“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Paul Jolliffe]

7 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

You’re right, Tony.  The existing transcript of his testimony describes it as a “light tan shirt.”

Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? 
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him?
Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry. 

Later, though, when he saw who he thought was the same man in Fritz’s office he was wearing a white T-shirt.

Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt?
Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt. 
Mr. BELIN - All right. But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?
Mr. CRAIG - No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side.

This appears to be my mistake rather than John A's.  On my website he wrote Craig saw a man in a "light colored shirt."

At 12:40 P.M., Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was standing on the south side of Elm Street when he heard a shrill whistle coming from across the street. He saw a man with sandy brown hair, wearing faded blue trousers and a light colored shirt, hurrying toward the street. A light green Nash Rambler station wagon with a chrome luggage rack, driven by a husky latin man, with short, dark hair, was was moving slowly west on Elm Street. The vehicle suddenly stopped and the man, a white male in his early 20's, wearing a light colored shirt, about 5'9” tall and 140-150 pounds, ran across the lawn that was adjacent to the Elm Street extension and got into the station wagon. Craig was unable to cross Elm Street, due to heavy traffic, and watched as the car drove west on Elm, under the triple underpass, and headed in the direction of Oak Cliff.

Below, also from the website, are a series of pictures depicting what John believes was the Nash Rambler Oswald's movements toward the car.  The bottom one seems to show a man in a white shirt getting into a car.

 

It's hard to see a luggage rack toward the back as described by Craig, but there could be one there. This car seems to have the same deep wheel wells, the same basic grill, the slightly spaced headlights, and the same hood as a 1961 Nash Rambler Cross Country station wagon. It's impossible to say for certain, but Deputy Craig saw the car in person and believed that's what it was.

Is this the make and model of the car seen by Craig, and photographed by Jim Murray?

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Paul,

I’m not very good with car identification so thanks for the color picture.  John A. thinks the fuzzy b&w image is a Nash Rambler,  and it looks quite possible to me if your photo is reasonably correct.

Bear in mind that the initial Dallas police radio dispatches for Tippit’s killer reported a suspect in a white shirt and white jacket.  We think that was the Nash Rambler Oswald.  Thirty minutes or so after Classic Oswald® was arrested in the theater, T.F. White reported seeing Oswald in a “white ‘T’ shirt” in a car with license plates traced to Tippit’s friend and Collins Radio employee Carl Mather.
 

[Jim Hargrove]

Please look at the Gerda Dunkel animated gif below, which zooms in on a well-known Dealey Plaza JFK assassination film and runs for just 4 or 5 seconds.  At the very end of the clip (within the last half second or so at the extreme right side of the image) is a man who appears to be wearing a white t-shirt running down the hill toward Elm. 

Please allow a minute or so for the animation to load.

I had to watch the clip twenty or thirty times to see the man in the white shirt at the very end.  But now that I’ve seen it so many times, I can’t forget it.  YOU MAY HAVE TO LET THE ANIMATION LOOP MANY TIMES TO SEE THE MAN IN THE WHITE SHIRT AT THE EXTREME RIGHT AT THE VERY END!!  If you can see him, please answer this question:

Who is the man in the white shirt and dark pants at the very end of this clip?  Again, he’s on the extreme right side of the frame.

Please wait for the animation to load:

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Please wait for the animation to load:

 

He's a lot easier to see if you zoom way in.

1. Right-click the image.
2. Select View Image from the drop down menu.
3. Hold the CTRL button down and keep pressing + till the image is large enough to see the guy.
4. When you're done, click your browser's back button to come back to this page.

Jim, where is the cameraman located and what are we looking at? Are we looking at where white-shirted LEE was supposed to have been running down to the Rambler?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Please wait for the animation to load:

 

Jim,

Problem is, this guy is wearing light colored slacks, not black.

I used a gif animation viewer to carefully see the moving guy. Surprisingly he's in only two of the frames.  I can single step back and forth through the gif with the program. It's easy to see that he has a white or very light top, and light colored slacks. I'm confident that anybody whole looks at the two enlarged frames, non-animated, will see light colored slacks.

 

[Tony Krome]

The white car you see on the inset picture is driving on Stemmons Freeway. Whatever that white figure is that appears on the last 2 frames of the above gif, is moving behind the triple underpass

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks, guys.  I sent the clip to John A. a couple of days ago and he thought it was too unclear to analyze.  But I was still wondering....

Tony—If you’re 100 percent certain the white car is on the Stemmons Freeway, then this is not the Nash Rambler Oswald.  Even with your additional image, though, I can’t seem to get my bearings.  Doesn’t the Stemmons Freeway go over Commerce St?  Does the white car look elevated to you?

Sandy—I’m not sure how relevant the slacks are.  Classic Oswald® allegedly changed his pants and put on much darker pants at the rooming house.  Craig Roberts testified that the Nash Rambler Oswald had medium blue pants and “looked like he was in an awful hurry.”

[John Butler]

Jim,

There are 34 frames in this .gif.  Frames 2 to 31 show the man in white.  White shirt and white slacks.  Or, some color close to white.  As far a man running down hill, I don't see that.  Tony Krome has correctly identified the area in the Bell film with this .gif.  Is it the same film, I don't think so or, at least I have reservations due to the quality of the film being better than Bell.  Whose film was used by Gerda Dunkel?  What well know assassination film was this?  Was it a better version of the Bell film?  The angle of the small inset seems to be the same as Bell.

In Bell the crane or whatever structure seems to be in front of Stemmons rather than on the west side.  Can this scene in the .gif be found in Bell however poor the image is?  It looks like some editing or darkening of one section of the structure has been done.

Regardless, to see the Stemmons Freeway from Dealey Plaza you have to be in an elevated position.  Bell was.  Patsy Paschall was.  (Paschall's filming of the railroad bridge is blackened out.)  I don't know of anyone else.   Elsie Dorman was in an elevated position but she didn't film the railroad bridge.  Toni Glover was in an elevated position but I don't think she was filming.  There were other people (3) on the elevated position with Bell.  I don't know of any film from them.  Anyone filming from the Court House or Court Records Building would have elevation to shoot across the railroad bridge to Stemmons. 

The railroad bridge is over 100 feet in width.  I believe there are 7 tracks there.   There were several photographers the government either seized their work and destroyed or missed their work in their dragnet and for whatever reason those photographers didn't come forward and are unknown. There were about 30 or more photographers films or photos are unknown.  You can see these people in the various photos available.

Tony's film clearly shows that there is no one on the railroad bridge above Elm Street.  That's one of my proofs for saying Altgens 7 is a fraud.  We don't see in this frame Officer Foster and 10 or so railroad workers above Elm Street.  The people, possibly railroad workers, are in the area off to the side of the bridge where Officer Foster kept them until the presidential limousine left Dealey Plaza.  The railroad workers in Altgens 7 are hard to compare to the small .gif, particularly in the person in white.

Curiously, a few frames later (it can't be more than 1 or 2 seconds) there are people on the railroad bridge where they are in the Altgens photo. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

It's the Bell film.  Here are two frames showing pretty much the same thing but, there is some time between the frames.  One can time the difference by noting what vehicle is in the right hand frame and calculating the time between seeing the SS security vehicle in the left hand frame and the convertible in the second frame.  In the left frame the crane can be seen better and appears not to be edited.   But, still appears to be in front of the Stemmons Freeway. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by John Butler

[John Butler]

I haven't got a clue of what is shown here.  It does appear that the scenery behind the railroad bridge in frame 34 of Dunkel has changed from the Stemmons to something else.  Some man floating in the air with the railroad bridge in the distance.  And, that is really a stretch to say that.

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

Yes, the still you posted directly above appears to be from the very end of the Dunkel clip.  The red arrow (I think!) is pointing to the guy in the white shirt I was asking about.  Tony believes that is the Stemmons Freeway he's running toward, which, if so, would mean this is NOT the Nash Rambler Oswald.

[John Butler]

Yes.  I would say it is physically impossible for someone to be running in the grass there.  What should be shown is what is shown in other Bell frames, the Stemmons and vehicles.

The Nash Rambler Oswald happened in front of the TSBD and not on the other side of the railroad bridge.

Just as an added extra.  The other frames that show people on the railroad bridge as the presidential limousine approaches and goes under don't match the railroad workers as seen in Altgens 7.

[Sandy Larsen]

Jim,

I'll try to help you get your bearing on your animated gif. My apologies if you already know what I'm about to explain.

The camera for your animated gif appears to have been located somewhere in the Plaza and aimed in the same direction as the camera was for this photo:

 

 

Okay, see the two cars going under the overpass? Above them are spectators leaning on the concrete fence and facing the camera. Follow the top of the fence over to our right till your see the concrete pillar that's a part of the fence and rises above the top of the fence. Notice how the pillar has a design that looks like stair steps. Like we are looking at the profile of some steps. Keep that shape in mind.

The inset (from your animated gif)  in Tony's photo shows the same pillar.

 

 

In the inset (that came from your gif) there are two or three guys standing near the concrete fence. They are standing where the railroad tracks cross over the roads. The white car apparently is on an overpass of Stemmons Freeway, which is about 500 ft west of the railroad tracks.

The photographer must have been at an elevation approximating that of the railway and Stemmons overpass in order to get that shot with the white car. He/she also must have been using a telephoto lens given that the white car appears as big as it does... almost big enough that the guys on the railroad overpass look like they could hop inside the car if it wasn't going so fast.

Now, back to your animated gif... to me it looks like the guy in the white shirt is running on the freeway (not railroad) overpass in the opposite direction of the car. Because, assuming he's an adult, his size is more consistent with the size of the white car than the size of the two or three guys standing on the railroad overpass.

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks, Sandy.  I finally see the perspective here.  Thanks also to Tony and John.

I've got a new post ready about Bill Shelley's possible CIA connections and his handling of "Oswald," but this thread has gotten so long I think I'll start a new one.

[John Butler]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

I'll try to help you get your bearing on your animated gif. My apologies if you already know what I'm about to explain.

The camera for your animated gif appears to have been located somewhere in the Plaza and aimed in the same direction as the camera was for this photo:

 

 

Okay, see the two cars going under the overpass? Above them are spectators leaning on the concrete fence and facing the camera. Follow the top of the fence over to our right till your see the concrete pillar that's a part of the fence and rises above the top of the fence. Notice how the pillar has a design that looks like stair steps. Like we are looking at the profile of some steps. Keep that shape in mind.

The inset (from your animated gif)  in Tony's photo shows the same pillar.

 

 

In the inset (that came from your gif) there are two or three guys standing near the concrete fence. They are standing where the railroad tracks cross over the roads. The white car apparently is on an overpass of Stemmons Freeway, which is about 500 ft west of the railroad tracks.

The photographer must have been at an elevation approximating that of the railway and Stemmons overpasses in order to get that shot with the white car. He/she also must have been using a telephoto lens given that the white car appears as big as it does... almost big enough that the guys on the railroad overpass look like they could hop inside the car if it wasn't going so fast.

Now, back to your animated gif... to me it looks like the guy in the white shirt is running on the freeway (not railroad) overpass in the opposite direction of the car. Because, assuming he's an adult, his size is more consistent with the size of the white car than the size of the two or three guys standing on the railroad overpass.

 

Sandy Larsen is a sharp, intelligent and well seasoned researcher.  If I am reading him correctly he is expressing doubt that the Krome insert is from the Bell film.  And, you can clearly see that doubt in what Krome posted.  In the insert there are people by the bridge ornamental detail and there are no people in that particular Bell frame.  The area seems to be blacked out.  This is one of the problems of the Bell film.  I thought since Sandy has doubts about this I had better go back and take another look.

I believe the Krome insert is from the Bell film as I have posted earlier.  In checking this out I think I have run across something that might be interesting about the Bell film.  First, there seems to be some kind of disconnect between parts of the railroad as shown.  I can't figure this out.

That is interesting but, what is more interesting is the section in the upper right hand corner.  The section marked in red in the following:

People have a tendency to anthropomorphize or zoomorphize inanimate objects.  We tend to see human or animal forms in objects.  That might be what is happening in the upper right hand portion of this frame.  I see a human face on the train or billboards or buildings or whatever that structure is.  Things like this should be dismissed unless there is something else at play involved.  If you look closely at the shadows of the trees and the tree branches and their leaves you will see painted artwork.  In other words this scene has been edited.  This leads me to believe there may be a face there.  Is this one of the photo editors.  From time to time I have noticed other odd things in other films and photos.

Why this editing?  It wasn't necessary or was it?  Is the scene with the Stemmons Freeway and vehicles edited too?  Why would someone do this?  What is being covered up.

There is definitely editing going on with the painting of shadows and tree branches.  You can see the brush strokes because the artist really didn't take his time to do this thinking this would never be seen.  Here are more frames showing artwork in the scene and what may be a human face or faces.

 

 The artwork in these frames is of poor quality in shaping the tree shadows and branches of the trees.  The area enclosing the human face is crudely outlined in black.  It is not a structure having form and regularity.  That and the other poor quality artwork is the reason there may be some reality in seeing this as a human face. 

This is way off Jim's topic but, I thought it might have some amusement and provoke some thought about the authenticity of the Bell film.

 

Edited May 10, 2019 by John Butler