to the 2nd floors. Then, says this theory, the suspect would dash through the second floor offices to make his way to the back stairs, only to stop short, turn around and flee, only to be accosted by Baker/Truly. After which, says the theory, the suspect would then flee through the second floor offices (again) to be seen and mistakenly identified by an unwitting Mrs. Reid. Moments later, this suspect would then descend the front stairs to the first floor, and walk out the TSBD, thus obviating the entire reason to get off the passenger elevator on the second floor in the first place.

This is theoretically possible.

But, at this moment, I don't think that is very likely.

A far simpler solution has one suspect descend on the passenger elevator all the way to the first floor, exit the elevator (right in front of Herbert Sawyer, just as he testified) and walk out the front door. 

The other suspect went down the back stairs to the level of the third or fourth floor and was briefly accosted by Baker/Truly, before being turned loose to go down to the exits by the back loading dock. (The only obstacle to this is the assumption that because we have no summary statement from Dorothy Garner about seeing any such suspect, that therefore no such suspect could have descended this way. To which I will point out to anyone thinking along those lines the minor fact that we have no direct statement from Dorothy Garner herself at all, so we have no idea what else she might have seen or not seen! We have only a one-line summary from Martha Jo Stroud, confined solely to the timing of Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles. Nothing more!) 

Don't assume that Stroud's summary of Garner's observation about the timing - and only the timing - precludes any stairway-descending suspect from the sixth floor!

It does not!

Edited April 20, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I also think Baker and Truly confronted a fellow from the six floor, but it couldn’t have happened on the fourth floor because that would have been right in front of Dorothy Garner, who surely would have remembered such a dramatic encounter.  Garner watched Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles run down the stairs to the first floor and then she saw Baker and Truly as they ran past her on the 4th floor and continued running up the stairway. 

If the conspirators were setting up Classic Oswald for six weeks prior to the assassination by impersonating him in compromising positions,  why stop on the Big Day?  At least some of the witnesses at 10th & Patton thought Tippit’s killer looked like Oswald, including some of the witnesses closest to the hit.  Are we to believe that was a coincidence?   Funny about all those reports of two Oswalds arrested in the Texas Theater.  Just another coincidence?

Jim, see my other post today about what we can and can't say what Dorothy Garner saw and told Martha Jo Stroud.

As for the second part above, I completely agree that an "Oswald" impersonator shot J.D. Tippit. While that suspect may not have been a dead ringer for our "Oswald", he did resemble him enough to confuse strangers who might have seen him.

For readers who may be unaware to what Jim is referring about the two arrests in the Texas Theater, there are not one, but two different official Dallas Police reports extant in which the arrest of "Oswald" took place in the balcony, not the first floor. 

We know that our "Oswald" was arrested on the first floor.

So who was this "LHO" arrested in the balcony?

The same guy who shot Tippit, that's who!

 

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

We know that our "Oswald" was arrested on the first floor.

So who was this "LHO" arrested in the balcony?

According to Brewer, the balcony was empty;

1964

Mr. BREWER - We went back up front and went in the balcony and looked around but we couldn't see anything. 

1996

Brewer - Using the screen as a backlight we could see there were no heads up there

Griggs- So the balcony was totally empty?

Brewer- Yeah

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

According to Brewer, the balcony was empty;

1964

Mr. BREWER - We went back up front and went in the balcony and looked around but we couldn't see anything. 

1996

Brewer - Using the screen as a backlight we could see there were no heads up there

Griggs- So the balcony was totally empty?

Brewer- Yeah

According to Dallas Police Detective Don Stringfellow of the Criminal Intelligence Section, in his memo to Captain W.P. Gannaway of the Special Services Bureau dated November 23, 1963, "Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater."

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth191000/m1/1/

 

According to the Dallas Police Homicide Report on J.D. Tippit, "Suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater"

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth191000/

 

[Tony Krome]

Correct ... you have a clear cut choice, Brewer or Stringfellow

[Jim Hargrove]

11 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

According to Brewer, the balcony was empty;

1964

Mr. BREWER - We went back up front and went in the balcony and looked around but we couldn't see anything. 

1996

Brewer - Using the screen as a backlight we could see there were no heads up there

Griggs- So the balcony was totally empty?

Brewer- Yeah

Tony,

The white-shirted Oswald may have been starting to walk down the stairs from the balcony when a number of Dallas cops encountered him, which doesn't, however, mean I think Brewer was honest.  From John's write-up on November 22, 1963:

The police dispatcher reported that the suspect was wearing "dark trousers and a white t-shirt" and "Have information a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson ... supposed to be hiding in balcony." Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson entered the front of the theater, hurried up the stairs to the balcony, and was "reasonably satisfied in his own mind" that he met Lee Harvey Oswald com­ing down the front stairs. If this young man was LEE Oswald, then he was wearing a white t-shirt and dark trousers. Lt. Cunningham and Detective J.B. Toney encountered the young man and began to question him, perhaps because he matched the description of the suspect. As Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers rushed up the stairs to the balcony, he saw the officers as they were questioning the young man.

Don't forget how the Texas Theater was laid out, with the stairs to the balcony near the entrance of the building.