EVIDENCE FOR HARVEY AND LEE (Please debate the specifics right here. Don't just claim someone else has debunked it!)

[John Butler]

10 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

Does this mean that we were looking at the wrong family? This makes sense because there could be other families with the same name in Yorkville or somewhere nearby.

 

Possibly.  I still have not found any as good at matching the Tippit teletype as Emil, Grace, and Fred.  But, it is a good idea to keep looking because if true this makes 3 Emil Kardos/Gardos in their 30s in 1940 in NYC, Yorkville.  Communists and Yorkville fit the Tippit Teletype.  So, any Kardos/Gardos will need to be a Hungarian immigrant and have info or an attachment to communism.  He will need a son, married or not, about the same age as our duo of Harvey and Lee.

The Emil that married Dorothy Adelhofer said he was a furrier at 18 years of age.  Ben Gold, a radical communist, was head of the Furriers and Leather Workers union at about the same time.  Later he becomes a machine operator and gives up being a furrier. 

Based on my experience when going to college in Bowling Green, Ky, I was always getting a call that should have went to the other two.  And vice versa.  The other John R. Butler was an ambulance driver and I was always getting calls during the middle of the night.  Bowling Green, Ky is a much smaller place then Yorkville, NYC.  So, we can keep looking for more info.  Because of Russ Geck the info on the Emil/Grace family didn't work out as we thought it might. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

19 hours ago, John Butler said:

I still have not found any as good at matching the Tippit teletype as Emil, Grace, and Fred.  But, it is a good idea to keep looking because if true this makes 3 Emil Kardos/Gardos in their 30s in 1940 in NYC, Yorkville.

Wait.  Isn’t it only two Emil Kardos/Gardos in their 30s around 1940?  At that time, the second Emil Kardos was 66 years old, right?  We’re talking about a father and son.  

We certainly agree that, so far at least, Emil Gardos looks like the best candidate and that this is all a very strange coincidence.  Looking at the historic data linked in the e-version of Doppelganger, which for some reason is ordered by given names rather than surnames, it appears that “Emil” is not at all a common given name.

One possible explanation for all this is that the FBI decided to take advantage of this remarkable coincidence to hide any possible connection of the Lone Nut® to commies.  Recall that, according to Earl Warren, LBJ said he was afraid communists were behind the assassination and that a real investigation could lead to World War III (not in those exact words, of course).

But this analysis hardly explains the original coincidence. Are there other explanations?

John Kowalski’s work tracking down Tina Tippit Brown and discovering that she still had original notes of the anonymous phone calls may be our best bet at trying to figure this out.  Mrs. Brown’s work settling her late husband’s estate is certainly understandable, but I can hardly wait to see if those notes can be read by researchers.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

20 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Went to Amazon to read some reviews about "The JFK Assassination and the Uncensored Story of the Two Oswalds."

Most of them are favourable and one of them said that it was easier to read than Harvey and Lee. Looks like this one could be the one that presents John's story in a format that is easier to read and understand. There was one negative comment about the author's digressions into other subjects like the New World Order etc. that according to the reviewer taints the rest of the serious JFK research community.

I also read that comment about the various conspiracy theories in Pat Shannan’s book, and that is probably going to make it impossible for me to recommend it, out of respect for John A’s opinions if nothing else.

During several phone conversations, John told me how much it bothered him that Jack White veered off on topics such as the fake moon landings, contrails, etc.  John felt Jack was just making it easier for critics to mock the H&L analysis and ignore the bulk of the evidence.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Jim Hargrove

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Wait.  Isn’t it only two Emil Kardos/Gardos in their 30s around 1940?  At that time, the second Emil Kardos was 66 years old, right?  We’re talking about a father and son.  

There is a possibility of 3 young Emils in their 30s.  We have in 1940-1941 Census and marriage indexes the following:

1.  Emil Gardos and wife Grace, Grace Blair- Married abt. 1934

2.  Emil Kardos and wife Dorothy, Dorothy Adelhofer- Married 1941 (No. 2)

3.  Emil Kardos and wife Helen, Helen Kaminski- Married 1941 (No.3 ?)

Emil No. 2 is in the 1940 Census.  We didn't find a second one, No. 3,  in the 1940 Census.

At one time the name Emil seems to have been popular about the turn of the 20th Century.  But, altogether not that popular over time.  Being popular around the turn of the last century would give us more Emils born around 1900 to about 1915.  The two Emils I am sure of were born around 1905.   I would of thought Emil was a popular name for folks of Slavic, perhaps Jewish descent. 

Two Hungarian immigrants name Emil Kardos/Gardos coming to the US in roughly the same time is suspicious if one really hasn't done a lot of genealogy work.  The possibility of someone having the same name in the same area is common through out time and place in genealogy.  Yorkville was not a small village or even a small town.  And, probably not a small city.   

Popularity Over Time: How Many Boys Have Been Named Emil

This chart illustrates how many Boys were named Emil in the U.S. since 1880.

A few facts about the boy's name Emil:

 

• Records indicate that 28,501 boys in the United States have been named Emil since 1880.

The possibility of a 3rd Emil is based on the marriage of Emil Kardos and Helen Kaminski.  I don't at this time have any info on this Emil except the marriage record.

I suppose Emil Kardos No.2 could have married two women in one year.  It's possible.  I've had the wife look at this and she found nothing to relate to a third Emil.  I suppose some of the things I have credited to the Emil No. 2 could fit Emil No. 3, but I don't think so.

Best conclusion on this is two Emil Kardos.  Emil Gardos (originally Kardos) and the other, No. 2, Emil Kardos.  And, there is no connection between the two is the most likely conclusion.  This is based on No. 2 making no waves in Communist Yorkville even though he live very close to the Yorkville Club.

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John Kowalski’s work tracking down Tina Tippit Brown and discovering that she still had original notes of the anonymous phone calls may be our best bet at trying to figure this out.  Mrs. Brown’s work settling her late husband’s estate is certainly understandable, but I can hardly wait to see if those notes can be read by researchers.

Me too. She is my calendar to contact her. When I do her notes will be my top priority.

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

During several phone conversations, John told me how much it bothered him that Jack White veered off on topics such as the fake moon landings, contrails, etc.  John felt Jack was just making it easier for critics to mock the H&L analysis and ignore the bulk of the evidence.

Jack White is one of my heroes.  But, he had feet of clay.  Some of the things he knew and didn't say until later leaves me with reservations.  Why didn't he speak about Bothun and Altgens earlier.  Jim Marrs is another I consider a hero.  He wrote a book on Aliens in which the data was mostly witness interviews of abductions and such.  The book was not at all like Crossfire.

As far as fake moon landings, there are far more people who are disposed to believe that than one would think.  Marrs and White approached their subjects critically.  But, all they did was set themselves up for ridicule and disbelief in other areas by the propagandists of the Lone Nut variety.

 

[John Butler]

9 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

Me too. She is my calendar to contact her. When I do her notes will be my top priority.

Keep up the good work.  I, like Jim, will be interested in your obtaining those notes if possible.

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I also read that comment about the various conspiracy theories in Pat Shannan’s book, and that is probably going to make it impossible for me to recommend it, out of respect for John A’s opinions if nothing else.

So, one can still say that Doppelgander by Schimmer is still the best book for an easy read on Harvey and Lee. 

[John Kowalski]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

During several phone conversations, John told me how much it bothered him that Jack White veered off on topics such as the fake moon landings, contrails, etc.  John felt Jack was just making it easier for critics to mock the H&L analysis and ignore the bulk of the evidence.

I remember Jack White's analysis of the back yard photos. It was amazing. When he began questioning the moon landings I was very disappointed. Before he questioned then, I saw him as an historical researcher investigating Kennedy's assassination. After that I saw him a a conspiracy theorist. These are people who believe that the moon landing was fake, the Illuminati and that, as Jim Fetzer stated, no one died at Sandy Hook. Sadly, the media lumps serious Kennedy assassination researchers in with conspiracy theorists.

[John Kowalski]

Has anyone done any research about what happened to the real Marguerite?

[John Butler]

2 minutes ago, John Kowalski said:

Has anyone done any research about what happened to the real Marguerite?

As far as I know Marguerite Claverie just disappears.  I'm not certain of the time period, but Jim should be able to provide.

I read somewhere, but can't quote where, that the real Marguerite said she was going to disappear.  I'm not certain of this.  I'm just recalling this as something I read.

[Jim Hargrove]

21 hours ago, John Kowalski said:

Has anyone done any research about what happened to the real Marguerite?

 

21 hours ago, John Butler said:

As far as I know Marguerite Claverie just disappears.  I'm not certain of the time period, but Jim should be able to provide.

I read somewhere, but can't quote where, that the real Marguerite said she was going to disappear.  I'm not certain of this.  I'm just recalling this as something I read.

John B's recollection of real Marguerite saying she was going to disappear doesn't ring a bell with me, but I can say that the real Marguerite seems to pretty much disappear from what’s left of the public record around 1959, which makes sense since that is the year Harvey “defected.”  From at least that point on, the official record is all about the Marguerite impostor and the LHO impostor.  

There are clues, though, from two friends of the real Marguerite that suggest she may have moved back to New Orleans and worked in two department stores in the very early 1960s.  Unless I’m forgetting something, after that there is not a trace of her.

From John’s write-up in the Two Marguerite Oswalds page at our website:

In the Spring of 1958 Marguerite Claverie Oswald left Paul's Shoe Store and began working for Family Publications. In the fall she began working for Cox's Dept Store, 7th & Throckmorton, where she had previously worked in the early 1950s, under the supervision of Mrs. Lowell Hopkins.  An FBI report indicates that in 1963 Mrs. Hopkins said that "after seeing Mrs. Oswald's picture in the newspaper and on television, she could not say that she recognized the picture as being Mrs. Oswald because, in her opinion, there has been a great deal of change in her physical appearance."The 1958 Fort Worth City Directory still listed her address as 3830 W. 6th. A year later, in the summer of 1959, Marguerite Claverie Oswald quit Cox's Dept Store and moved to New Orleans. Once again she obtained employment with Kriegers Dept. Store and Goldrings. Mrs. Logan Magruder, who had known Marguerite since 1943, saw and talked with her at Kriegers. When interviewed in 1964 Mrs. Magruder old the FBI that she met and visited with Marguerite, "about three years ago." Mrs. Oris Duane, who used to be Marguerite's supervisor at Jean's Hosiery shop in New Orleans, was interviewed by the FBI in 1964. She told the FBI that "3 or 4 years ago" (circa 1960-1961) Marguerite stopped by Lady Oris Hosiery where Mrs. Duane was store manager. Marguerite told Mrs. Duane that she was working at Goldrings Dept Store selling dresses on the 2nd floor. These two women, long time friends of Marguerite Claverie Oswald, place the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald in New Orleans in the early 1960s. The FBI now had information that Marguerite (Claverie) Oswald was working at Goldrings and Krieger's Dept. Stores in the early 1960's. To confirm her dates of employment the FBI only needed to secure employment records from Goldrings and Krieger's Dept Stores and interview management and co-workers. The FBI could also have obtained cancelled payroll checks from Goldrings and Kriegers as well as state income tax records from the State of Louisiana. But if the FBI had conducted an honest investigation concerning Marguerite Claverie Oswald's employment in Ft. Worth and New Orleans from 1956 thru 1963, those records would have conflicted with the Marguerite Oswald impostor's various residences and employment in New Orleans and Texas at the same time. Local FBI agents thoroughly investigated Marguerite Claverie Oswald's employment from the early 1940's thru the mid 1950's. They interviewed employers, co-workers, and beginning and ending dates of her employment. But in 1956 their investigation of Marguerite Claverie Oswald and her employment ended, because their investigation was now focused on the Marguerite Oswald impostor.

[Jim Hargrove]

22 hours ago, John Butler said:

There is a possibility of 3 young Emils in their 30s.  We have in 1940-1941 Census and marriage indexes the following:

1.  Emil Gardos and wife Grace, Grace Blair- Married abt. 1934

2.  Emil Kardos and wife Dorothy, Dorothy Adelhofer- Married 1941 (No. 2)

3.  Emil Kardos and wife Helen, Helen Kaminski- Married 1941 (No.3 ?)

Emil No. 2 is in the 1940 Census.  We didn't find a second one, No. 3,  in the 1940 Census.

Thank you for spelling this out for the slower members of this discussion.  The real question mark here seems to be the Emil Kardos who married Helen Kaminski in 1941.  If memory serves, that marriage record comes from a Doppelganger link, correct?  If that is so, I can't remember if there is evidence that this is an NYC or NY state record.  Do you recall?

Is it possible that one Emil Kardos was married twice in the same year?  Seems unlikely, but this whole situation seems weird.

During a phone conversation yesterday, John A. told me that he can't figure out where Harvey Oswald was living from 1947 to 1952.  We might therefore consider these years, rather than earlier ones, for Harvey living in NYC.  This, of course, opens up the possibility of brothers-in-law Emil Kardos as well as Emil Gardos while Harvey was in NYC.

One more important point about the commie angle suggested by the anonymous caller.  As John A. wrote on our website:

During the summer of 1943 Rubenstein (Ruby) attended the first of several communist party meetings on the third floor of a commercial building located at Walnut Street between Charles and Jackson in Muncie, Indiana.

This suggests that even back in 1943 Ruby was working as some sort of government informant infiltrating communist meetings.  For more on this, see The Bare Facts About Jack Ruby, starting in about the fourth paragraph down. 

[John Butler]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thank you for spelling this out for the slower members of this discussion.  The real question mark here seems to be the Emil Kardos who married Helen Kaminski in 1941.  If memory serves, that marriage record comes from a Doppelganger link, correct?  If that is so, I can't remember if there is evidence that this is an NYC or NY state record.  Do you recall?

I found the info on Helen Kaminski and Emil Kardos marriage through a genealogy site.  I believe the Doppelganger Emil Kardos is No. 2.

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Is it possible that one Emil Kardos was married twice in the same year?  Seems unlikely, but this whole situation seems weird.

I suggested this earlier, but discounted it.  The reason for discounting this double marriage idea is there are records of Dorothy Adehofer and Emil Kardos up to 1955 in New Rochelle, NY.

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

During a phone conversation yesterday, John A. told me that he can't figure out where Harvey Oswald was living from 1947 to 1952.  We might therefore consider these years,

David Joseph has where Harvey was well tracked and documented during this time period in this Excel timeline of Harvey and Lee.  His first record of Harvey is a school entry for July 7, 1947 at the Benbrook school in San Saba, TX.

I don't understand Mr. Armstrong's remark about not knowing where Harvey was living between 1947 and 1952.

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

One more important point about the commie angle suggested by the anonymous caller.  As John A. wrote on our website:

During the summer of 1943 Rubenstein (Ruby) attended the first of several communist party meetings on the third floor of a commercial building located at Walnut Street between Charles and Jackson in Muncie, Indiana.

This was before the Red Scare era.  Ruby was not a communist, so this must be an FBI activity, or possibly an OSS/FBI operation.  I believe that there was more cooperation between the two agencies than is admitted.  During this period they were supposed to be in conflict/competition. 

At a later time (the Red Scare era) Ruby was recommended by I think LBJ efforts to work for Richard Nixon.  The recommendation to work for Richard Nixon may have been based on this commie activity in 1943.   According two your link to Ruby info he also worked for the drug enforcement people.

Even going back this far to the early 1940s and 1943 Ruby was a government agent.  And, an important one.  Jack Ruby was more than a wannabe thug and gangster.  He was a mid-level fixer and enforcer for various mob folks.

Edited April 14, 2020 by John Butler

[John Kowalski]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John B's recollection of real Marguerite saying she was going to disappear doesn't ring a bell with me, but I can say that the real Marguerite seems to pretty much disappear from what’s left of the public record around 1959, which makes sense since that is the year Harvey “defected.”  From at least that point on, the official record is all about the Marguerite impostor and the LHO impostor.  

Disappearing in 1959 would make sense because the Soviets would have used their US assets to investigate Harvey's background. They would do this because they knew about false identities as they did the same thing with Gordon Lonsdale.

There are questions that still have to be answered about the real Marguerite. How did she disappear, did she leave eventually New Orleans and change her name? After the newspapers reported Harvey's defection, people in New Orleans who knew her and her son would have questions for her. How would she answer them? What did she do when Harvey made it to the front page of every newspaper in the country when he was accused of killing Kennedy? When the newspapers published Harvey's biography, which matched hers, how did she deny that it was her son?

It would be possible that after the assassination that the CIA would have moved her to a place where she was not know and changed her name. This would prevent people from asking her questions.