EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[David Josephs]

5 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

I don't see where LHO ever addressed his mother as Marguerite.

Curious.

Steve Thomas

I believe you will also find no letters from His mother to Lee in return....  but scores from Lee to Robert

 

 

[John Butler]

From Steve and David's comments one can rationalize the notion that Harvey didn't care much for this mother.  I wonder why?  Lack of parental bonding at an early age?

[David Josephs]

8 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Just as an aside, in looking at this 1959 passport application, did somebody mess up his birth date?

Look at the line just above his picture.

10/28/39.....

and it says “postal m o” at bottom... how he paid maybe?

As I mention, the timing is virtually the same as John and MARGE PITTMAN go to Moscow... 

That section is if children are to be included on the passport....  

and ya know Steve, the mixture of block and cursive always seems to telling to me... you?

[Paul Jolliffe]

10 minutes ago, John Butler said:

From Steve and David's comments one can rationalize the notion that Harvey didn't care much for this mother.  I wonder why?  Lack of parental bonding at an early age?

My guess: "Marguerite" wasn't his real mother, merely a caretaker who had been stuck with him. 

[David Josephs]

4 minutes ago, John Butler said:

From Steve and David's comments one can rationalize the notion that Harvey didn't care much for this mother.  I wonder why?  Lack of parental bonding at an early age?

That woman was not HARVEY’S mother....  Emma Keating the practical nurse house cleaner versus Marge the retail sales lady mother of the natural born Lee Oswald....  

Mr. RANKIN. Now, you have produced a number of letters that you described as being letters received from your son, Lee Oswald, while he was in the Soviet Union. 
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 
Mr. RANKIN. And we have asked you if you could identify the three letters that the Secret Service brought back to you and asked you to give a receipt for. You said it is very difficult, if not impossible, £or you to do that. Is that right? 
Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, I did not say that. I said that one letter I was sure of, because it stated that her uncle was an officer in the Soviet Union. That letter I am sure of. The other two letters--I would have to go through the letters. I think I could spot them, because it would be of importance to our country and the Secret Service to know--in other words, it was important for them to know she had an uncle in the Soviet Union. And the other two letters would be on that order. And I believe maybe I could-I would not want to state a fact that these two letters--I think I would be pretty close to choosing the other two letters as the proper letters. 
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, I wonder if it would be agreeable to you if we would identify all of those letters that you received from your son while he was in the Soviet Union, and then possibly when we recess you could look them over and see---- 
Mrs. OSWALD Yes, sir, that's perfectly all right. 
Mr. RANKIN. See if you can pick out the ones you gave a receipt for. 
Mrs. OSWALD. That is perfectly all right. Any way you want to do it is all right with me. 
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I will ask you to mark them, and Mr. Liebeler. will you help in the marking, because the letters are covered with glassine, and it may be hard to mark them with ink. I think by putting those stickers on we can help you. 
Mrs. OSWALD. Not all of the letters have dates. I think by taking the date on the back of the envelope it would be all right. And we had them in order. I don't know if they are still in order. But we had them by the dates. 
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Reporter, I offer in evidence Exhibits 170 to 179, both inclusive, being pictures of the funeral and the casket that Mrs. Oswald has produced here for the Commission, and ask leave to substitute copies. 
The CHAIRMAN. They may be so introduced. 
(The photographs referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 170 to 179 inclusive for identification, and received in evidence.) 
Mr. RANKIN. I then offer the various letters that Mrs. Oswald produced, that she said were sent to her by her son, Lee Harvey Oswald, from the Soviet Union.

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Interesting.  My take is that there was, on several occasions, an entire phony family established for the “Oswald” set-up.  No doubt Gertrude Hunter, especially, identified Marina, but I’m not sure it was the kind of  observation that would stand up to a deliberate impersonation.  John A. wrote:

When Mrs. Hunter was asked about Marina, whom she saw on television after
the assassination, she seemed less able to identify her. Mrs. Hunter said, "The first
time I seen her, she looked just common, just like she did down there at the store that
day, and I guess it was when they fixed her up--it must have been after the funeral and
she was meeting with these people or something, because it was quite a discussion
about how pretty she was and why she let herself go before, because we had discussed
it that maybe he didn't want her to fix up or something…. She's pretty now. She looked
awful down there in that store."53  [H&L, p. 750]

Do you think it was Marina who also visited KOPY in early October and was seen by several of the other witnesses in and around Alice, Texas?  At that time, Harvey was in Dallas, nearly 400 miles away.

Jim,

I agree with you that the Alice area sightings of the "Oswald" family from early October, 1963 would seem to indicate an impersonation of the "Oswald: family. I think you and I agree that that LHO couldn't be our "Oswald" (Harvey.) And nor is it very likely that the real Marina - 8 months pregnant! - accompanied the impersonator of "Oswald" 400 miles to south Texas. However, since those witnesses were far, far less specific about the Marina they encountered than were Gertrude Hunter and Edith Whitworth, I don't think we can rule it out completely. (Mighty unlikely, but not 100% certain.)

However, as was noted long ago, whatever was going on in south Texas in early October with these apparent LHO family impersonations did not seem to have anything to do with framing "Oswald" for the impending Dallas assassination.

Yet on the other hand, the Furniture Mart early November impersonation directly tied "Oswald" to the rifle - from the Furniture Mart to the Irving Sports Shop to the TSBD. And, unlike the Alice sightings, this 30 minute visit was complete with Marina and both girls in plain view of the two witnesses at very close range. This "Oswald" impersonation was specific and deliberate.

Finally, the Furniture Mart in Irving was only a very short drive from Ruth Paine's house, where, of course, the real Marina and her daughters were living at that very moment!

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/149+W+Irving+Blvd,+Irving,+TX+75060/2515+W+5th+St,+Irving,+TX+75060/@32.8133541,-96.9720617,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x864e836be5f3367d:0xd4a5c56252e40448!2m2!1d-96.9472813!2d32.8140017!1m5!1m1!1s0x864e8391689d1dcf:0x42f4add222437b29!2m2!1d-96.9792875!2d32.8097153!3e0

I believe that the real Marina - unwitting of the impending assassination -  knew and accompanied someone who impersonated her husband on this occasion. It's likely that impostor was the real Lee Harvey Oswald.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Paul Jolliffe

[John Butler]

Lack of parental bonding was my facetious of saying the same things that Paul and David said later.  We'll probably never know who Harvey Oswald was.  The best candidate cannot be connected to Harvey in a firm manner. 

Recently, on this thread the Mrs. Jack Tippit call has been fleshed out more so than in the past.  There has been enough evidence recently shown that one can say with some confidence the call by the mysterious woman to Mrs. Tippit has some credibility. 

Hungarians and others surrounding the communist Emil Gardos may be involved in providing Harvey to the Oswald Project as it came to be called.  But, that can't be said with authority.  It is a good point to make that Marquerite is not the real mother of Harvey and someone else is.  Whether it is someone around Emil Gardos or someone else it fairly certain that Marquerite is not Harvey's mother. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by John Butler

[Steve Thomas]

48 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

On his September, 1959 passport application. LHO identifies Marguerite C. Oswald as his mother

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=108&tab=page

page 78.

How can he forget her name 4 months later in 1960?

 

Just as an aside, in looking at this 1959 passport application, did somebody mess up his birth date?

Look at the line just above his picture.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=108&tab=page

page 77.

 

Steve Thomas

I misspoke earlier.

September 9, 1959 (his passport) and January 4, 1960 (his resident application in Moscow) are only 4 months apart.

That birth date entry on his passport application looks to me like it read 10/25/39 at one time.

 

Also, as an aside, look at the postcard Marguerite (supposedly) sent Lee from Vernon, TX in 1961.

CE 68-B in vol. XVI

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=253&tab=page

page 229

The name of the person sending the postcard has been scratched out.

What's that all about?

 

For a brief, fleeting second I wondered if Margaret Keating Oswald might have been LHO's real mother. I don't have any evidence for this, but is it possible that Robert Edward Lee went back and had an affair with his first wife in early 1939? Margaret and Marguerite both lived in New Orleans.

 

Steve Thomas

[John Kowalski]

18 hours ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

John,

While it is barely possible, I suppose, that little John Gardos grew up to be our "Oswald", I find that extremely unlikely. Simply put, his parents were both living in 1963, yet if John Gardos were posing as "Oswald", that means this little boy had been abandoned by his birth parents at the age of (6? 8? 10? 14?)!!!

Grace Blair Gardos was the mother of John Gardos (as far as we know.) As a parent, I can't conceive of a mother abandoning her child to the custody of strangers in a strange city (NYC) to be raised for some undefined political purpose. If the suggestion is that, well the parents (or at least Emil Gardos, the father) did it out of political expediency or to save his own skin, well again: it just doesn't ring true with what I've seen of the parent/child bond, especially when the kids are little. 

I realize that none of my feelings about this are evidence, but still: any theory that little John Gardos grew up to be our "Oswald" must somehow account for the stunning abandonment by his own living birth parents, especially his own mother.

 

Paul:

More research needs to be done on John Gardos. If he was Harvey, then there should be no evidence that he was alive after Harvey's murder by Jack Ruby on November 24 1963.

Louis Weinstock had a son born in 1929, which makes him 10 years older than Harvey and an unlikely candidate. But Weinstock's obituary states that he is survived by his 2 children, therefore his son can be ruled out as being Harvey.

 

 

[John Kowalski]

17 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Fred KORTH was the lawyer for the plaintiff in the Ekdahl divorce...

That close enough to the ONI for ya?

David:

Fred Korth was ONI, what proof do you have?

[John Butler]

20 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

I misspoke earlier.

September 9, 1959 (his passport) and January 4, 1960 (his resident application in Moscow) are only 4 months apart.

That birth date entry on his passport application looks to me like it read 10/25/39 at one time.

 

Also, as an aside, look at the postcard Marguerite (supposedly) sent Lee from Vernon, TX in 1961.

CE 68-B in vol. XVI

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=253&tab=page

page 229

The name of the person sending the postcard has been scratched out.

What's that all about?

 

For a brief, fleeting second I wondered if Margaret Keating Oswald might have been LHO's real mother. I don't have any evidence for this, but is it possible that Robert Edward Lee went back and had an affair with his first wife in early 1939? Margaret and Marguerite both lived in New Orleans.

 

Steve Thomas

I hope this lightened and sharpened version helps with understanding what Steve is saying.

[Jim Hargrove]

45 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

Paul:

More research needs to be done on John Gardos. If he was Harvey, then there should be no evidence that he was alive after Harvey's murder by Jack Ruby on November 24 1963.

Louis Weinstock had a son born in 1929, which makes him 10 years older than Harvey and an unlikely candidate. But Weinstock's obituary states that he is survived by his 2 children, therefore his son can be ruled out as being Harvey.

Great idea, John!

I did a quick search on a genealogy and newspaper database and found nothing for “John Gardos” after 1963 except for several death notations for “John J. Gardos” who died on July 6, 1985.  Since this John Gardos, however, was born in 1893, he is obviously not our man.

We also need to consider the strong possibility that John Gardos, son of Emil, left the country for good on one of the several times that his father was deported.  I haven’t much expertise in searching Hungarian or Romanian databases. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Jim Hargrove

[John Kowalski]

On 11/26/2019 at 5:32 PM, Paul Jolliffe said:

David,

Absolutely right. That further proves my earlier point that Edwin Ekdahl worked, moved and lived in powerful circles, not only in Texas, but in NYC and Boston. Ekdahl was undoubtedly the key link between Marguerite Oswald's youngest son, Lee, and the east coast establishment spooks who made use of Lee's coincidental resemblance to a recently arrived refugee with some language skills. 

The internet did not exist then, so the only way for U.S. intelligence to spot potential doppelgangers was to actually put eyes on boys who (somewhat) resembled each other. 

Ekdahl would seem to be the only person in a position to notice the resemblance between Lee and "Oswald."

The FBI interviewed Ekdahl's son Dewey. He said that he did not know his father's address for the years 1945 - 1948. Ekdahl married Marguerite in 1945 and if sometime after his marriage the operation began, then this may account for his son not knowing his father's address.

https://ia601400.us.archive.org/16/items/ekdahldeweylho/Ekdahl - Dewey - LHO.pdf

Edited December 10, 2019 by John Kowalski

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Jim,

I agree with you that the Alice area sightings of the "Oswald" family from early October, 1963 would seem to indicate an impersonation of the "Oswald: family. I think you and I agree that that LHO couldn't be our "Oswald" (Harvey.) And nor is it very likely that the real Marina - 8 months pregnant! - accompanied the impersonator of "Oswald" 400 miles to south Texas. However, since those witnesses were far, far less specific about the Marina they encountered than were Gertrude Hunter and Edith Whitworth, I don't think we can rule it out completely. (Mighty unlikely, but not 100% certain.)

However, as was noted long ago, whatever was going on in south Texas in early October with these apparent LHO family impersonations did not seem to have anything to do with framing "Oswald" for the impending Dallas assassination.

Yet on the other hand, the Furniture Mart early November impersonation directly tied "Oswald" to the rifle - from the Furniture Mart to the Irving Sports Shop to the TSBD. And, unlike the Alice sightings, this 30 minute visit was complete with Marina and both girls in plain view of the two witnesses at very close range. This "Oswald" impersonation was specific and deliberate.

Finally, the Furniture Mart in Irving was only a very short drive from Ruth Paine's house, where, of course, the real Marina and her daughters were living at that very moment!

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/149+W+Irving+Blvd,+Irving,+TX+75060/2515+W+5th+St,+Irving,+TX+75060/@32.8133541,-96.9720617,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x864e836be5f3367d:0xd4a5c56252e40448!2m2!1d-96.9472813!2d32.8140017!1m5!1m1!1s0x864e8391689d1dcf:0x42f4add222437b29!2m2!1d-96.9792875!2d32.8097153!3e0

I believe that the real Marina - unwitting of the impending assassination -  knew and accompanied someone who impersonated her husband on this occasion. It's likely that impostor was the real Lee Harvey Oswald.

Paul,

I’ve wondered for many years about the Alice, TX pantomime.  It served, as you say, no discernible purpose whatsoever for framing our patsy-to-be, so why the heck was it done?

My best guess is that it was a mind game, the type of cognitive dissonance you sometimes hear about in intel games.  Little about “Lee Harvey Oswald” makes a bit of sense, so just give up researchers!

I really can’t think of anything else.  Can you?  I’ll have to think some more about the Furniture Mart.

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

Fred Korth was ONI, what proof do you have?

Korth was Sec of the Navy....  one might think he'd be aware of ONI activity related to Oswald given how much he was involved with the Ekdahls and Oswalds...

"Played a part in LEE's Life"....

Maybe I'm just reaching....