David Josephs Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 I have been able to find 2 documents showing 4 different serial numbers of the rifles sent to the FBI... C250/CE542 is the most famous as it's the one Frazier testifies about being so identical to CE139 - but we are never told the serial number. Does anyone have information regarding these rifles the FBI somehow secured? Does anyone have information regarding what became of the "LEFTOVER INVENTORY" from the 99 remaining rifles in that lot? Has ANYONE, ANYWHERE ever seen a Fucile Corto rifle with any one of the other 99 serial numbers? They were advertised from April 1963 until Nov 1963...??? If the February 21, 1963 order contained 100 different rifles than those listed on Scibor's master list, how would we know? For to me it sure looks like the space behind these notations is BLANK while the rest of the page has lines and artifacts of copying... Hmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Murr Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Hi David: I have written about this specific instance of alleged FBI acquisition of MC/FC rifles, alleged "duplicate" of the similarly alleged assassination weapon, in my forthcoming work on the true history of the WCC 6.5mm ammunition. I will send you a private message shortly with what I have discovered concerning the various serial numbers. This issue is rather murky and involves a memorandum originally constructed by Robert Frazier in December of 1963, a memo that eventually carries a Frazier handwritten notation of "Not sent" but a memo that he eventually did send to Ivan Conrad in June of 1964. Part of your inability to potentially discover the serial numbers of rifles acquired by the FBI from Kleins via the Chicago FO is that some of this documentation is in a folder in an FBI bulky serial file that as far as I know is not available anywhere online - i.e. via Mary Ferrell website or others. One specific example is found in 62-109060-8307X, Part 1, Box 109, Folder number 16. As indicated, I will send some of what I have in my manuscript along to you via a private email/message. Gary Murr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Murr Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Apologies for the stroke through s, David; this always seems to happen to me and I don't know why. Hopefully you can still read what I have written. If not, my private message to you will be arriving shortly. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 7, 2019 Author Share Posted November 7, 2019 I read your message and replied... Much of that info is in the Armstrong notebook I reference in my reply. Bottom line though, not one of the other 99 rifles has ever been seen... Century bought 700 of these same EXACT rifles InterArmco also supplied KLEINS with weapons and was basically the CIA with a cutout. SIDEM bid against ADAMS and Interarmco for these rifles... but not one word about them. WALDMAN claimed they removed the remaining stock of CE-139 like rifles from inventory on Monday the 25th... You telling me the FBI was not in a position to get one of these other 99 rifles (or however many were left) ... and/or they realized these rifles were NOT SCOPED... only the 36" TS rifles were for this special. page 7 is the HSCA summary of the SHARP interview... FWIW... Century Arms in Montreal also provided SEAPORT the pistol... which eventually winds up on WESTBROOK's desk... the man in charge of PERSONNEL... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 (edited) On 11/7/2019 at 12:42 PM, David Josephs said: I read your message and replied... Much of that info is in the Armstrong notebook I reference in my reply. Bottom line though, not one of the other 99 rifles has ever been seen... Century bought 700 of these same EXACT rifles InterArmco also supplied KLEINS with weapons and was basically the CIA with a cutout. SIDEM bid against ADAMS and Interarmco for these rifles... but not one word about them. WALDMAN claimed they removed the remaining stock of CE-139 like rifles from inventory on Monday the 25th... You telling me the FBI was not in a position to get one of these other 99 rifles (or however many were left) ... and/or they realized these rifles were NOT SCOPED... only the 36" TS rifles were for this special. page 7 is the HSCA summary of the SHARP interview... FWIW... Century Arms in Montreal also provided SEAPORT the pistol... which eventually winds up on WESTBROOK's desk... the man in charge of PERSONNEL... Your first sentence threw me. "'Two documents showing Four different serial numbers of the rifleS (!) sent to the FBI." It's now much clearer. Oswald was part of the gun running/mailing of guns investigation by the government at the time. What was the Senator's name behind it? From Virginia? Edited November 9, 2019 by Ron Bulman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Murr Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 Hi Ron: I believe what you are referencing/inquiring about here was the Senate subcommittee chaired by Senator Thomas J. Dodd. This committee was set up to investigate mail-order gun business and initially held hearings from January to May of 1963. Both firms that Oswald allegedly ordered weapons from were investigated by this Committee. Dodd hired investigators to sample the market in mail-order guns. If you are interested in further exploring this issue see: U. S. Congress, Senate Subcommittee to Investigate Juvenile Delinquency of the Senate Judiciary; Hearings to Study the Interstate Traffic in Mail-Order Firearms. 88th Congress, 2nd Session, 1963, in particular p. 3596ff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 9, 2019 Author Share Posted November 9, 2019 (edited) After the assassination, Dodd, using CIA sources, helped the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee publish a story that Oswald had been trained at a KGB assassination school in Minsk. At the time, Dodd was on the payroll of the American Security Council, "the leading public group campaigning to use U.S. military force to oust Castro from Cuba, and to escalate the war in Vietnam." http://www.famoustexans.com/leeharveyoswald.htm edit: THIS LINK SEEMS TO HAVE EXPIRED... https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/Vtlg6NPbbQQ THE 2ND LINK JUST TAKES YOU TO THE QUOTED MATERIAL IN A POST BY Sam McClung WITH THE SAME LINK AS MY ORIGINAL ONE Seems to me, most all his activities that seemed "intel-like" had the dual purposes of infiltrating the desired groups, yet also incriminate Oswald for his activities and connections... SOMEONE created that Money Order SOMEONE put THAT rifle on the 6th floor SOMEONE made sure we'd only ever see C2766 and not one of the other 99 rifles... So we must ask ourselves, if the idea was to place a rifle into Oswald's hands, why is there not a single report about Oswald and his weapons prior to 11/22? Edited February 28, 2023 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 David - I’m bumping this because I tried the link to Famous Texans and got a very scary message from Apple Security claimin my computer was locked for security reasons, providing a phone number for me to call, which I didn’t. Any idea what’s going on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Paul Brancato said: David - I’m bumping this because I tried the link to Famous Texans and got a very scary message from Apple Security claimin my computer was locked for security reasons, providing a phone number for me to call, which I didn’t. Any idea what’s going on here? Not exactly motivated to hit that link at the moment... Especially on an iMac or iPad... were you using an Apple product or other? After the assassination, Dodd, using CIA sources, helped the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee publish a story that Oswald had been trained at a KGB assassination school in Minsk. At the time, Dodd was on the payroll of the American Security Council, "the leading public group campaigning to use U.S. military force to oust Castro from Cuba, and to escalate the war in Vietnam." http://www.famoustexans.com/leeharveyoswald.htm edit: THIS LINK SEEMS TO HAVE EXPIRED... https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/Vtlg6NPbbQQ THE 2ND LINK JUST TAKES YOU TO THE QUOTED MATERIAL IN A POST BY Sam McClung WITH THE SAME LINK AS MY ORIGINAL ONE.. THE "FAMOUSTEXANS" LINK GOES TO "DOMAIN NAME MAY BE FOR SALE" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Paul, I have had that experience at least three times on a Windows PC so it may just be an Apple version, its a scam for an offshore tech support group who want to sell you software and support. On Windows it really only hangs up the browser so if you contrl alt delete to escape and shut down all your browser related tasks you should free up the computer. If its the same scam the message hides itself as an attachment to the browser sort of like an Ad. Which means you should clean your system. In any event it sounds familiar so that might be the problem - it does lock up your browser so closing and restarting will accomplish nothing in particular - a reboot will either just bring up that screen or be OK until you use the browser again which will bring up the scary message and lock it in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 18 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said: Paul, I have had that experience Thanks Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 17 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said: Paul, I have had that experience at least three times on a Windows PC so it may just be an Apple version, its a scam for an offshore tech support group who want to sell you software and support. On Windows it really only hangs up the browser so if you contrl alt delete to escape and shut down all your browser related tasks you should free up the computer. If its the same scam the message hides itself as an attachment to the browser sort of like an Ad. Which means you should clean your system. In any event it sounds familiar so that might be the problem - it does lock up your browser so closing and restarting will accomplish nothing in particular - a reboot will either just bring up that screen or be OK until you use the browser again which will bring up the scary message and lock it in place. I use an apple product, and it seems that I was just able to close the page. I think it probably was a phony offshore tech support bp group, asking me to call a certain number - out loud btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 That's sounds like it...there was a very loud and almost threatening audio associated with mine and it demanded a phone call...which led to lots of bad things including their taking over the computer to clear the lock....bad stuff. They subtly presented themselves as Microsoft support, which they most definitely were not. Pretty convincing and troubling the first time you run into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Koch Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) IMO the way to go about this, is to ask people on a gun forum for help. In this link is a smaller caliber Corto, but the guys on the forum seem to be knowledgable about serial numbers. https://www.gunboards.com/threads/m38-fucile-corto-in-7-35x51-made-by-beretta-in-1938.1225353/ https://www.kennedysandking.com/images/pdf/JosephsRifle.pdf David, I was skimming your article for Kennedy and King and in your conclusion, you compare A German Mauser to the Carcano.. it's been awhile since I've looked into the Gunsmith tag evidence, but didn't Sharp say something about possibly mounting an Argentine Mauser? The Argentine version looks alot more like the Carcano. I've always thought that this may have been an attempt to fix the fact that the longer Carcano rifle didn't come from Klein's with an attached scope. Edited February 28, 2023 by Matthew Koch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Harvey and Lee PG753: "On November 25 (Monday) FBI Agent Emory Horton arrived at Dial Ryder's house in Irving at 10:30 am. Ryder told the Warren Commission that he did not tell Horton about the repair ticket until after Horton arrived at his house. Ryder said, "Oh, I told him I had a ticket with the name Oswald, no date, no address, just for drilling and tapping and boresighting-no address, or name; he didn't say he'd like to see the ticket....." Ryder explained, "We went up to the Irving Sports Shop and I opened it up and got the ticket and showed him."62 Ryder told SA Horton there was no record of a sale of scope mounts to the customer. Therefore, this customer must have furnished both the scope and the mounts while Ryder performed the labor to drill, tap, and bore sight the gun. But Ryder told Horton he had no recollection of installing a side mounted scope (a very unusual way to mount a scope) on the type of gun used to assassinate President Kennedy. Ryder told the Warren Commission, "On this Italian rifle-I never worked on them. I seen them but as far as doing any physical work, I haven't done none even to this date, I haven't worked on any of them.....l am positive on that, very positive." SA Horton showed Ryder a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, who said that he associated Oswald's picture with that of an individual who brought in an Argentine made rifle about two weeks earlier. Ryder attached a scope on the rifle but said the Argentine rifle had a different bolt assembly than the gun used to assassinate President Kennedy. 63 The FBI failed to ask Ryder for the mans name and address, failed to review repair tickets, and made no attempt to locate the man or the Argentine rifle." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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