The Irishman: A Crushing Disappointment

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks David and Ron.

If i recall correctly, Puzo had tried to write good novels before.  But they didn't sell.  So he deliberately wrote a piece of pulp, thinking it would sell.

I did not know if was a film treatment first.

It makes perfect sense that Evans would have marketed the book as some kind of serious novel and exploration of the Mafia.  Which had been done already by Joe Valachi.

I agree with David.  Evans and Coppola got that low key lighting arty look by Gordon Willis , and Dean Tavoularis did a really nice job on the production design. And that gave it a sheen of artiness. To show how bad film criticism has become these days this middle brow confection was voted in the 2002 Sight and Sound poll as one of the ten best films ever.  That poll used to be a valuable gauge of critical respectability,  for about four decades.  Anyone who can put Godfather on that list is a hack.  And there are a lot of hacks out there today practicing criticism; many of them don't even know what it is.

Edited December 5, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[David Andrews]

Then I am a hack, because I respect achievement in multifarious forms.

I agree with you about the book, but amid the garbage and bad prose, Coppola found the through line of a family saga, and that homely aspect appealed to people, especially, I think, the descendants of immigrants.  He saved the darkest family musings for Part II, a story he could control more closely.  And people found a nostalgie de la boue in that, because every family is darker than we let on.  Yet, of course, better than other people's families, who all deserve to be assassinated.  These pictures tapped into a vein.

It's like I wrote here once: Would we love the Kennedys less, or more, if, like the Corleones, they hit their enemies first?

Edited December 5, 2019 by David Andrews

[Rob Couteau]

On 12/4/2019 at 7:11 PM, James DiEugenio said:

If i recall correctly, Puzo had tried to write good novels before

Jim, That is correct. Puzo even took a creative-writing course with Brom Weber at the New School, and one of the other students in his class was Jack Kerouac. (This is chronicled in the Kerouac biography "Memory Babe," by Gerald Nicosia). Puzo's initial goal was to achieve recognition as a serious, literary novelist. I saw an interview with Puzo, post-"Godfather" (I believe with Larry King) in which he said that he was so exhausted from trying to make it as a serious writer and failing economically that he decided to try to write something for money, hence "The Godfather." He bemoaned the fact that he was unable to afford a vacation for most of his life or to properly support his family until then, so he purposely switched gears. "The Godfather" is clearly and without doubt a piece of pulp or "commercial fiction," and it was fashioned like that intentionally. 

[David Andrews]

2 minutes ago, Rob Couteau said:

 I saw an interview with Puzo, post-"Godfather" (I believe with Larry King) in which he said that he was so exhausted from trying to make it as a serious writer and failing economically that he decided to try to write something for money, hence "The Godfather." He bemoaned the fact that he was unable to afford a vacation for most of his life or to properly support his family until then, so he purposely switched gears.

Plus those gambling debts, which make every litterateur feel like Dostoevsky.

[Rob Couteau]

On 12/4/2019 at 8:42 PM, David Andrews said:

Plus those gambling debts, which make every litterateur feel like Dostoevsky.

Ha - I was just going to add: "As David mentioned, Puzo was known to be a gambler, so maybe if he spent less time and money at the race track, or wherever he lost his dough, things might have been different." ("I could have been a contender"?) I don't recall him mentioning the debts to Larry King, and since King rarely does any homework he wouldn't have known to ask him about that.

[David Andrews]

23 minutes ago, Rob Couteau said:

Ha - I was just going to add: "As David mentioned, Puzo was known to be a gambler, so maybe if he spent less time and money at the race track, or wherever he lost his dough, things might have been different." ("I could have been a contender"?) I don't recall him mentioning the debts to Larry King, and since King rarely does any homework he wouldn't have known to ask him about that.

Puzo wrote about the gambling and the Godfather solution in a post-film book of essays and collected magazine pieces called The Godfather Papers, which must have made him feel like Norman Mailer.  The film treatment payoff is recounted by Robert Evans:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2003/jan/24/artsfeatures.johnpatterson

I shouldn't b*tch so much about Puzo - like Homer in The Iliad, he pointed the way to the nobility and humanity in low deeds.  Plus he made my grandmother happy with Pete Clemenza's cooking lesson: "Then you shove in your salsice and your meatballs, add a little more wine...."

Edited December 5, 2019 by David Andrews

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Rob.

And this is my argument.  See, you cannot dress up a pulp novel and then somehow say that because you used dark photography and lush settings, with a Great Actor in the title role, that somehow, that transforms the hackneyed story into the rank of a great film.  As Stanley Kauffman said of the film:  it contains so much of the commonplace, it avoids being called common place.  And if I recall correctly, Evans made Coppola make it longer to somehow give it the illusion of depth. 

As anyone who knows cinema will tell you, real cinematic invention or stylization can elevate a rather uninspired story to a higher plane.  For me a good example of this is what RIchard Lester did in Petulia, one of the criminally underrated films of the seventies.  Another example would be Malick's Badlands.  Coppola did not do that with Godfather.  Not even close.  More of something does not mean its better.

For me, the best Coppola film is easily The Conversation.  The absolute lunacy of the Oscars is this:  Art Carney, at best a sketch performer, won the Oscar that year for best actor.  Gene Hackman, who I think gave what is probably his finest performance ever in that film, did not get nominated. One of the reasons I do not watch that program anymore.

In The Conversation, Coppola really did use some cinema invention and real imagination.  The last scene in that movie is almost a modern painting about isolation.  The scene where Hackman walks up on the MBZ with the camera tracking with him and sees CIndy Williams in the back seat is just about perfect.  And the the audio flashback: He'd kill US if he could.  With seven words he turns the whole film upside down.

The reason I think that film is so good is that it was inspired by Antonioni's masterpiece Blow Up. And from what I understand, he wrote it before Watergate. Coppola is really proud of that film, as he should be.

Edited December 5, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[David Andrews]

Jim, you're missing the boat here.  People adored the thing - twice - and it's so easy to see why when all is viewed synergistically.

BTW, I could make a list of all the allusions to, and influences of, the JFKA on, Part I and Part II.  But I'm going to beg off for now so I can finish watching Ad Astra.  Talk about low material!

I love Petulia, but is it not the triumph of style over substance, as cliche-mongers used to say?

Edited December 5, 2019 by David Andrews

[Denny Zartman]

On 12/4/2019 at 3:07 PM, Ron Ecker said:

One is when Sonny beats up his brother-in-law. He slugs him with a roundhouse to the jaw, the only problem being that the punch hits nothing but air by almost a foot. (Coppola: Well, maybe no one will notice.)

I never fail to wince during that scene. That punch looks so bad.

[Denny Zartman]

I watched The Irishman on Netflix just before Thanksgiving. I'll write my reactions in a separate post. I wanted to cross-post the notes I took when reading the book I Heard You Paint Houses. This was meant to focus solely upon the JFK revelations:

“I Heard You Paint Houses” by Charles Brandt 2016 paperback edition.

JFK Revelations from Frank “The Irishman” Sheeran

Frank Sheeran, a labor union official, worked for Russell Bufalino, (Mafia boss of the Northeastern Pennsylvania Bufalino family from 1959 to 1989) and labor union leader Jimmy Hoffa. Sheeran had a criminal career from 1945 to 1975, including multiple murders. Sheeran claims to have murdered Hoffa in 1975.

Pg. 119 – Sheeran says he met Jack Ruby several times. Sheeran says that he saw Ruby in the company of Sam Giancana (the boss of the Mafia’s Chicago Outfit from 1957–1966), and Paul “Red” Dorfman (the head of the Chicago Waste Handler's Union and a member of the Chicago Outfit.)

Pgs. 128 – 129 – Sheeran describes meeting Carlos Marcello’s (Mafia boss of New Orleans) pilot David Ferrie (initially the central figure in New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison’s 1966 JFK investigation.) Sheeran says that some time before the 1961 failed Bay Of Pigs invasion of Cuba he was told by Hoffa to drive a truck to Baltimore, Maryland, and meet Ferrie at a landing strip at the Harry C. Campbell concrete plant. A group of soldiers loaded military uniforms, weapons, and ammunition onto Sheeran's truck and Sheeran drove the weapons to Orange Grove, Florida. According to Sheeran, Ferrie told him to deliver the weapons to E. Howard Hunt., even describing Hunt’s large ears. Sheeran says he delivered the weapons to Hunt and a group of anti-Castro Cubans.

Pgs 162 – 163 – Sheeran says that a few days before the JFK assassination he was told by Russell Bufalino to go to a restaurant in New York, New York. At the restaurant Sheeran was given a duffel bag of what he assumed to be rifles and was instructed to take the bag to David Ferrie at the concrete plant landing strip in Baltimore, Maryland. Sheeran says that he did as instructed, delivering the bag to Ferrie and another man that Sheeran declined to name but recognized as a member of New York’s Genovese crime family.

Pgs 241-242 – Sheeran claims that in October 1974 Jimmy Hoffa gave Sheeran more details about Sheeran’s November 1963 mission to Baltimore, Maryland. Hoffa allegedly told Sheeran:
- The duffel bag contained high powered rifles intended for the JFK assassination
- The rifles were replacements for rifles that were in the trunk of a Ford Thunderbird that was totaled in a drunk driving accident
- Ferrie was delivering the replacement rifles
- Actual police officers, and conspirators posing as police officers, were part of the assassination
- Policemen friends of Jack Ruby were originally intended to kill Oswald, but somehow Ruby “bungled” it, and had to take care of Oswald himself
- Ruby feared being tortured and murdered if he failed to kill Oswald
- Mob bosses Carlos Marcello, Sam Giancana, and Santo Trafficante Jr. (Mafia boss of Florida
and Cuba) were involved in the assassination
- Says that all the conspirators were also involved in the Bay Of Pigs

Pgs 332 – 335 – Author Charles Brandt questions Sheeran about why so many people were
involved in the killing of Jimmy Hoffa. Sheeran responds that it is essentially a precautionary
measure for the assassins. A single assassin would themselves be killed after the assassination
just to keep things quiet, but when multiple assassins are used in a hit, the conspirators are not
likely to have all the assassins killed.

[Denny Zartman]

I didn't hate it, but Goodfellas remains the quintessential gangster movie. I thought DeNiro did some good acting in a few effective scenes. The de-aging didn't bother me. I thought it looked fine. It was nice to see Joe Pesci again after so long.

But like I said, Goodfellas has such spark and life in it, and then accelerates into the final act. In contrast, The Irishman is often quiet, and gets even quieter in the third act. That's not necessarily a bad thing in concept: it is a meditation on non-violent mortality in contrast to the adrenaline and cocaine fueled climax of Goodfellas. But when I want to sit down and much some popcorn and chill in front of the screen, Goodfellas is the movie I would turn to to deliver the goods rather than The Irishman.

-

About The Godfather, I have mixed feelings. The book is pulpy and not very well-written. "He's a real 90 caliber, he's a real pezzonovante, he's a real 90 caliber pezzonovante!",  The same could be said for the novels Jaws and Psycho, though. Still, it's kind of a miracle that the film turned out as well as it did. Michael's exile to Italy is a huge momentum killer, and Coppola deserves credit for keeping it and managing not to totally kill the pace of the story. I don't think it's a bad movie. @Joe Bauer and @James DiEugenio both make good and valid observations. I think it's very well produced, some of the acting is terrific, and it's certainly telling a wide-ranging story. There are many iconic lines and images, and of course the music.

My schism is even greater on The Godfather Part II. I think all the prequel scenes are amazing. Awesome storytelling, effective, economical, and with even more lavish cinematography and production value. That part of the movie rocks and is better than the original Godfather. The stuff that is set after the events of the first film, I have NEVER been able to manage to be interested in. It seemed to be so many shots of going to Miami and having meetings. No matter how many times I watch the film, I just can't get into it.

Godfather Part III, I try to pretend didn't happen.

Back in the day they had a cut called The Godfather Saga, which was the first two films edited into chronological order. That was pretty cool.

[David Andrews]

It's "To each his own" territory.  Michael's sit-downs with Hyman Roth in Miami and Havana, and his Machiavellian confrontation of Joe Pentangelli at the Corleones' old family home (from the first picture) really rock for me, as do the performances of seasoned stage actors Michael V. Gazzo and Lee Strasberg as Pentangelli and Roth.  (Pacino brought in Strasberg, and I'm betting Gazzo as well.)  Mob life is made out of sit-downs for which the participants are grateful if the substance is merely boring.  In Godfather Part II, they're used for splendid dramatic effect.

It's all about buildup.  One of the great things in Nino Rota's musical scores for the two pictures is the "tolling bell" effect, that repeated piano note sounding like a bell striking for the dead that occurs a few minutes before all hell breaks loose, as a visceral signal.  Listen for that when the buildup scenes reach their tipping points.  As the novelist Robert Stone once wrote, "'It tolls for thee, m*********er!'"  Coppola uses Rota's "tolling" for great emotional resonance.

You can hear a muted version of the tolling bell in this scene from The Godfather when Michael arrives at the hospital, and later when he goes out on the front steps with Enzo the baker.  It's done more forcefully in several other scenes in both films that I can't locate on YouTube:

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by David Andrews

[Douglas Caddy]

Accused of Killing a Gambino Mob Boss, He’s Presenting a Novel Defense

Anthony Comello is obsessed with conspiracy theories. His paranoia is being a litigated in a Staten Island court.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/06/nyregion/gambino-shooting-anthony-comello-qanon.html

 

[Has this latter-day mobster developed a new criminal defense strategy?]

[Joseph McBride]

Billy Wilder said that THE GODFATHER PART II is one of the five best movies

ever made in America. I agree with him.

[John Kowalski]

Saw a documentary about Hoffa's life and disappearance. It does not agree with Sheerhan's account.  It  mentions his book and states that he released it without his claim about his role in Hoffa's demise and it didn't do so well so he released again and added his alleged role in Hoffa's disappearance and this helped book sales.

The title is: WDIV’s Steve Garagiola investigates the notorious labor leader’s disappearance and was shown on WDIV Detroit

https://www.clickondetroit.com/features/2019/12/04/watch-local-4-hoffa-primetime-special-tonight-at-10-pm/