“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Colour aside, Marina and Bledsoe still testify to the same shirt CE150

Bledsoe even describes the hole from the arrest scuffle;

Mr. BALL - In order to convince me that you did see it before you've got to tell me what there is about it that is the same, you see. Now, you try to convince me, or tell me why it is that you believe that this is the shirt that Oswald had on when you saw him on the bus? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, I would say it was. That hole--- 
Mr. BALL - Mostly the hole in the right sleeve? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes. 

In order to believe Oswald changed shirts before his arrest, you have to dismiss both Marina's and Bledsoe's account. 

Going further, if Bledsoe was talked into describing the Oswald bus shirt by the actions of the Secret Service who displayed the shirt to her at her home, it calls into question the whole convenient bus sighting, which ridiculously returns the assassin to the scene of the crime.

Mr. BALL - Had you ever seen the shirt before that? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well--- 
Mr. BALL - Have you? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; he had it on, though.

 

Tony,

Oswald said in his interrogation that he changed his shirt (and trouser) at his apartment because they were dirty. Do you think he lied? It seems that he would know better than anyone else.

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[Tony Krome]

15 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Tony,

Oswald said in his interrogation that he changed his shirt (and trouser) at his apartment because they were dirty. Do you think he lied? It seems that he would know better than anyone else.

 

Do I think he lied? For a start, you are referring to hearsay. 

According to Fritz's notes on the 22nd;

"home by bus changed britches"

In testimony, Fritz says this in reference to what was said on the 23rd;

Mr. FRITZ. This time he told me a different story about changing the clothing. He told me this time that he had changed his trousers and shirt and I asked him what he did with his dirty clothes and he said, I believe he said, he put them, the dirty clothes, I believe he said he put a shirt in a drawer. 

If you read my last post, I have doubts about Bledsoe's account.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Do I think he lied? For a start, you are referring to hearsay. 

 

True, Oswald's interrogation statements are all hearsay. But that he said he changed his shirt was reported independently by three interrogation attendees: Will Fritz , Thomas Kelley, and James Bookhout. Which gives the statement considerable credibility IMO. Unless there was a motive for the authorities to alter the story.

 

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

According to Fritz's notes on the 22nd;

"home by bus changed britches"

In testimony, Fritz says this in reference to what was said on the 23rd;

Mr. FRITZ. This time he told me a different story about changing the clothing. He told me this time that he had changed his trousers and shirt and I asked him what he did with his dirty clothes and he said, I believe he said, he put them, the dirty clothes, I believe he said he put a shirt in a drawer. 

 

I guess one could argue that maybe Oswald was being evasive or something when he changed his story about changing his clothes. But it seems to me that the most likely explanation is simply that he was being more complete the second time he told the story.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Going further, if Bledsoe was talked into describing the Oswald bus shirt by the actions of the Secret Service who displayed the shirt to her at her home, it calls into question the whole convenient bus sighting, which ridiculously returns the assassin to the scene of the crime.

Mr. BALL - Had you ever seen the shirt before that? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well--- 
Mr. BALL - Have you? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; he had it on, though.

IMO the evidence that a brown-shirted Oswald took a bus and taxi ride from the TSBD is every bit as good as the evidence that a white-shirted Oswald got into the Nash Rambler.

Some people here believe the bus and taxi ride were invented by the Dallas Police the evening of 11/22/63, but the evidence for it is simply overwhelming.  And yet as Tony points out, as an escape vehicle or even as a casual ride home, McWatters’ bus was a ridiculous choice. 

But since so much evidence shows it did happened, the only logical explanation is that brown-shirted Oswald was instructed to get on that bus.  That it was part of a detailed plan to frame him is obvious from the photos taken that day by U.S. Army civilian employee Stuart Reed, who in quick succession took a series of color pictures of the front of the Book Depository, two images of the Marsalis bus, and pictures of Oswald being dragged out of the Texas Theater.

Reed dropped off his film at the Dynacolor Company film processor in Dallas and soon left the country (he lived in the Canal Zone).  On 11/26/63,  Reed signed a document that gave the FBI “unrestricted permission” to pick up and utilize his film and slides for their investigation.

Are we seriously to believe that Reed JUST HAPPENED TO TAKE ALL THE PHOTOS BELOW?

 

 

 

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Some people here believe the bus and taxi ride were invented by the Dallas Police the evening of 11/22/63, but the evidence for it is simply overwhelming. 

I believe you have studied Oswald enough to know he's a frugal chap.

The most economical way to travel to and from work, would have been at the very least, a weekly bus pass. Certainly not buying one way or daily return tickets.

The person who boarded paid;

Mr. BALL - Paid his fare, did he? 
Mr. McWATTERS - Yes, sir; he just paid his fare and sat down on the second cross seat on the right. 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

That it was part of a detailed plan to frame him is obvious from the photos taken that day by U.S. Army civilian employee Stuart Reed, who in quick succession took a series of color pictures of the front of the Book Depository, two images of the Marsalis bus, and pictures of Oswald being dragged out of the Texas Theater.

 

Jim,

I'm trying to wrap my head around what the purpose might have been for Reed to take those photos. And also whether or not the subjects of the photos might have been mere coincidence.

Can you give us an idea of when each of those photos was taken relative to the time of the shooting and of Oswald's movements?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

On 11/26/63,  Reed signed a document that gave the FBI “unrestricted permission” to pick up and utilize his film and slides for their investigation.

 

Yeah, that is very odd that the FBI would take so much interest in photos that hadn't even been processed yet. As though they knew what the photos were of.

BTW Jim, was there some significance to whether HARVEY was wearing his light brown vs dark brow shirt?

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[John Butler]

What color is Oswald’s shirts:  CE 150 and CE 151

My wife generally has a better color sense than I do.  I asked her what color is CE 151.  She has pronounced Oswald’s shirt CE 151 as the color taupe which is a color that varies from brown to a light greyish color.  Taupe Color Chart:

She particularly picked the color Desert Taupe.  For her, the colors are identical. This is how that matches with Oswald’s shirts.

For myself, I see CE 151 as a redder color and not at all a taupe color.  And, that is the problem.  The difference in color perception accounts for people seeing different colors for Oswald’s shirts.

Color constancy is a notion that people will see colors like the Pantone Desert Taupe as the same color as CE 151 because that is how their brain and eyes work. 

There is also a red-green color deficiency problem.  All artists know that brown is made from red and green colors.  Depending on how much red or green is used you can have varying shades of brown.   If you add additional colors you can either strengthen or grey out the color.  An example would be to add blue to red and green to grey the color and arrive at a taupe color. 

Here is the deficiency problem:

The American Optometric Association:

Color Vision Deficiency

• What causes color vision deficiency?

• How is color vision deficiency diagnosed?

• How is color vision deficiency treated?

  Color vision deficiency is the inability to distinguish certain shades of color. The term "color blindness" is also used to describe this visual condition, but very few people are completely color blind.

  Most people with color vision deficiency can see colors, but they have difficulty differentiating between the following colors:

• particular shades of reds and greens (most common)

• blues and yellows (less common)

  People who are totally color blind, a condition called achromatopsia, can only see things as black and white or in shades of gray.
  
  Color vision deficiency can range from mild to severe, depending on the cause. It affects both eyes if it is inherited and usually just one if it is caused by injury or illness.
  
  Color vision is possible due to photoreceptors in the retina of the eye known as cones. These cones have light-sensitive pigments that enable us to recognize color. Found in the macula (the central part of the retina), each cone is sensitive to either red, green or blue light. The cones recognize these lights based on their wavelengths.
  
  Normally, the pigments inside the cones register different colors and send that information through the optic nerve to the brain. This enables you to distinguish countless shades of color. But if the cones don't have one or more light-sensitive pigments, you will be unable to see one or more of the three primary colors.
  
  The most common form of color deficiency is red-green. This does not mean that people with this deficiency cannot see these colors at all. They simply have a harder time differentiating between them, which can depend on the darkness or lightness of the colors.

   

Edited May 2, 2019 by John Butler

[Paul Jolliffe]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Jim,

I'm trying to wrap my head around what the purpose might have been for Reed to take those photos. And also whether or not the subjects of the photos might have been mere coincidence.

 

 

Sandy,

The guess that these photos were to be part of a photo-montage about the "flight of the assassin" seems plausible to me. Jim didn't mention it, but as soon as the FBI saw what these photos were, they flew to the Caribbean and actually helicoptered out to a boat on which Reed was a passenger at that moment to interview him. That's how suspicious the FBI was about these photos!

The man who first published these was Robert Groden and he told me that anecdote. He got it from Reed himself. Reed would not confess to an assignment, but nor did Groden say that Reed claimed they were a "coincidence", either. I think we can rule that out.

Reed may or may not have known exactly what his photo assignment actually involved that day. Once he realized the president was dead, he may have hightailed it out of there ASAP and let the FBI have whatever it wanted. (That's what I would have done in his position.)

Because those pictures were never part of the Warren Commission exhibits or documents, I think we can safely conclude they were "too hot to handle." Anyone with eyes would suspect monkey business at once - how could anyone "innocently" be in position to take pictures of McWatters' bus, stuck in traffic on Elm, east of the TSBD, at a time when "Oswald" had just boarded, or (more suspiciously) at the moment when two unidentified Dallas Policemen boarded that bus and searched the passengers for "weapons"? (See Roy Milton Jones' statement below)

Note too, that not only does Roy Milton Jones put cops searching for "Oswald" on the McWatters bus within minutes of the assassination, but Jones also destroys Mary Bledsoe's identification of "Oswald" - she didn't get on the bus until after the "Oswald" man had exited!

No wonder the Warren Commission did not call Roy Milton Jones as a witness!

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2641.pdf

 

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

I'm trying to wrap my head around what the purpose might have been for Reed to take those photos. And also whether or not the subjects of the photos might have been mere coincidence.

Can you give us an idea of when each of those photos was taken relative to the time of the shooting and of Oswald's movements?

Paul J’s post above admirably covered your first question, I think.  As for the timings….

According to the FBI, Reed said that the picture of the TSBD was taken about an hour after the assassination.  No similar statements exist for the other photos, but the Texas Theater arrest photo speaks for itself (it was taken a little after 1:50 pm). I’ve heard researchers say that the bus photos, from the traffic snarls and the early afternoon shadows, appear to have been taken soon after the assassination.  The photographic details seem entirely consistent with assuming the image is actually of McWatters’ bus with the brown-shirted Oswald on it. 

I’d guess that Reed snapped the bus photos first, just minutes after the hit, and that he then hung around for a half hour or so and took the image of the TSBD (let’s just for grins take the FBI's word for it that he said that he took it around 1:35), and that he then traveled to the Texas Theater, where he snapped his last money shot around 1:52 pm or so.

People who believe "Oswald" DID get on that Marsalis bus have always had to wonder why.  More than six years ago, Robert Charles-Dunne wrote on this very forum:  “If it seems counterintuitive for an escaping assassin to walk many blocks east in order to catch a westbound bus, the fact that he allegedly caught it almost directly in front of the building housing 112th US Military Intelligence may be illuminating. It is also where purported Umbrella Man Stephen Louis Witt was employed.”

Emphasis added above.

FBI REPORT ON REED'S PHOTOS

Edited May 2, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

Eight or nine years ago here, Tom Scully found and reproduced the article below on Stuart Reed.  Note, toward the end of the piece, that Reed was "decorated with the degree of Cavalier Officer of the Italian Order of Merit by the President and Prime Minister of Italy...."

Ring any bells?

[Tony Krome]

Description of man that boarded Bus 1213 as witnessed by Roy Milton Jones;

 

[Ray Mitcham]

If the guy on the bus, wore a Light blue jacket how could Mrs Bledsoe have seen a hole in the elbow of his shirt?

[Tony Krome]

24 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

If the guy on the bus, wore a Light blue jacket how could Mrs Bledsoe have seen a hole in the elbow of his shirt?

From Bledsoe's description, maybe he was swinging the jacket around ;

BLEDSOE: Oswald got on. He looks like a maniac.

; )

[Jim Hargrove]

Tony and Ray....

From your comments, I assume you guys doubt the bus and taxi ride happened at all, despite the fact that the brown-shirted Oswald apparently said he took the bus and taxi in front of numerous witnesses at DPD headquarters. I'm sure others here believe this too, but just because the memories of witnesses who saw “Oswald” briefly on the bus are less than perfect, it hardly means the whole episode was fabricated.  John Armstrong wrote a point-by-point critique of this belief by writing the following on my website.  Here’s a partial listing of his points:

• Naysayers criticize bus driver Cecil McWatters because he could not positively identify Oswald as a passenger on his bus. Naysayers ignore McWatters' description of this one passenger and his clothing—a man who rode in the middle of the bus for only 4 minutes. These naysayers forget there were perhaps dozens of bus passengers on several of McWatters' bus runs on 11/22/63, yet they endlessly criticize him for not remembering details about this one passenger.
• Naysayers criticize the testimony and memory of Milton Jones, who remembered Oswald as a passenger and remembered his light blue jacket and grey pants. Naysayers conveniently forget that Oswald sat behind Jones, and he only saw Oswald for a few seconds when he boarded and got off McWatters' bus.
• Naysayers criticize Mary Bledsoe and say that she did not see Oswald on the bus, because she saw “only a glimpse of him.” Naysayers forget that Oswald rented one of 3 bedrooms in her home and she saw him on a daily basis only 5 weeks before the assassination. He talked on the telephone constantly and interrupted her naps. Mrs. Bledsoe remembered that Oswald often spoke in a foreign language on her telephone. She was very familiar with Oswald's face and physique. Mrs. Bledsoe only needed a “glimpse” of Harvey Oswald to recognize him instantly.
• Naysayers constantly criticize Bledsoe and Jones and Whaley for their less than perfect memories. But Oswald was only in their presence for a mere 4-6 minutes. Naysayers conveniently forget that Bledsoe and Jones and Whaley all remembered that Oswald wore light colored grey pants on the bus and taxi. Oswald told Capt. Fritz that he had changed his dirty trousers (light colored grey pants) in his room. When arrested, Oswald was wearing very dark pants. His dirty light colored grey pants were later found in his room by police. How could Bledsoe and Jones and Whaley have known Oswald was wearing light grey pants on the bus/taxi unless they had personally seen him?
• Naysayers claim that McWatters never gave Oswald a bus transfer. If McWatters never gave bus transfer #004459 to Oswald, then perhaps naysayers would care to explain why Dallas Police called the Dallas Transit Division Superintendent. Explain how Mr. F.F. Yates was able to immediately identify McWatters as the driver who issued the bus transfer. Do the naysayers expect us to believe that Dallas Transit supervisors were coerced into going along with a fabricated story that the bus ride never happened?
• Naysayers ignore the fact that transfer #004459 came from McWatters' transfer book. They ignore McWatters' testimony that he remembered giving a transfer to Oswald and a transfer to a blond haired lady when both were getting off the bus. Naysayers ignore Mary Bledsoe's testimony that she spoke briefly with the blond lady when McWatters gave her a transfer. How would Oswald know about a blond-haired lady on McWatters bus unless he had ridden on that bus?
• Naysayers claim the bus transfer at the National Archives does not have a crease in the middle, so it was never folded and put in Oswald's pocket. Naysayers ignore the fact that National Archivist Steve Hamilton confirmed that the bus transfer has a crease in the middle, indicating that it had at one time been folded.
• Naysayers question the number of transfers given out by McWatters on 11/22/63. They know the first transfer McWatters issued was #004452, and they know the police found transfer #004459 in Oswald's shirt pocket. They claim, correctly, that McWatters gave out 8 transfers (#004452 to #004459). But they then claim that because McWatters told the WC that he gave out only two transfers, that 6 transfers were “missing.” Once again, these naysayers are simply misreading testimony. McWatters told the WC, “Yes, sir; I gave him one [bus transfer] about two blocks from where he got on [at Griffin]...that is the transfer because it had my punch mark on it....I gave only two transfers going through town on that trip [going through town on that trip!] and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the gentlemen that got off the bus, I issued two transfers....But that was the only two transfers were issued [on that ONE trip thru town]. Very simple. McWatters issued six transfers prior to picking up Oswald and the blond lady (prior to 12:40 PM). He then issued a transfer to the blond lady and a transfer to Oswald when they got off the bus (circa 12:44 PM).
• Oswald told Capt. Fritz and his interrogators about a blond woman asking William Whaley to call her a taxi, just after Oswald got into Whaley's taxi. William Whaley told the WC the same story--that just after Oswald got into the front seat of his taxi, a blond lady asked him to call a taxi for her. How is it possible that Oswald's and Whaley's stories match perfectly, unless this incident actually occurred and was remembered by both Oswald and Whaley?
• Naysayers conveniently forget that Oswald's reference to a blond-haired lady, which he told to Capt. Fritz and numerous law enforcement officers during interrogations, was also remembered by McWatters, Bledsoe, and Jones.
• Naysayers criticize William Whaley for saying that Oswald had a silverlike strip on his shirt. Naysayers ignore and intentionally overlook that Whaley also said Oswald was wearing a brown long-sleeve shirt and a t-shirt with a soiled collar.
• Naysayers criticize William Whaley because he said Oswald's bracelet was a “stretchband,” when it looks like a “chain link” bracelet. But naysayers, once again, should do their homework. Oswald's bracelet is listed on a DPD property form, found in Box 1, folder 8, item 1 at the Dallas Archives. It is identified as "One I.D. stretch band with 'Lee' inscribed.” Naysayers also fail so explain how Whaley could have known that Oswald was wearing any kind of silver-colored bracelet, unless he saw the bracelet himself on Oswald's left arm while riding in his taxi.
• Naysayers criticize William Whaley when he said that he drove Oswald to Neches and Beckley, because this address is non-existent. Naysayers conveniently fail to remember that Oswald instructed Whaley to drive to the 500 block of N. Beckley. As Whaley was driving south on N. Beckley, Oswald said “this will do.” Whaley then stopped randomly in the street, at an unknown address, and Oswald got out of his taxi. Whaley wrote “500 N. Beckley” in his manifest because that is what he remembered Oswald told him when he first got into his taxi.
• Naysayers criticize William Whaley because he wrote down the time of Oswald's taxi ride incorrectly in his manifest. Naysayers conveniently forget that Whaley explained to the WC that he always wrote the times of his taxi rides in 15-minute intervals. And said that he often wrote two, three, or four of these entries in his manifest at the same time, long after the taxi rides. Whaley said that when he got back to the Union Terminal he made an entry of the trip (to N Beckley) on his manifest for the day.
• Naysayers criticize taxi driver William Whaley for naming the number 3 man in the police lineup as Oswald, when he was identified by the police as the number 2 man. Naysayers ignore the explanation that Whaley gave to the WC. Whaley simply said that LHO, walking from left to the right, was the 3rd man brought out for the lineup. From left to right, according to the police, Oswald was the #2 man.
• Naysayers criticize and criticize these witnesses over the smallest of details, in an attempt to “prove” that the bus and taxi ride never happened. This is the extent of their “research.”
• Naysayers ignore the fact that Capt. Fritz and many law enforcement officers heard Oswald say that he rode a bus, got a bus transfer, got into a taxi, offered to let a blond-haired lady have his taxi, and paid an 85 cent fare. The facts are that Bledsoe and Jones testified that Oswald was on McWatters bus, transfer #004459 was found in Oswald's shirt pocket, Whaley testified that Oswald rode in his taxi, that Oswald offered to let a blond-haired lady have his taxi, and that Oswald paid 95 cents in taxi fare. Witness testimony and evidence match pretty well with what Oswald told his interrogators.
• Naysayers criticize, criticize, and criticize these witnesses for not having perfect memories. Yet these naysayers never produce a single document or a single witness by which to prove the taxi and bus ride never happened. Nor can they offer an ounce of PROOF as to what they think COULD HAVE happened—only speculation, fantasies, and daydreams.

John continued by writing the following:

To these naysayers, I would ask them to simply identify the person or persons who came up with the idea to fabricate a story in which the bus and taxi rider never happened. I would ask them to name the person or persons who had the knowledge, presence, and ability to fabricate such a hoax within hours of Oswald's arrest..

I would remind naysayers that Oswald himself said during his first and second interrogations that he rode a bus, long before the police knew about Cecil McWatters. And Oswald made these statements in the presence of Capt. Fritz, James Hosty, Thomas Kelley, James Bookhout, and numerous officers. These people took notes, made reports, and/or gave WC testimony about statements made by Oswald. These naysayers would have us believe that a person or persons unknown convinced all of these people (SS agents Kelley, Nully and Forrest: FBI agents Hosty, Grant, Odum and Bookout; US Marshall Nash; Capt Fritz, DPD officers Sims, Boyd, Turner, Hall, Dhority, Owens, Leavelle, and Senkel, taxi driver Whaley, bus driver McWatters, bus passengers Bledsoe and Jones, bus and taxi officials) to lie and go along with a fabricated story that the bus and taxi ride never happened. But no matter how much evidence researchers produce to prove that Oswald rode on a bus and in a taxi on 11/22/63, we can be sure that irresponsible naysayers can and will find the most trivial, superficial, and inconsequential reasons to continue their criticism.

Rather than nit-pick the statements and memories of witnesses who saw “Lee Harvey Oswald” riding in either the station wagon, bus, or taxi, naysayers should study the overwhelming amount of evidence that shows there were two “Lee Harvey Oswalds” who looked very similar. At 12:40 PM LEE Oswald got into a Nash Rambler station wagon in front of the TSBD, while HARVEY Oswald was getting into McWatters' city bus at Elm and Griffin. An hour and a half later HARVEY Oswald was arrested, handcuffed, and sitting in a room at Dallas Police headquarters. When Capt Fritz pointed to Roger Craig and said to Oswald, “This man saw you leave....what about the car?” Oswald replied, “that station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine.....” HARVEY Oswald dared not say any more, but his statement about Mrs. Paine and a station wagon shows that he knew a lot more than what he told his interrogators .

George Lardner, of the Washington Post, reported that “[CIA Director] Richard Helms told reporters that no one would ever know who or what Lee Harvey Oswald...represented.” In 1977 Helms became the only CIA director to be convicted of misleading Congress.