“The lights all went out,” and the elevators stopped while JFK was murdered. Shelley and Lovelady were near the bottom of the back staircase, by the electrical panel... and Vickie Adams saw them ... until everyone's story changed...

[Jim Hargrove]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I just want to add that I too noticed that out-of-order 1:10 timestamp. But when I subtracted 7 minutes from all the other timestamps to correct them (because I had concluded that the WC/FBI had added 7 minutes to them all), the 1:10 timestamp landed in order. And so I concluded that -- probably -- when the transcripts of the radio logs were altered by adding the 7 minutes, the persons doing so accidentally missed the 1:10 timestamp.

Sandy,

The question, then, would be were transcripts made of the Dictabelt recordings before the FBI seized and replaced them, and the evidence seems to suggest there wasn’t time.  From John’s write-up in The Murder of J.D. Tippit:

DPD dispatcher Murray Jackson, who worked 20 years at the Dallas Police department, told the HSCA that the dictabelts/tapes were sequestered almost immediately after his shift ended on November 22, 1963. Police Chief Lumpkin had the dictabelts and discs placed in sealed envelopes and taken to his office. A few days later the Dallas Police gave the FBI their original dictabelts and discs that contained the original recordings of the dispatchers' radio transmissions from channel 1 and channel 2 on November 22, 1963.

Note also this indication of a TAPE SPLICE at 1:44 on the FBI transcript of the recordings.  What on earth is a tape splice doing on a Dictabelt recording?  Dictabelts are not tape and they cannot be spliced, although I'm not sure what Murray Jackson's reference to "tapes" was about above.  I'll try to remember to ask John about it.

 

John’s complete write-up on the Dictabelt alteration begins here:

https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/Tippit.html#Dictabelt

Edited May 23, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sandy,

The question, then, would be were transcripts made of the Dictabelt recordings before the FBI seized and replaced them, and the evidence seems to suggest there wasn’t time.  From John’s write-up in The Murder of J.D. Tippit:

DPD dispatcher Murray Jackson, who worked 20 years at the Dallas Police department, told the HSCA that the dictabelts/tapes were sequestered almost immediately after his shift ended on November 22, 1963. Police Chief Lumpkin had the dictabelts and discs placed in sealed envelopes and taken to his office. A few days later the Dallas Police gave the FBI their original dictabelts and discs that contained the original recordings of the dispatchers' radio transmissions from channel 1 and channel 2 on November 22, 1963.

Note also this indication of a TAPE SPLICE at 1:44 on the FBI transcript of the recordings.  What on earth is a tape splice doing on a Dictabelt recording?  Dictabelts are not tape and they cannot be spliced, although I'm not sure what Murray Jackson's reference to "tapes" was about above.  I'll try to remember to ask John about it.

 

John’s complete write-up on the Dictabelt alteration begins here:

https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/Tippit.html#Dictabelt

 

Jim,

I don't know enough about the history of the original records, the audio tape copies made of them, and the transcripts to try and figure out how it was all done. But from the work I did -- which was just studying a bunch of evidence, noting irreconcilable contradictions, and hypothesizing how the contradictions could be explained -- I'm satisfied that the recordings and transcripts were all changed at one point or another.

The fact that the audio recordings are available today means that it wasn't just the transcripts that were altered. I understand that the first public domain audio recordings were quite noisy and that more recently better recordings were released. This is pure speculation, but I'll bet that the first audio releases were made to be noisy on purpose to cover up what were probably noticeable clicking sounds where altered timestamps were dubbed in. And then when technology made it easy to make near-perfect dubs, the process was repeated and the better recordings released. As I said, speculation.

McAdam's website has what I believe are supposed to be the complete transcripts, as opposed to the abbreviated WC ones. It strikes me as odd that there is no  indication of an ambulance picking up or dropping off Tippit's body. It is clear that 602 didn't get the body because the transcript shows that they were looking for a different address.

Interestingly, had 603 gone to Methodist Hospital instead of Baylor Medical Center, its timing would have been perfect for a Tippit ride to the hospital (after subtracting the 7 or 8 minutes from the timestamps). It makes me wonder if "Methodist" was changed to "Baylor" in the recordings and transcripts. Here is ambulance 603's timing:  It took 603 5 minutes to get to the hospital, and it arrived at the hospital at 7:22. Google Maps shows that five minutes is about how long it would take to transport the body to Methodist in moderate/heavy traffic. And subtracting 7 minutes from the 7:22 hospital arrival time means the body would have gotten there at 1:15. Which is precisely the DOA time marked on Tippit's death certificate. The word "Baylor" is the only thing ruining this scenario.)

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sandy,

The question, then, would be were transcripts made of the Dictabelt recordings before the FBI seized and replaced them, and the evidence seems to suggest there wasn’t time.  From John’s write-up in The Murder of J.D. Tippit:

DPD dispatcher Murray Jackson, who worked 20 years at the Dallas Police department, told the HSCA that the dictabelts/tapes were sequestered almost immediately after his shift ended on November 22, 1963. Police Chief Lumpkin had the dictabelts and discs placed in sealed envelopes and taken to his office. A few days later the Dallas Police gave the FBI their original dictabelts and discs that contained the original recordings of the dispatchers' radio transmissions from channel 1 and channel 2 on November 22, 1963.

Note also this indication of a TAPE SPLICE at 1:44 on the FBI transcript of the recordings.  What on earth is a tape splice doing on a Dictabelt recording?  Dictabelts are not tape and they cannot be spliced, although I'm not sure what Murray Jackson's reference to "tapes" was about above.  I'll try to remember to ask John about it.

 

John’s complete write-up on the Dictabelt alteration begins here:

https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/Tippit.html#Dictabelt

Jim,

What time did Murray Jackson's shift end? (I assume it was some time Friday evening, right? Or did he work late after midnight? Or, was he on the day shift?)

I am asking because I want to figure out how quickly Deputy Chief George L. Lumpkin and the DPD knew that the Dictabelt/tapes (?) were going to be critical evidence in the case against "Oswald". If Lumpkin was responding to Friday night pressure from the FBI to secure those materials, then that implies that someone in the FBI knew on Friday that the audio recordings would be important to build the case against "Oswald" - even before he had been formally charged!

However, an early end to Jackson's shift may also imply that Lumpkin himself was from the start in on the plot to frame "Oswald."

Is it a coincidence that the president of the Texas School Book Depository, Mr. Jack Charles Cason, described himself as the former commander of American Legion Post 53 in Dallas (and as "a patriotic citizen who upholds our democratic principles") and the Deputy Chief George Lumpkin was himself a Provost for the American Legion Committee Chairmen at the 1964 national convention?

Is it a coincidence that just as the limo arrived at Parkland with the victims (before any possible determination could have been made), Lumpkin "suggested to Chief Curry that he take the Homicide Detectives back to Elm and Houston streets from where it was thought that the shots were fired at the President and the Governor from the Texas School Book Depository . . ." ?

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/C Disk/Cason Jack Charles/Item 01.pdf

[Jim Hargrove]

Paul,

Here’s what I’ve been able to find searching at Baylor’s John Armstrong collection (emphasis added).

According to an interview with Murray Jackson summarized by HSCA staff,  

“JACKSON tells us that the tapes were sequestered almost immediately after the shift ended, and JACKSON would not have had access to the original, to dub in any comments. JACKSON left after his shift and went to the home of TIPPIT.”

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/10393/rec/1

According to a summary of an HSCA interview of Sergeant Gerald D. Henslee, supervisor of the dispatcher’s unit, 

“On 11-22-63 he had four officers and four civilians working for him on the day shift. The officers were: V. A.McDaniels, C. E. Hulse, Murray Jackson (Tippit's erstwhile partner) and Bob Huffstutler….”

The summary of Henslee’s interview goes on to state, 

“Later that afternoon he started to transcribe channel two (autograph disc) - about 5 PM. After that, Chief Lumpkin came in and told him to take all the tapes (and discs), place them in sealed envelopes and bring them to him. This was done shortly after 5 PM. Tapes (and discs) were sent to FBI for transcribing, but were returned later as channel one was too vague what with the interference and the unfamiliar names, etc.

“Chief Lumpkin again gave them to Henslee for complete transcribing. It was 3 to 4 days later that he completed the task and returned them to Lumpkin.

“Henslee next saw the original tapes sometime in the fall of 1968 when he received a call from Judy Bonner, ex-news media in Dallas area, turned author. She wanted him to transcribe the tapes for her efforts with the book she was working on. She delivered them to his apartment and he transcribed them – again, but this time for her. Doesn't know where tapes were between November, 1963 and Fall of 1968.

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/9716/rec/2

Interesting that the DPD dispatcher supervisor said didn’t know where the “tapes” (actually Dictabelts) were from November 1963 to the Fall of 1968.

Steve Thomas seems to know the DPD archives inside and out.  He might know more about this.

[Sandy Larsen]

15 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:



 

 

According to this document, Inspector J.H. Sawyer and other officers were already "in the process of detaining everyone who had any knowledge whatsoever of the shooting" at the TSBD before Lumpkin arrived. It seems to me that it may have been one of Sawyer's officers who stopped Oswald from leaving rather than Lumpkin's man, Lt. Erich Kaminsky.

If so, this means Oswald could have left earlier than the time we were discussing earlier. (12:49?)

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

49 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

According to this document, Inspector J.H. Sawyer and other officers were already "in the process of detaining everyone who had any knowledge whatsoever of the shooting" at the TSBD before Lumpkin arrived. It seems to me that it may have been one of Sawyer's officers who stopped Oswald from leaving rather than Lumpkin's man, Lt. Erich Kaminsky.

If so, this means Oswald could have left earlier than the time we were discussing earlier. (12:49?)

 

Sandy,

My point was that somehow Lumpkin knew from where the shots originated by the time JFK had arrived at Parkland! His "knowledge" could not have been from first-hand experience - Lumpkin was the driver of the "pilot car" in the motorcade and was west of the Triple Underpass and Dealey Plaza when the shots rang out. During the motorcade's race to Parkland, the local authorities believed the shots came from the grassy knoll, as evidenced by both Chief Curry and Sheriff Decker's infamous orders to get men up on the triple overpass and into the railroad yard. Yet Lumpkin knew immediately that the key location was not the railyard, but the TSBD!

To me, this strongly implies that Lumpkin had foreknowledge of the shooting! 

At Parkland, Lumpkin "suggested" to Chief Curry that he, Lumpkin, go to the TSBD with the Homicide Detectives at that moment, and as we read from the document, Lumpkin then started making the decision about what to do with anyone who might have had knowledge of the shooting, sealing the building, etc. 

(I think it highly likely that "Oswald" had left the TSBD well before 12:49. Truly's (wholly false) claim that he "noticed" that "Oswald" was missing does not work if "Oswald" was still hanging around the TSBD at least four minutes after the 12:45 DPD broadcast description of the shooter.)

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Paul,

Here’s what I’ve been able to find searching at Baylor’s John Armstrong collection (emphasis added).

According to an interview with Murray Jackson summarized by HSCA staff,  

“JACKSON tells us that the tapes were sequestered almost immediately after the shift ended, and JACKSON would not have had access to the original, to dub in any comments. JACKSON left after his shift and went to the home of TIPPIT.”

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/10393/rec/1

According to a summary of an HSCA interview of Sergeant Gerald D. Henslee, supervisor of the dispatcher’s unit, 

“On 11-22-63 he had four officers and four civilians working for him on the day shift. The officers were: V. A.McDaniels, C. E. Hulse, Murray Jackson (Tippit's erstwhile partner) and Bob Huffstutler….”

The summary of Henslee’s interview goes on to state, 

“Later that afternoon he started to transcribe channel two (autograph disc) - about 5 PM. After that, Chief Lumpkin came in and told him to take all the tapes (and discs), place them in sealed envelopes and bring them to him. This was done shortly after 5 PM. Tapes (and discs) were sent to FBI for transcribing, but were returned later as channel one was too vague what with the interference and the unfamiliar names, etc.

“Chief Lumpkin again gave them to Henslee for complete transcribing. It was 3 to 4 days later that he completed the task and returned them to Lumpkin.

“Henslee next saw the original tapes sometime in the fall of 1968 when he received a call from Judy Bonner, ex-news media in Dallas area, turned author. She wanted him to transcribe the tapes for her efforts with the book she was working on. She delivered them to his apartment and he transcribed them – again, but this time for her. Doesn't know where tapes were between November, 1963 and Fall of 1968.

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/9716/rec/2

Interesting that the DPD dispatcher supervisor said didn’t know where the “tapes” (actually Dictabelts) were from November 1963 to the Fall of 1968.

Steve Thomas seems to know the DPD archives inside and out.  He might know more about this.

Hmm.

So Deputy Chief George Lumpkin knew by shortly after 5 pm that he needed to have physical possession of the dispatch tapes/dictabelt recordings. This was before the FBI seized all of the relevant evidence late Friday night. Before Chief Curry was pressured into releasing the "evidence" to the FBI. 

As a matter of fact, at 5 pm, the lineups in which "Oswald" was identified (or not) by various witnesses had yet to take place!

All of the audio evidence was turned over to the FBI on Friday night, but was later returned as "too vague". Meanwhile, apparently no one from the DPD could have listened to the original tapes before they went to the FBI except for Lumpkin. No one from the DPD would know whether the audio evidence the FBI returned to the DPD was original, except for Lumpkin.

I'd say Deputy Chief George Lumpkin's connections to various suspects outside the DPD deserve some very careful scrutiny.

[Sandy Larsen]

30 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

According to this document, Inspector J.H. Sawyer and other officers were already "in the process of detaining everyone who had any knowledge whatsoever of the shooting" at the TSBD before Lumpkin arrived. It seems to me that it may have been one of Sawyer's officers who stopped Oswald from leaving rather than Lumpkin's man, Lt. Erich Kaminsky.

If so, this means Oswald could have left earlier than the time we were discussing earlier. (12:49?)

 

Sandy,

My point was that somehow Lumpkin knew from where the shots originated by the time JFK had arrived at Parkland! 

 

Paul,

Yes, I understood you point. And a very good one it was.

I was just noting an unrelated observation I'd made from the document you posted.

 

30 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

(I think it highly likely that "Oswald" had left the TSBD well before 12:49. Truly's (wholly false) claim that he "noticed" that "Oswald" was missing does not work if "Oswald" was still hanging around the TSBD at least four minutes after the 12:45 DPD broadcast description of the shooter.)

 

That's another good point. I no longer believe that it was Kaminsky who stopped Oswald at the door.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

29 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

I'd say Deputy Chief George Lumpkin's connections to various suspects outside the DPD deserve some very careful scrutiny.

 

I agree.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

I’d sure like to know exactly what Lumpkin said to Curry about taking police detectives from Parkland back to Dealey Plaza.  Did he refer directly to the TSBD, or simply to the vicinity of the assassination?
 

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Hmm.

So Deputy Chief George Lumpkin knew by shortly after 5 pm that he needed to have physical possession of the dispatch tapes/dictabelt recordings. This was before the FBI seized all of the relevant evidence late Friday night. Before Chief Curry was pressured into releasing the "evidence" to the FBI. 

As a matter of fact, at 5 pm, the lineups in which "Oswald" was identified (or not) by various witnesses had yet to take place!

All of the audio evidence was turned over to the FBI on Friday night, but was later returned as "too vague". Meanwhile, apparently no one from the DPD could have listened to the original tapes before they went to the FBI except for Lumpkin. No one from the DPD would know whether the audio evidence the FBI returned to the DPD was original, except for Lumpkin.

I'd say Deputy Chief George Lumpkin's connections to various suspects outside the DPD deserve some very careful scrutiny.

Makes sense to me.  But securing the radio dispatch recordings doesn’t seem all that incriminating, at least to me.  After all, the U.S. President had just been assassinated, the Governor of Texas had been wounded, and uniformed city cop murdered, all in the city Lumpkin was empowered to protect.  Impounding of evidence sounds like standard operating procedure.

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Makes sense to me.  But securing the radio dispatch recordings doesn’t seem all that incriminating, at least to me.  After all, the U.S. President had just been assassinated, the Governor of Texas had been wounded, and uniformed city cop murdered, all in the city Lumpkin was empowered to protect.  Impounding of evidence sounds like standard operating procedure.

Jim,

It seems awfully premature to me - after all, at that moment, how did Lumpkin know that no other suspects would be uncovered? Why impound the tapes (!!!) at 5 pm on Friday? I mean, at that time, had the DPD even ascertained "Oswald's" identity for certain, or was he still saying things like "you figure it out" to them?

[Paul Jolliffe]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I’d sure like to know exactly what Lumpkin said to Curry about taking police detectives from Parkland back to Dealey Plaza.  Did he refer directly to the TSBD, or simply to the vicinity of the assassination?
 

According the Charles Batchelor's report to Chief Curry, on page 43 of the link below, Lumpkin referred specifically to the TSBD.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338584/m1/43/?q=PARKLAND

[Joseph McBride]

As I write in INTO THE NIGHTMARE, "Although I could not reach the generally close-mouthed Murray Jackson (who

died in 2012) for an interview, I did manage to talk with his mother, Lura Fern

Jackson, who volunteered a surprising fact. She said that on November 22, her son

was on only his fourth day on duty as a police dispatcher (Mary Ferrell had earlier

told the HSCA that Jackson was in his second day in that position). Was Jackson, a

former partner of Tippit, put into the critical role as dispatcher, wittingly or not, as

part of a plot to manipulate an unsuspecting Tippit, who might trust Jackson more

readily than he would another dispatcher? Or was Tippit himself more witting and

more consciously part of a conspiracy than the Warren Commission would have

us believe? . . ."

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks, Joe.  Whether Tippit’s erstwhile partner was on the dispatcher’s job for two days or four days, it’s yet another of those coincidences in this case that are so hard to view without suspicion.  

I’ve always thought Tippit’s actions after McWatters’ bus passed the GloCo station without “Oswald” getting off indicated he had expected to meet him, but if Joe happens to read this, perhaps he’d talk a bit about what William Mentzel apparently told Marie Tippit, and whether that information would have needed cooperation—or a cover-up—from the dispatcher(s).