EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[David Josephs]

35 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Because "Army" is a general term for the US military

No sir, it is not....   MILITARY is the term for US MILITARY...

I challenge you to find a single MARINE who would say he was an Army Grunt.... or had anything to do with the Army - in the 60's even moreso.

Can I get a Who-ya?

-----

That you would honestly think we believe EVERY SINGLE SIGHTING to be an Oswald-double, or Lee, or Vaganov is the real absurdity... thanks but no thanks WTP....

Your ongoing characterizations of what "Armstrong proponents" do or don't do is a silly generality and again, you know better so please stop feigning ignorance.... k?

42 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

You can go down the list of all the discrepancies in this case and find an alternate explanation for all of them.

With a little intelligence and thought, one can do that in virtually any case buddy.... So now I'd like to know something....

I've admitted and fully accept that 100% of the H&L instances are not H&L... and you admit as well that SOME of the instances are false sightings

48 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Some of the sightings are false, but now you have to decide which ones are and which aren't.

WTP - I've been at this a long time and know exactly which ones are rock solid and which are more speculation (FWIW I realized Lee did not go to Mexico City... doesn't discredit all the other evidence, it simply offers an ALTERNATIVE EXPLANATION for what occurred in Mexico WITH THE INFO AVAILABLE AT THE TIME.

So,

WHICH OF ALL THE H&L EVIDENCE OFFERED DO YOU SEE BEING MOST INDICATIVE OF THERE BEING 2 MEN?
JUST LIKE IT NOT POSSIBLY BEING 100%, IT ALSO CANNOT POSSIBLY BE 0%

SO WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST COMFORT IN SUPPORTING H&L OR AT LEAST PULLS YOU OFF OF 100% SURE IT CANT BE TRUE?

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, David Josephs said:

#2 makes the most sense... WHY? dave asks.... IMO it's to counter his trip to ODIO and his being in DALLAS with Cubans... remember this is BEFORE Phillips/Goodpasture put Ozzie in Mexico... well before the FBI uses Lic. OCHOA to create all the Mexican evidence of the trip....  I get the impression the ALICE OSWALDS were the work of the FBI to CYA for Ozzie's work and being seen by Odio...

It sure would be nice to get some certainty for the reason behind the Alice charade.  I’ve been wondering about that for two decades. Paul Jolliffe speculated that it might have been some leftover rubble (he had an intel word for it that I forget) for framing “Oswald” for a San Antonio or Houston hit on JFK that never materialized.

One of the KOPY witnesses, Stewart, I think, indicated this Oswald said he just got back from Mexico, which seems significant in trying to figure this out. 
 

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

One of the KOPY witnesses, Stewart, I think, indicated this Oswald said he just got back from Mexico, which seems significant in trying to figure this out. 

Phillips had yet to arrive in Mexico - I think it very possible he brings the tapes with him...

I think we can feel pretty sure Oswald did not actually go to Mexico....

So other than these ALICE Oswald's working for Phillips within this charade,,, how do these impostors know about Mexico City before the FBI, STATE or NAVY
when informed by the CIA on the 10th?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

SO WHAT GIVES YOU THE MOST COMFORT IN SUPPORTING H&L OR AT LEAST PULLS YOU OFF OF 100% SURE IT CANT BE TRUE?

 

This scientific proof:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-truth-about-harvey-lee.html

[David Josephs]

Yeah...  I really don't feel like going to your blog from 3 years ago to find your "truth"

Larsen and I showed how the teeth don't match - scientific proof again....

So how about just telling us what you're referring to here WTP...

Which evidence pulls you off your 100% surety there was no H&L

Thanks

[W. Tracy Parnell]

14 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Larsen and I showed how the teeth don't match - scientific proof again....

Amazing the stuff you learn on this site. I had no idea you guys were forensic dentists who had submitted your "proof" to a peer-reviewed journal. I thought you were just a couple of guys, one of whom said he didn't need  training to make such a determination-anybody can do it.

[John Butler]

" I challenge you to find a single MARINE who would say he was an Army Grunt.... or had anything to do with the Army - in the 60's even moreso.

Can I get a Who-ya?"

Absolutely so and without question.  Of all the services the Marines exhibit the most pride.  At least that was my experience in the 60s when I served briefly with and was assigned to look after a small Marine group.  Army infantry guys had it easy compared to Marine duty.

I learned along time ago discussing anything about Harvey and Lee with Parnell is a waste of time.

Edited February 14, 2020 by John Butler

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

The point I've been trying to get across is that 'Harvey and Lee' doctrine is suspiciously vague about whether the facial features of the fictional characters 'Harvey' and 'Lee' were identical or different. Sometimes the faces of the fictional characters are claimed to be so similar that only detailed biometric analysis can tell them apart. At other times the fictional characters are claimed to be easily distinguishable. Which is it?

If the claim is that they were identical, we can rule out the ridiculous notion, central to the 'Harvey and Lee' theory, that two unrelated young boys from different parts of the world were selected for a secret doppelganger project a decade or so before they grew up and their facial features matured.

If the claim is that they were merely similar, it should be easy to tell which is which by looking at the photographic record and identifying which facial features belonged to each of the fictional characters. As far as I'm aware, no 'Harvey and Lee' believer has yet assembled a definitive list of which character had which facial features.

On page 48, Jim brought up the 'Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald' montage of mugshots assembled by Jack "No Planes Hit the World Trade Center" White. The blurb above the images asks, "Why do some photos of him look so different than others?" Really? Do they? Is there anything there that isn't explained by the normal changes that any person undergoes over the years, or by factors such as different poses and different lighting conditions? If so, which facial features are different in which photos?

Which facial features are specific to 'Harvey', and which facial features are specific to 'Lee'?

[Jim Hargrove]

11 hours ago, John Butler said:

" I challenge you to find a single MARINE who would say he was an Army Grunt.... or had anything to do with the Army - in the 60's even moreso.

Can I get a Who-ya?"

Absolutely so and without question.  Of all the services the Marines exhibit the most pride.  At least that was my experience in the 60s when I served briefly with and was assigned to look after a small Marine group.  Army infantry guys had it easy compared to Marine duty.

I learned along time ago discussing anything about Harvey and Lee with Parnell is a waste of time.

That does seem weird, but that whole little autobiography is strange, especially the "my parents are dead, I have no brothers or sisters" phrase.  For the Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald, who John A. suspects might have been a WWII orphan, the statements may well have been true, although certainly running against the plans the H&L controllers made.

Thank you, btw, for the work you've done on the photos.  I don't know much about this stuff, but it does seem to me that even if some of your suspicions about face masks and the like are true, it would be difficult to prove beyond a doubt.  Nevertheless, now you've got me looking for some of the little details you've pointed out in the photos.  

[Jim Hargrove]

15 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Phillips had yet to arrive in Mexico - I think it very possible he brings the tapes with him...

I think we can feel pretty sure Oswald did not actually go to Mexico....

So other than these ALICE Oswald's working for Phillips within this charade,,, how do these impostors know about Mexico City before the FBI, STATE or NAVY
when informed by the CIA on the 10th?

If Phillips had those recordings prepared, he was the worst conspirator on the planet.  What a terrible job.  Did he want the story to fall apart under the slightest scrutiny?

As for the "just got back from Mexico" reference of the KOPY Oswald, that's my point exactly!  At least by October 4, someone must have known about the Mexico City story, don't you think?

[John Butler]

Jim,

Actually, David Josephs said "" I challenge you to find a single MARINE who would say he was an Army Grunt.... or had anything to do with the Army - in the 60's even moreso.

Can I get a Who-ya?"

I was just making a supportive affirmation for David.  My generation of men who served in the Army generally don't hold pride in their service due to the draft.  Those who volunteered for the Army generally do.  The Marines are generally all volunteer.  I have heard of a few cases of folks drafted (probably given the choice) into the Marine Corps.

I have a different take on the Oswald letter you refer to here "That does seem weird, but that whole little autobiography is strange, especially the "my parents are dead, I have no brothers or sisters" phrase.  For the Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald, who John A. suspects might have been a WWII orphan, the statements may well have been true, although certainly running against the plans the H&L controllers made."

I am not disagreeing with you.  Your interpretation is fine with no problems.  It just struck me that some things in those kinds of letters could be code talk.  In one letter Harvey does well with capitalization and makes only one error.  He capitalizes Winter.  No big deal, right?  But, it could be.  In another letter there is a discussion about cans of shaving cream.  One refers (if my memory is working) about a can that was over a year old.  Could be 1 and 1/2 years.  I'm to lazy to go back and look it up.

Anyway, who does that?   So, ""my parents are dead, I have no brothers or sisters"  might be some kind of code.  By using that phrase Harvey might be letting someone know that this is Harvey speaking and not Lee.  Not everyone involved with this project would know what is going on based on the notion of need to know.  This letter referred to is early on in Harvey's visit to the Soviet Union.  Harvey was there first based on his suicide scars.  I suspect Lee was there also but, have no real proof other than some photos and except for one can be interpreted in various ways.  Where Lee was in late 1959 and some parts of 1960 is a bit vague.

Thanks for the compliment.  I generally don't pay much attention to Mr. Bojczuk and Tracy Parnell.  I at least read Parnell for there are interesting points he makes (from his point of view, and not mine) from time to time.

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

John,

I knew you were quoting DJ.

Your conjecture, though, that the no parents and no brothers and sisters remark in the little autobiography was code or some attempt to distinguish himself from the birth LHO is intriguing.  I’ve wondered about this for years.

Harvey Oswald had spent half his life being prepared for the so-called “defection.”  He was clearly under stress when Soviet officials saw through the attempt and ordered him to leave. 

The phony suicide attempt was brilliant; and it worked!  But his stress level was pretty clear from the observations of the medics at Botkinskaya Hospital indicating that he seemed to understand Russian language questions, answered them, and then immediately said he didn’t understand.  He clearly had to make some quick decisions during this operation, and the little “autobiography” may well have been among those made by a young man in a very stressful situation.

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

As for the "just got back from Mexico" reference of the KOPY Oswald, that's my point exactly!  At least by October 4, someone must have known about the Mexico City story, don't you think?

Jim,

If we assume for a moment that David Joseph is right and Oswald did not go to Mexico (at least under the guise of the official story we have been give), then we have to ask, where was he?

If he didn't go to Mexico, then he is "missing" for something like 10 days. Marina has loaded up Ruth Paine's car with all their belongings, and left New Orleans for Dallas in a station wagon. Have they cancelled their rent in New Orleans yet?  Forget about their furniture, does LHO even have a place to live?

I need to back and research his rent situation.

Ruth Paine told the WC that she thought Oswald had gone to either Houston or Philadelphia to look for work.

Did Ruth or Marina ask LHO where he had been for the last 10 days? I don't remember.

You've got Odio and Alice mixed up in there. Maybe he did go to Mexico, but just not for the reasons we have been given, and not by the route that the WC laid out.

How and where is he eating and sleeping?

 

Steve Thomas

[John Butler]

Maybe he went back to Wisconsin to do more life guarding and revisit his Uncle Fred.

[David Josephs]

56 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

If we assume for a moment that David Joseph is right and Oswald did not go to Mexico (at least under the guise of the official story we have been give), then we have to ask, where was he?

He was traveling with 2 men thru Austin to Dallas...arriving there on the 26th.  (he went to the TEC in Dallas on the 26th and 3rd of Oct)

McCluskey said that when he interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald a week later, on October 3, Oswald requested that McCluskey change his address from
P O Box 30061 in New Orleans to 2515 W. 5th Street in Irving, Texas on the Interstate Claims Card. McCluskey remembered that Oswald also asked him to include a post office box number on the card, which he handwrote on the top of the card.

<snip>

McCluskey told Jenner that Oswald's presence in the Dallas TEC Claims Office on September 25-26 and Oct 3 could be verified by reviewing Oswald's Interstate Claims Card..

Here's the bottom of that card....

The FBI was not going to let ODIO ruin their CYA in Mexico City....

She and her sister couldn't have been more sure it was Oswald... especially after the follow-up call giving her the "crazy gringo's" details....

"On or about" - that the FBI fixates on WED the 25th is expected, allows them to add the necessary doubt about it being Oswald....