Le May and the CIA

[Ron Bulman]

Just got to thinking.  How close, operationally were say Le May and Dulles? 

The U2 operation was purportedly CIA.  But it could not have operated without the USAF,  I. E. Le May.  The CIA didn't build the U2 independently or operate it without their cooperation.  

By the same token, JFK's autopsy was conducted by the Military.  Le May was supposedly MIA that day, possibly in Canada (?), but he reportedly was smoking a cigar at the autopsy.

I don't think the CIA could have done the deed without the Military or vice versa.  There had to be coordination at the top of the chains of command.

The missing AF1 tapes Bill Kelly and in turn Jeff Morley were looking into are relevant.

Were there two more virulent individuals closer to the top of the chain at that time regarding JFK?  Both had reason to hate him extremely and expressed such feelings at points.  Any evidence they colluded? 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Ron Bulman

[James DiEugenio]

Relevant?

Why was the Lemay portion cut out for all those years?

Also, Prouty told Oliver Stone that Lemay was there that night also.

And I stand by your analysis.  IMO, the CIA pulled off the plot, and Lemay was then the guy who organized all that military brass to be there that night.

Why?  To control the autopsy and make sure no one would ever know how many bullets or from what direction JFK was hit.  

Another way Lemay was intertwined with CIA was through SAC. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[W. Niederhut]

      If I recall correctly, Prouty (a USAF colonel) was the official Joint Chiefs' liaison to the CIA in 1963.  Yet, curiously, he didn't say much about USAF General Curtis LeMay in his books, The Secret Team and JFK, the CIA, and Vietnam.

      Prouty did write at length about Generals Ed Lansdale and Victor Krulak, and the fact that Lansdale sent him (Prouty) on a trip to Antarctica during JFK's fateful trip to Dallas.  Both Prouty and Krulak later identified Lansdale in the Dealey Plaza photos. Prouty also mentioned the stand down order for local military back up for JFK's security in Dallas, implicating the Joint Chiefs in the coup d'etat.

[Jon Pickering]

CIA, like Oswald, was a patsy, but, it served as such for all manner of Military ops including the Joint Chiefs' 'get the Kennedys' project. That's why it was established by Military brass in the first place - to draw heat.

Look at how many JFKA 'researchers' spend so much time and energy on the CIA 'done it' conclusion, as well the number of obvious agents who entice those researches into that line of inquiry and conclusions with false leads and inflamatory accusations against its heads and personnel - which may very well be accurate but hardly conclusive of CIA supervision over the JFKA plot. 

[Larry Hancock]

To be specific Prouty was on the Joint Chiefs staff in SACSA, an organization initially set up to provide military assets covertly to the CIA and later to begin preparing for supporting the process of transferring certain covert military operations from the CIA to DOD. Those included both covert action and counter insurgency activities.

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01083A000100120013-8.pdf

In that role Prouty provided support to certain CIA projects, one of them being the initial Cuba Project.  In that particular task he was roundly criticized by CIA field officers for being obstructionist and bureaucratic  - their terms for him were pretty blunt.  My friend David Boylan found a few documents describing that and may post them here if he follows that. Safe to say the project CIA officers were not at all happy with the support they were getting from the military.

As an Air Force officer detailed to the Joint Chiefs staff and working with the CIA Prouty would have had little to no personal exposure to LeMay when LeMay was heading SAC and likely little with him even when LeMay joined the Joint Chiefs - although LeMay may well have signed some of his paperwork.  But he was not head of the staff nor was he in a liaison relationship with senior officers at the CIA.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Dulles and LeMay were pals, on a first name basis and exchanged gifts.

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01676R001200020047-8.pdf

I have never thought that the JFK murder worked through any kind of formal channels.

[David Boylan]

Prouty to Krulak 5 Sept 1963  - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10304&search="agency_JCS"#relPageId=3&tab=page

Colonels Prouty and Higgins meeting with Joe Califano and Col Alexander Haig - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10299#relPageId=3&tab=page

Here's an example of the DOD/JCS overview and approval of CIA operations that Larry has referenced above.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=78838#relPageId=3&tab=page

Here's a doc (11/8/63) by Krulak to Director, Joint Staff. The DOD was going to supply air support for CIA raids into Cuba. Capt Kurtz?? Shades of Apocalypse Now.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10285#relPageId=3&tab=page

Removing Prouty from the Secret Team? 🙂 Name crossed out under SACSA

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10272&relPageId=3

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

8 hours ago, David Boylan said:

Prouty to Krulak 5 Sept 1963  - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10304&search="agency_JCS"#relPageId=3&tab=page

Colonels Prouty and Higgins meeting with Joe Califano and Col Alexander Haig - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10299#relPageId=3&tab=page

Here's an example of the DOD/JCS overview and approval of CIA operations that Larry has referenced above.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=78838#relPageId=3&tab=page

Here's a doc (11/8/63) by Krulak to Director, Joint Staff. The DOD was going to supply air support for CIA raids into Cuba. Capt Kurtz?? Shades of Apocalypse Now.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10285#relPageId=3&tab=page

Removing Prouty from the Secret Team? 🙂 Name crossed out under SACSA

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10272&relPageId=3

 

 

Interesting stuff.  Raises several questions for me.

I wonder why Prouty was removed from SACSA's Cuba team in October of 1963.

Also, Lansdale isn't on the DOD's Cuba planning list for 10/63.  Wasn't Lansdale in charge of Operation Mongoose?

And didn't JFK, officially, put the kibosh on Cuban sabotage ops after the Cuban Missile Crisis in 10/62?

As for his concept of the "Secret Team," if I understand it correctly, Prouty described it as a team of government professionals working in a wide array of departments (including the DOD, State, Treasury, etc.) who were secretly reporting to (and working for) Allen Dulles.

Prouty didn't view himself as a member of Dulles's "Secret Team."  In fact, he specifically mentioned in one of his books that he never signed a CIA non-disclosure agreement because he was never a Company man.

[Ron Bulman]

8 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Dulles and LeMay were pals, on a first name basis and exchanged gifts.

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01676R001200020047-8.pdf

I have never thought that the JFK murder worked through any kind of formal channels.

I thought I'd read somewhere of a more formal personal relationship between them but found nothing beyond the link you provide on line.  I checked Talbot in Chessboard, Unspeakable, Crossfire, and finally I remembered seeing Le May in Mal Hyman's Burying the Lead.  Nothing there either but he dose note this, "Harpers claimed Le May ran SAC like Dulles ran the CIA..."  He also notes Le Mays friendships with Arthur Collins, founder of Collins Radio provider of military and presidential communication systems, as well as Harold Dry Hole Byrd Government aviation contractor through LTV as well as owner of the TSBD in 1963 and creator of the Civil Air Patrol (Ozzie-Ferrie 50's).

Jimmy Stewart provides comic relief for Le May in 1955.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=jimmy+stewart+strategic+air+command&&view=detail&mid=0D381EA73D133F0893EA0D381EA73D133F0893EA&&FORM=VDRVRV

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=jimmy+stewart+strategic+air+command&&view=detail&mid=2B861A5B6BDCE52A5D462B861A5B6BDCE52A5D46&rvsmid=0D381EA73D133F0893EA0D381EA73D133F0893EA&FORM=VDRVRV

[Chuck Schwartz]

Larry, do you think Lemay was at the Bethesda JFK fake autopsy? (Connor, the ambulance driver , said he saw a man with a cigar in his mouth barking orders). The person giving orders in Bethesda that night had to know that the 3 shots from the back to JFK was the agreed upon narrative and that the autopsy had to agree with that predetermined story. Bethesda could be the Rosetta Stone for the Big Event.

[Larry Hancock]

Answers to a couple of questions:

"Also, Lansdale isn't on the DOD's Cuba planning list for 10/63.  Wasn't Lansdale in charge of Operation Mongoose?"

....Mongoose had gone into abeyance following the Cuban missile crisis and Lansdale was not brought into the new initiatives that evolved during 1963; he was out of the Cuba picture by the beginning of that year and JFK was trying to move him back into the Vietnam mess....pitching him as both CIA station chief and ambassador - and meeting heavy opposition from State, CIA and the Joint Chiefs.

"And didn't JFK, officially, put the kibosh on Cuban sabotage ops after the Cuban Missile Crisis in 10/62?"

.....Yes and No, officially he issued orders to interdict and stop any anti-Castro exile missions originating out of the US and both the FBI and Army became very much involved in such efforts.  However privately JFK did authorize the CIA to continue certain missions out of WAVE in Miami and directed that new sabotage missions be proposed.  He was in the process of transitioning that effort from the CIA to DOD, as he had already in Vietnam.  However he kept rejected sabotage proposals - although he did approve a new set of missions either in the fall, around October (I might be off a month or so on that). And of course he had authorized AMWORLD which was gearing up in a big way for offshore attacks on Cuba.

LeMay at Bethesda

.....A few years ago I organized a set of JFK Lancer conference presentations on that and did a good deal of work on the question myself.  At this point my feeling is that he did indeed come back from leave (having been in Chicago with family and then hunting in Canada) in a real rush, making it to Bethesda during the evening. I think he was likely an observer at some point although not a driver on controlling the autopsy; I see the real figure in that attempt as the President's personal physician who actually ordered the Bethesda staff not to do a full autopsy and  who clearly received orders from someone on that point. He also tried and failed to talk about the assassination to the HSCA, offering evidence of a conspiracy. 

As to LeMay, at that point in time he was non longer in charge of SAC and was indeed Air Force Chief. The real players in what the military did or did not do were the ones in the Pentagon who met with McNamara early in the afternoon.  There is a lot to be said about that - and I do in SWHT, grin - but LeMay was not part of that dialog. I suspect that if he had been there might have been a much more elevated response or that he certainly would have argued for it...but based on all we have found so far he was in Canada and just starting on his way back at that point...with his only likely communication the SAC single side band radio network transceiver he routinely carried with him during his travels.

 

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

  I remembered seeing Le May in Mal Hyman's Burying the Lead....  He also notes Le Mays friendships with... Harold Dry Hole Byrd Government aviation contractor through LTV... "

Ron,

 

Does Hyman, or you, know of any specific contacts or friendships LeMay had with Harold Byrd, or work between LeMay and LTV?

 

Thanks,

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

[Paul Jolliffe]

19 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

 

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01676R001200020047-8.pdf

Yes, I agree, Jim.

The above docs show that LeMay and Dulles were not only buddies on a first name basis, but apparently that LeMay claimed to have "searched" Dulles's office for cigars, and having found none, offered to buy some for Dulles.

(Dulles opted for Montecristo's!)

This was in 1954. 

By 1961, LeMay was USAF Chief of Staff but his buddy was on his way out of the CIA. I wonder how he reacted to that news?

(Who wants to search Series 1 - Special Personal Correspondence 1935-1964 - of the LeMay papers here?)

https://www.loc.gov/item/mm82029918/

[Ron Bulman]

7 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Ron,

 

Does Hyman, or you, know of any specific contacts or friendships LeMay had with Harold Byrd, or work between LeMay and LTV?

 

Thanks,

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

Steve, I'll check this evening to see if it's referenced in his end notes.  The book is pretty well documented.  Ron

[Chuck Schwartz]

Larry, can you take an educated guess as to who was telling JFK's personal physician what to say (re: Bethesda "autopsy")?