The inevitable end result of our last 56 years

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Chris,

      My interest here has always been the historical truth about the subjects under discussion.

      So, naturally, I am annoyed when some forum members simply refuse to make an intellectually honest, good faith effort to discern and tell the truth about history.

     In the case of Trump's first impeachment, relating to Trump's Zelensky extortion attempt, the definitive history was witnessed and described in detail by Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman.  Vindman's version of events was corroborated by several Trump staffers, including Ambassador Sondland, Dr. Fiona Hill, and even John Bolton.

     But Mathew Koch has openly refused to read Vindman's definitive history of the incident, while repeatedly posting the deflective Trump/Fox/Rand Paul tropes implying that Trump was a victim of the Deep State.

     That's intellectual dishonesty.

     Should I simply choose to ignore it?  Perhaps, but that brings up the whole issue of how our society, and this forum, should deal with propaganda and the repetition falsehoods.

     I made the same point a few months ago in the context of confronting Ben Cole's repetition of Tucker Carlson's false "patriot purge" narrative about Trump's January 6th coup attempt-- another attempt to blame the Deep State for Trump's chicanery.

     

Hi William,

Members here are quick to point out when there is a lack of consistency, or hypocrisy when its an opponent. Aren’t many of us guilty of intellectual dishonestly or failing to call out someone who is an ally for it? This is certainly what is wrong with the public discourse. Point scoring and reputation is more important than truth. It shouldn’t be, but, its what has been propagated and encouraged by the media networks. Its by design IMO, so nobody knows what the truth is. You can’t quote The Atlantic and say Fox isn’t allowed. How can we possibly accept either? Both media outlets have distorted JFK and his murder at times. We are all ok to say; but, they are truthful this time. 
 

I haven’t read Vindman’s piece either, just because I think Trump was angling at a quid pro quo, in a way that I am certain many presidents, foreign ministers or ambassadors have. it fits the foreign policy MO. I can bet previous leaders were more subtle though. 
Its been a long time since I paid any attention to that as so much as happened since, and I apologise if I am misremembering. Thats by the by. If we don’t concede when we are wrong, or if we don’t read others links, just dismiss them, are we practising what we preach in terms of ideals? I am not saying you are right or wrong. Or Matt is right or wrong. I am certain that we can’t call for censorship. If it was on another thread, rather than this political one, then I could understand. Look at Steve Thomas and Doug. They rarely debate anything and posts tons of links per week that are pro Dem. constant MSM. Some if I find interesting but, its mostly blue. 
 

I do think your response is linked more to emotions than your rational ideals. It reminds me a lot of people debating sports after a heated encounter. 
 

Would you in this moment censor Matthew, having considered what I have said in the last two posts?

 

[W. Niederhut]

18 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

The only "intellectual dishonesty" going on here is coming from you William. The context of what John McCain was clear you are either misrepresenting it or are not smart enough to understand the context of what " a friend to Russia means".

I have cited an article which you William didn't read which says the Whistle Blower is CIA and is unnamed hence not Vindman. Rand Paul literally named the whistleblower as Eric Caramello. William will not acknowledge this fact that has a cititation because he is Intellectually dishonest. 

Get a clue, Mathew.

Vindman was the primary whistle blower in the Trump/Zelensky extortion scam.  You, obviously, didn't watch the House investigation in December of 2019.

The CIA whistle blower outed by Rand Paul was merely another witness who corroborated Vindman's report-- as did Sondland, Hill, and Bolton.

Now, study Vindman's detailed account and stop cluttering the forum with your Trump/Fox bunk.

As for Rand Paul, anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that he has been shilling for the Kremlin.

[Matthew Koch]

28 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Get a clue, Mathew.

Vindman was the primary whistle blower in the Trump/Zelensky extortion scam.  You, obviously, didn't watch the House investigation in December of 2019.

The CIA whistle blower outed by Rand Paul was merely another witness who corroborated Vindman's report-- as did Sondland, Hill, and Bolton.

Now, study Vindman's detailed account and stop cluttering the forum with your Trump/Fox bunk.

As for Rand Paul, anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that he has been shilling for the Kremlin.

No, Vindman is not the primary whistle blower he was the corroborating witness because the whistle blower never had a name until Rand Paul outed him. You saying it was "merely" another witness is intellectual dishonesty on your part. You didn't even know about it a minute ago and now you are saying it was "MERLEY"

 Educate myself?  William you are not only intellectually dishonest  you are also lazy. Cite the information, I have.

That's quite the statement "anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that he has been shilling for the Kremlin." 

That is a Russia hacked the election allegation that has been debunked. 

Rand Paul outing the whistle blower and the phone call being declassified proved it was a set up. The the "Crime" was supposedly quid pro quo to look into the corruption surrounding Hunter Biden and other real stuff that happened that led to Russia gate. Which is why impeachment failed. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Matthew Koch

[Matt Allison]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

My interest here has always been discerning and telling the historical truth about the subjects under discussion.

Then arguing with Matthew, Chris and John is not the route you want to take. 

These are anti-America, pro-fascist, pro-authoritarian foreign nationals whose agenda has nothing to do with truth.

[Joe Bauer]

Another Trump promoted election candidate pick bites the LOSER dust!

Democrat Katie Hobbs defeats Trumplican boot kisser Kari Lake for Arizona governor.

How many LOSER Trump picks is that this mid-term election ... 15?

The Trump RED WAVE turned into an old dog piddle trickle.

That is what one must now call ... The Trump LOSER Touch.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[W. Niederhut]

22 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

Then arguing with Matthew, Chris and John is not the route you want to take. 

These are anti-America, pro-fascist, pro-authoritarian foreign nationals whose agenda has nothing to do with truth.

Mathew Koch's refusal to read Alexander Vindman's definitive, firsthand history of the Trump/Zelensky extortion scandal is the last straw for me.  No mas.

It's also obvious that Mathew didn't listen to the damning witness testimony by Sondland and Hill during Trump's first impeachment by the House.

(Nor did Mathew and Ben listen to the testimony in the Congressional J6 hearings this year.)

One of the findings of the recent UC Berkley study of Fox News viewers who were paid to start watching CNN was that the Fox News watchers had been generally ignorant about Trump's scandals, and they were surprised during the study to learn the truth about Trump's misconduct.

Edited November 15, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

No!

Football head battered Walker thinks he is working man honest talking literate!

The better man than city slicker dressed men who use big words.

A tackle dodging, touchdown scoring, righteous manhood sword swinging knight in shining football uniform armor. 

 

 

CTE is a real thing Joe.  I have to wonder if Herschel doesn't have it.

chronic traumatic encephalopathy - Search (bing.com)

[Benjamin Cole]

Interesting question:

It has been posited in this forum that it was Trump who actually cut the deal to finally, finally remove US troops from Afcrapistan. The deal fell into Biden's lap for better or worse. 

But what if HRC, not Trump had won the 2016 election?

HRC had championed women's rights as a reason to stay the course in Afghanistan. That was one of carousel of evolving mission statements, through Donk and 'Phant administrations, covering nearly two decades, validating US involvement in Afcrapistan. 

HRC's mission statement---women's rights---has a perma-war aspect to it. Surely, no one believed Afcrap culture will evolve to Western standards. 

So...we would still be talking about Kabul, and Helmand province and how bad the Taliban is and the need for another surge...if HRC had prevailed? 

Remember, Obama started off his administration with a military surge in Afcrapistan. There is precedent. 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

22 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

HRC had championed women's rights as a reason to stay the course in Afghanistan.

This is an intriguing question. Not sure how it would have played out.

Do you remember when she stated this?

[Benjamin Cole]

12 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

This is an intriguing question. Not sure how it would have played out.

Do you remember when she stated this?

Matt:

I was afraid you were going to ask, and you are fair to ask. We should cite our various claims. 

I saw HRC on TV saying this...but I will look for a real cite later when I have more time.  

[Benjamin Cole]

Hillary Clinton vows to defend rights of Afghan women

US secretary of state tells foreign ministers meeting in Kabul women 'will not be sacrificed' in any peace deal with the Taliban

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/20/hillary-clinton-afghan-women-taliban

---30---

There can be no sustainable peace in Afghanistan if women are not at the negotiating table, former United States Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told ambassadors and activists at UN Headquarters on Tuesday. 

https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/03/1059091

---30---

Clinton to Afghan women: ‘We will not abandon you’

  Secretary Clinton met with four female Afghan government ministers yesterday and made a pledge to the women of Afghanistan: "We will not abandon you. We will stand with you always."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2010/05/14/clinton-to-afghan-women-we-will-not-abandon-you/

---30---

There is plenty more with some googling....tons....

Of course, one looks like a cad to say, "Oh, who cares about women's rights in Afghanistan?" 

But...how long would the US have to stay in Afghanistan to protect women's rights, and also human rights? With any hope of success on either score? 

And, are we so sure Westernization, in its latest iteration, is the answer to everything? 

[Kirk Gallaway]

Of course Trump was president, Ben. And didn't have the balls to immediately get out like Biden, but promised to do it a year in advance, even though he didn't even know if he would be re elected, so he hedged. Then he later blamed that on his generals, but whose the chief executive?

 

 

Is this another "women's lib" rant from Thailand, Ben? .

 

Ben spent 2 years here repetitively ranting about going after the CCP, and then when Pelosi has the balls to go to Taiwan. Ben cowers, and says "that's too extreme", and actual derides Pelosi whole mission as some "Women's Lib" stunt, just like he's doing now, right Ben? So, now Biden's meeting with Xi. So I guess your fears of the world ending weren't justified?

 

 Ben you didn't answer my question, your anecdotal story of your friend in Pennsylvania, son of a steel worker, who said the Dems messaging wasn't alarming of crime enough and didn't talk enough about "families'. Did he vote for Mehment Oz?

 

[Benjamin Cole]

56 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Of course Trump was president, Ben. And didn't have the balls to immediately get out like Biden, but promised to do it a year in advance, even though he didn't even know if he would be re elected, so he hedged. Then he later blamed that on his generals, but whose the chief executive?

 

 

Is this another "women's lib" rant from Thailand, Ben? .

 

Ben spent 2 years here repetitively ranting about going after the CCP, and then when Pelosi has the balls to go to Taiwan. Ben cowers, and says "that's too extreme", and actual derides Pelosi whole mission as some "Women's Lib" stunt, just like he's doing now, right Ben? So, now Biden's meeting with Xi. So I guess your fears of the world ending weren't justified?

 

 Ben you didn't answer my question, your anecdotal story of your friend in Pennsylvania, son of a steel worker, who said the Dems messaging wasn't alarming of crime enough and didn't talk enough about "families'. Did he vote for Mehment Oz?

 

Kirk, Kirk, Kirk:

My Commonweal of Pennsylvania friend retired out of state. He probably did not bother to vote in the mid-terms. I gather his fire for party affiliation has been reduced to a small ember. A reasonable pathway, no? 

For the record, I thought there was a bit of the quack in Oz, and bit of the fake in Fetterman. 

I agree with the sentiment that Trump (and Obama) should have pulled out of Afcrapistan entirely on Day One in office. I respect Biden for actually getting out.

Obama's long and drawn-out consideration and then implementation of a Afcrap surge now appears painfully ill-advised (as covered pretty well in Obama's Wars, by Woodward).

How could any well-advised person expect anything but futility in Afcrapistan? 

Kirk: Why did Obama not only commit to Afcrapistan, but actually enlarge US presence there?

Would HRC, in 2016, have done the same? I think so/

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

CTE is a real thing Joe.  I have to wonder if Herschel doesn't have it.

chronic traumatic encephalopathy - Search (bing.com)

More Hershel W. CTE, Maury Povich talk show nonsense: 

"So what we are going to do is put, from the Green New Deal, millions, billions of dollars cleaning our good air up. So all of the sudden China and India, they put nothing to clean that situation up. Since we don't control the air, our good air decides to float over to China's bad air. So when China gets our good air, their bad air got to move. So it moves over to our good airspace. Then, now, we got to clean that back up."

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

CTE is a real thing Joe.  I have to wonder if Herschel doesn't have it.

chronic traumatic encephalopathy - Search (bing.com)

911 TRADE CENTER BUILDING 7 COLLAPSE SHOCKINGLY MORE SYMMETRICAL AND OWN IMPRINT FALLING THAN EVEN THIS MIAMI HOTEL HIGH RISE "CONTROLLED DEMOLITION" ONE.

 

Famed Miami Beach Hotel Imploded After Suffering …

 

https://weather.com/news/weather/video/famed-miami...

Edited November 15, 2022 by Joe Bauer