“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

I'd like to have considerably stronger evidence than that before using the word "proof." Also, I prefer that the evidence make a lot of sense. While creation of a sort of scrapbook of the movements of a patsy is a possible endeavor, it seems quite unnecessary to me and so it doesn't make as much sense as I'd like for my primary evidence. To me this is more along the lines of supporting evidence.

It would be helpful to know if the four photos we have are the only four on the roll of film, or at least were taken in succession. If Reed took numerous photos and the four we have were selected from them (as in "cherry picked"), that would lessen the impact. (I'm not accusing anybody here of cherry picking... it could have been that the FBI who cherry picked those four photos.)

It would also be helpful to know if Reed had intelligence ties.

Sandy,

On the Southeastern Louisiana University website there is an online listing of their historical “Archival Collections” which includes the following:

KENNEDY, JOHN F., ASSASSINATION PAPERS
SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL—Slides
. . . .
3. Reed Series-Stuart L. Reed photographs (14 slides)

The page can be reached HERE.

I’ve written to them requesting a description of each of the slides and/or photo reproductions and the cost, but so far haven’t heard anything.  Paul J. may know more about this.
 

[Tony Krome]

31 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

Oswald heard Capt. Fritz say "car," yet he responded by using the words "station wagon." Why? Even more important was Oswald's statement, "that station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine." Did Oswald suspect that Mrs. Paine was somehow involved? Oswald knew that Roger Craig didn't see him get into the station wagon. Could Oswald have suspected that Roger Craig saw LEE Oswald getting into a station wagon? And could Oswald also have thought that this station wagon belonged to Mrs. Paine?  Whatever Harvey Oswald was thinking, handcuffed and sitting in Capt. Fritz's office, he could say nothing more--he had already said too much (about Mrs. Paine and the station wagon).

The only way your theory works, is, as you have said, Oswald knew that Ruth Paine's station wagon was in the area at the time of the assassination AND that his doppelgänger was known to him AND that Ruth and the doppelgänger were working together to frame him.

So by 5pm on the 22nd, he was very suspicious .... yet;

Mrs. PAINE - The voice said: "This is Lee." 
Mr. JENNER - Give your best recollection of everything you said and if you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said. 
Mrs. PAINE - I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m. He gave me a telephone number of an office in New York and a residence in New York.

I'm guessing now that you and John don't believe this friendly conversation happened, and that he put all his faith in a person he suspected was setting him up.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

And if this was something other than a "friendly conversation," we can count on Mrs. Paine to say so?  Are you kidding?  Do you know her actions in this case?

What we do know is that, according to Fritz's report as published in the WCR:

One of the officers had told me that a cab driver, William Wayne Whaley, thought he had recognized Oswald’s picture as the man who had gotten in his cab near the bus station and rode to Beckley Avenue.  I asked Oswald if he had ridden a cab on that day, and he said, “Yes, I did ride in the cab. The bus I got on near where I work got into heavy traffic and was traveling too slow, and I got off and caught a cab.” I asked him about his conversation with the cab driver, and he said he remembered that when he got in the cab a lady came up who also wanted a cab, and he told Oswald to tell the lady to “take another cab.”

The handwritten notes allegedly made by Fritz confirm the above, as do the published reports by Bookhout and Thomas Kelley.  There were a number of other persons present as well.

[Paul Jolliffe]

16 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

I'd like to have considerably stronger evidence than that before using the word "proof." Also, I prefer that the evidence make a lot of sense. While creation of a sort of scrapbook of the movements of a patsy is a possible endeavor, it seems quite unnecessary to me and so it doesn't make as much sense as I'd like for my primary evidence. To me this is more along the lines of supporting evidence.

It would be helpful to know if the four photos we have are the only four on the roll of film, or at least were taken in succession. If Reed took numerous photos and the four we have were selected from them (as in "cherry picked"), that would lessen the impact. (I'm not accusing anybody here of cherry picking... it could have been that the FBI who cherry picked those four photos.)

It would also be helpful to know if Reed had intelligence ties.

 

Sandy,

According to Southeastern Louisiana University, they have 14 Stuart L. Reed slides in their collection. (These may not be all the ones he took that day, however.)

Here they are:

http://www.prayer-man.com/stuart-reed/#lightbox[group]/1/

A couple of comments:

Notice on slide #1, Reed was looking eastward on Jefferson Avenue, right at Hardy's Shoes. Although I can't quite make out the Hardy's Shoes sign, the store is just to the right of the "Austin Shoes" sign. So, adding to the pile, our man Reed just happened to take a photo of the storefront (from a distance) in which the suspect loitered while avoiding the cops. "Oswald" would have had to walk past these stores to get to the Texas Theater, according to the official narrative. 

Wow. (Here is the block today - Hardy's Shoes is now Liz Bridal and Quinceanera - in the maroon awning.)

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7431013,-96.8257708,3a,37.5y,57.29h,92.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seuPdd6UE75bW3vyLrVPVWg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Secondly, notice that although this collection has slide #7, the westbound image apparently of the McWatters bus stuck in traffic on Elm, there is no corresponding eastward image of the bus, as reproduced in Robert Groden's book "The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald" and also on John and Jim's "Harvey & Lee" website. and seen below. 

All I can guess is that the FBI withheld that image somehow. Too conspiratorial, probably. Also note that the quality of the reproductions on the SELU website is very poor - way too much contrast. If we compare the SELU and Groden images, for example, of the westbound bus, it is clear that Reed took some high quality photos, but we have only late generation reprints on the SELU website.

Finally, note slide #9 which is a backward looking, eastbound shot through the rear window as the vehicle leaves Dealey Plaza after crossing the Triple Underpass. The TSBD is in the background. This photo followed the route not only of the presidential limo, but also the "fleeing assassin", regardless of whether said assassin left via the station wagon or a taxi.

Speaking of which: Ruth Paine owned a light blue/green 1955 Chevy Bel Air station wagon. How in the world did that get changed to a Nash Rambler?

 

I

 

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Sandy,

According to Southeastern Louisiana University, they have 14 Stuart L. Reed slides in their collection. (These may not be all the ones he took that day, however.)

Here they are:

http://www.prayer-man.com/stuart-reed/#lightbox[group]/1/

A couple of comments:

Notice on slide #1, Reed was looking eastward on Jefferson Avenue, right at Hardy's Shoes. Although I can't quite make out the Hardy's Shoes sign, the store is just to the right of the "Austin Shoes" sign. So, adding to the pile, our man Reed just happened to take a photo of the storefront (from a distance) in which the suspect loitered while avoiding the cops. "Oswald" would have had to walk past these stores to get to the Texas Theater, according to the official narrative. 

Wow. (Here is the block today - Hardy's Shoes is now Liz Bridal and Quinceanera - in the maroon awning.)

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7431013,-96.8257708,3a,37.5y,57.29h,92.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seuPdd6UE75bW3vyLrVPVWg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

 

Nice catch Paul.

This means that, of all the photos Reed took after the shooting, only two don't seem to fit the official story of Oswald getting away. I wonder if it's possible that those two actually did fit the official story (as planned by the perpetrators), but the story was shortened by the WC/FBI.

I can't test this theory because I'm not familiar with the streets and landmarks in that part of Dallas. (Or in any part for that matter.)

The photos that don't seem to match the story are #10 and #14. It would be great if somebody could figure out where these photos were taken. If it turns out the are along the official escape route, my guess would be that they indeed were meant to reflect those parts of the escape route.

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Nice catch Paul.

This means that, of all the photos Reed took after the shooting, only two don't seem to fit the official story of Oswald getting away. I wonder if it's possible that those two actually did fit the official story (as planned by the perpetrators), but the story was shortened by the WC/FBI.

I can't test this theory because I'm not familiar with the streets and landmarks in that part of Dallas. (Or in any part for that matter.)

The photos that don't seem to match the story are #10 and #14. It would be great if somebody could figure out where these photos were taken. If it turns out the are along the official escape route, my guess would be that they indeed were meant to reflect those parts of the escape route.

 

Sandy,

#10 and #14 were both taken on Jefferson Avenue, very near the Texas Theater. #10 is looking west from the Texas Theater, on the opposite side of Jefferson. #14 is a street shot just slightly to the west of #1. On the left margin of #1, you can see the edge a sign that, as Reed panned his camera left, we can now read as the Thomas Furniture Mart in #14.

So, it would appear that all 14 extant shots from Stuart Reed could have been used to photo-illustrate the "flight of the assassin", especially as he made his way west on Jefferson from the Shoe Store to the Texas Theater.

Here is today's Google Maps streetview for #10:

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7431921,-96.8263535,3a,75y,308.11h,97.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scKbd66wQKrocz6tpZONH5g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

[Sandy Larsen]

21 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

23 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

How was brown shirted Oswald aware of any station wagon, regardless of who it belonged to, when he was catching the 12:36 bus 7 blocks away?

 

I'd like to have an explanation for this too. Roger Craig reportedly said that Oswald said he left in Ruth Paine's car.  (This according to Douglass's book.)

 

BTW....

JFK and the Unspeakable makes it sound as though Oswald himself said that he left in Ruth Paine's car. But if it was indeed Douglass's intention to report it that way, he apparently misread Craig's autobiography:

"I had said that Fritz had said to Oswald, 'This man saw you leave' (indicating me). Oswald said, 'I told you people I did.' Fritz then said, 'Now take it easy, son, we're just trying to find out what happened, ' and then (to Oswald), 'What about the car? ' to which Oswald replied, 'That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to drag her into this.' Fritz said car -- station wagon was not mentioned by anyone but Oswald."

I interpret this as Oswald saying merely that he had told them -- the interrogators -- that he left. Not that he left in the Rambler.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Good question.  Here's what John wrote about that very issue on my website:

When Craig arrived at the police station he saw Oswald, thru a glass window, sitting in a chair in an office. He told Capt. Fritz this was the man he saw run down the grassy knoll and get into the Nash Rambler. The two men went into the office and confronted Harvey Oswald. Fritz told Oswald, “This man [pointing to Craig] saw you leave.” Oswald replied, “I told you people I did.” Fritz then said, “Take it easy, son—we‘re just trying to find out what happened....What about the car?” Oswald leaned forward on the desk and said, “That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine—don‘t try to drag her into this.” Oswald then sat back in his chair and said in a calm, very low voice, “Everybody will know who I am now.”

Oswald heard Capt. Fritz say "car," yet he responded by using the words "station wagon." Why? Even more important was Oswald's statement, "that station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine." Did Oswald suspect that Mrs. Paine was somehow involved? Oswald knew that Roger Craig didn't see him get into the station wagon. Could Oswald have suspected that Roger Craig saw LEE Oswald getting into a station wagon? And could Oswald also have thought that this station wagon belonged to Mrs. Paine?  Whatever Harvey Oswald was thinking, handcuffed and sitting in Capt. Fritz's office, he could say nothing more--he had already said too much (about Mrs. Paine and the station wagon).

On April 1, 1964 Commission attorney David Belin took testimony from Roger Craig. Craig told the Commission that he saw (LEE) Oswald, wearing a white t-shirt, leave Dealey Plaza in a Nash Rambler station wagon. Belin showed Craig two sets of clothing for identification, each in a separate cardboard box. After Craig identified Oswald's clothing, Belin declined to make Craig's identification part of the Commission's record.

Roger Craig thought that Belin was uninterested in his testimony and said, "He acted like the quicker he got it over with the better." In his autobiography, When They Kill a President, Craig wrote that David Belin changed his testimony 14 times. Craig told the Commission the license plates on the Rambler were NOT the same color as Texas plates, but the Commission omitted the word "NOT" and made it appear as though they were the same color as Texas plates. Craig said the Rambler station wagon was light green but the Commission changed the color to a white station wagon.

NOTE: It is worth noting that light-colored Nash Rambler station wagons, with out of state license plates, were owned by two people whose names are familiar to JFK researchers. A 1962 Rambler Ambassador, 4-door station wagon was owned by Clay Shaw. A 1959 or 1960 light blue or light green Nash Rambler was owned by Lawrence Howard.

 

Bear in mind that the same notes and reports we rely on for Harvey Oswald's statement about Mrs. Paine's station wagon also indicate that he freely admitted to the bus and taxi ride.

 

Jim,

Thanks for answering that question. I'm satisfied that Oswald could have jumped to the conclusion that Fritz was talking about Ruth Paine's car. The episode actually supports something I've suspected for some time, and that is that Oswald knew or suspected Ruth Paine was also CIA.

(Just because they were both CIA doesn't mean they would actually deal with each other that way. Their respective missions would have been compartmented and they would have maintained their covers even when alone together.)

 

[Tony Krome]

33 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

BTW....

JFK and the Unspeakable makes it sound as though Oswald himself said that he left in Ruth Paine's car. But if it was indeed Douglass's intention to report it that way, he apparently misread Craig's autobiography:

"I had said that Fritz had said to Oswald, 'This man saw you leave' (indicating me). Oswald said, 'I told you people I did.' Fritz then said, 'Now take it easy, son, we're just trying to find out what happened, ' and then (to Oswald), 'What about the car? ' to which Oswald replied, 'That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to drag her into this.' Fritz said car -- station wagon was not mentioned by anyone but Oswald."

I interpret this as Oswald saying merely that he had told them -- the interrogators -- that he left. Not that he left in the Rambler.

 

Let's break it down.

Oswald said, 'I told you people I did.

From that comment, Oswald tells us that he had previously explained to Fritz about the circumstances on his leaving the TSBD. If you subscribe to the records we have of the 1st interrogation, it was walking east on Elm to the bus.

NO PREVIOUS MENTION  OF A CAR DURING THAT EXPLANATION

Then Fritz says 'What about the car?

At this point, Oswald, if a car was not previously mentioned, should of enquired of Fritz as to what car he was referring to, but he doesn't.

Oswald replied, 'That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine. Don't try to drag her into this.'

The explanation can be found here;

Craig: Later that afternoon I received word of the suspect‘s arrest and the fact that he was suspected of being involved in the President‘s death. I immediately thought of the man running down the grassy knoll. I made a telephone call to Capt. Will Fritz and gave him the description of the man I had seen and Fritz said, “that sounds like the suspect we have. Can you come up and take a look at him?”

After the telephone call with Craig, Fritz would have told Oswald that a man who saw a matching suspect run down the hill and leave in a car is on his way over.

In other words, Oswald, when asked by Fritz about the car, already knew which car they were referring to before Craig arrived.

That's why it was possible that Oswald said 'That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Speaking of which: Ruth Paine owned a light blue/green 1955 Chevy Bel Air station wagon. How in the world did that get changed to a Nash Rambler?

 

According to Craig's WC testimony:

Mr. BELIN - What model or make was it?
Mr. CRAIG - I thought it was a Nash.
Mr. BELIN - Why would you think it was a Nash?
Mr. CRAIG - Because it had a built-in luggage rack on 'the top. And--uh--at the time, this was the only type car I could fit with that type luggage rack.
Mr. BELIN - A Nash Rambler-is that what you're referring to?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; with a rack on the the back portion of the car, you know.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

6 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Notice on slide #1, Reed was looking eastward on Jefferson Avenue, right at Hardy's Shoes. Although I can't quite make out the Hardy's Shoes sign, the store is just to the right of the "Austin Shoes" sign. So, adding to the pile, our man Reed just happened to take a photo of the storefront (from a distance) in which the suspect loitered while avoiding the cops. "Oswald" would have had to walk past these stores to get to the Texas Theater, according to the official narrative. 

Awesome catch, Paul.  Thanks so much!!!

Do you know if Robert Groden has possession of the originals or copies of the slides?  You posted about this a couple of days ago, but I’m not sure where the originals, or at least better copies, might be.  I'd like to show this to John A. so we can put it up on the website.  

Reed’s two photos of McWatter’s bus printed on pp. 120-121 of The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald appear to be much better quality than the one in the Louisiana University archive.  Mr. Groden credits Reed for the photos and indicates in the captions that both are printed for the first time.

Also, you say above:

Quote

 

Speaking of which: Ruth Paine owned a light blue/green 1955 Chevy Bel Air station wagon. How in the world did that get changed to a Nash Rambler?

 

Good question!  First of all, we have to assume that Roger Craig got the quote right; after all, he wasn't officially in on the interrogations.  I don't think Fritz's or any of the other "official" reports on the interviews mention Oswald's comment about Mrs. Paine's car.  If Craig is correct, though, it shows that Harvey Oswald (the brown-shirted Oswald) didn't leave Dealey Plaza in the Nash Rambler.  Had he done so, he would have known that it wasn't Mrs. Paine's car.  It's a really strange story.

[Tony Krome]

14 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

On April 1, 1964 Commission attorney David Belin took testimony from Roger Craig. Craig told the Commission that he saw (LEE) Oswald, wearing a white t-shirt, leave Dealey Plaza in a Nash Rambler station wagon.

Can you please show me where in the testimony Craig said he saw a man in a white T-Shirt leave Dealey Plaza?

[Jim Hargrove]

You’re right, Tony.  The existing transcript of his testimony describes it as a “light tan shirt.”

Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? 
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him?
Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry. 

Later, though, when he saw who he thought was the same man in Fritz’s office he was wearing a white T-shirt.

Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt?
Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt. 
Mr. BELIN - All right. But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?
Mr. CRAIG - No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side.

This appears to be my mistake rather than John A's.  On my website he wrote Craig saw a man in a "light colored shirt."

At 12:40 P.M., Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was standing on the south side of Elm Street when he heard a shrill whistle coming from across the street. He saw a man with sandy brown hair, wearing faded blue trousers and a light colored shirt, hurrying toward the street. A light green Nash Rambler station wagon with a chrome luggage rack, driven by a husky latin man, with short, dark hair, was was moving slowly west on Elm Street. The vehicle suddenly stopped and the man, a white male in his early 20's, wearing a light colored shirt, about 5'9” tall and 140-150 pounds, ran across the lawn that was adjacent to the Elm Street extension and got into the station wagon. Craig was unable to cross Elm Street, due to heavy traffic, and watched as the car drove west on Elm, under the triple underpass, and headed in the direction of Oak Cliff.

Below, also from the website, are a series of pictures depicting what John believes was the Nash Rambler Oswald's movements toward the car.  The bottom one seems to show a man in a white shirt getting into a car.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Tony Krome]

30 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.

And for a more complete description of the shirt;

The suspect, as I will refer to him, who ran down the grassy knoll was wearing faded blue trousers and a long sleeved work shirt made of some type of grainy material. 

The above is from Craig's manuscript.

So we have a light tan long sleeved work shirt.

Plus;

Mr. BELIN - I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - It's the same type of shirt.
Mr. BELIN - I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit 150 be darker than the shirt he was wearing?
Mr. CRAIG - Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh.

According to Craig's testimony, the shirt he saw was the same type as CE150 but he thought it may have been lighter

CE151 anyone?

[Jim Hargrove]

You make a good case, Tony, but I think the book is hardly closed on the white-shirted Oswald.  One example that immediately comes to mind is the case the HSCA dubbed as the “Wes Wise allegation.”  The case is pretty well-known.  In it, at about 2:00 PM, just an hour and a half after the assassination, mechanic T.F. White spotted a man he believed to be Lee Harvey Oswald sitting in a car that future Dallas Mayor Wes Wise found had plates registered to J.D. Tippit’s close friend Carl Mather.  Mather was employed by CIA-connected Collins Radio.

See the HSCA report below, which states that the man White believed was LHO “turned in his seat and faced him head on, giving him a good look at his face.  The man was wearing a white ‘T’ shirt.”