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# Unveiling The Limo Stop

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Decipher the documentation:

Shot3 = Frame 89 = Z313
Shot2 = Frame 56 = Z280 - 6ft = Z273

Z273 occurs just before the hair flap occurrence.

btw, the hair flap is much more noticeable in this document.

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Were there subtle irregularities when comparing films in the span of z280-z313?

Did Myers not have the entire Nix film for his multi-film sync project as he started with the Nix equivalent of Z291, while Itek possessed the Nix equivalent of Z285.

Any speed jumps in that very small span of frames?

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Hi Chris, every competent researcher from this forum must be on vacation at the moment so until they read what you have posted and provide decent feedback can you flesh out the provenance of the Weigman film? Can you cite that it was shown so early?

An article by a Mr Kelleher. His conclusions are based on the Z film and aren't robust, but his method of analysis (assessment of human reactions) Appears very good. Do his reaction points match your conclusions on synching? From your previous work I know you have looked at the possibility of a later shot than Z313.

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On 5/7/2020 at 6:35 PM, Chris Davidson said:

Establish Wiegman Frame Rate:

The same frames on the left are from the same original film version shown live on TV 11-22-1963. They are portrayed using two different movie players One that shows total frames and the other shows time elapsed.

The frame on the right is from my progressive version of the Wiegman film. It includes the first 27.2 seconds of uninterrupted running time.

The bottom graphic is the end of the 27.2 second span.

The conversion back to the original frame rate is 4/5 = .8 multiplier.

Hi Chris.  24 FPS is indeed the rate that the Wiegman film was replayed on TV in 1963, as for each 4 frames in the original film, an extra one was added to get to the ~30 FPS rate for TV.  However, the rate that the Wiegman film was recorded at is unknown and can only be estimated relative to other films and human judgement.

His Filmo camera had both a 24 FPS setting and 32 FPS, so it's somewhat moot as to which one he was using:

Even if we knew that, we wouldn't know if the device was running slightly faster or slower than the factory specification, as each camera had its own quirks thanks to their mechanical nature.

In terms of verifying or refuting the completeness of the Zapruder film, the recorded frame rate of the Wiegman film is crucial.  If it can be proven that the Wiegman film was recorded at 24 FPS, then about 2 seconds is missing from the Zapruder film between Z295 and Z447.  Conversely if the Wiegman film is proven to have been recorded around 28-32 FPS then the extant Zapruder film is valid and complete.

How can we do this verification objectively?  Sadly I'm not sure we can.  The closest we get is a Dorman film segment which was recorded concurrently with the Wiegman and Zapruder film for about 6-7 seconds.  If we could somehow match that segment to the other films we could deduce the correct frame rate, but sadly I don't think there are enough shared visual elements to do that.

The only remaining thing I can think of doing is an eyeball test.  Here is the Wiegman film re-coded at 24 FPS, 28 FPS, and 32 FPS:

Which one looks most natural?  I think 28-32 FPS due to the way Charles Hester jumps up near the end.  The original 24 FPS video feels a little too slow.  It's rather subjective, but I think it's the only way of testing the Wiegman film.

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4 hours ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

Hi Chris, every competent researcher from this forum must be on vacation at the moment so until they read what you have posted and provide decent feedback can you flesh out the provenance of the Weigman film? Can you cite that it was shown so early?

The whole of the Wiegman film was shown on the afternoon of the assassination on NBC here at 2:10:50:

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51 minutes ago, Mark Tyler said:

It's rather subjective, but I think it's the only way of testing the Wiegman film.

Hi Mark, I don't know much about testing the rates of cameras but my view is that there is other evidence suggestive of frame removal, for example the alleged limo stop evidence is pretty substantial and the testimony of Clint Hill conflicts with the extant film. So rather than being stuck not knowing the camera frame rate, we now have more indication of frame removal.

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42 minutes ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

Hi Mark, I don't know much about testing the rates of cameras but my view is that there is other evidence suggestive of frame removal, for example the alleged limo stop evidence is pretty substantial and the testimony of Clint Hill conflicts with the extant film. So rather than being stuck not knowing the camera frame rate, we now have more indication of frame removal.

To add to your "other evidence suggestive of frame removal", the child behind his father suddenly appears beside his father, in 1 frame -1/18 of a second.

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4 hours ago, Mark Tyler said:

Hi Chris.  24 FPS is indeed the rate that the Wiegman film was replayed on TV in 1963, as for each 4 frames in the original film, an extra one was added to get to the ~30 FPS rate for TV.  However, the rate that the Wiegman film was recorded at is unknown and can only be estimated relative to other films and human judgement.

Mark and others,

This is the first 11 seconds. These are progressive frames only.     I should have said the progressive only frames version was recorded, then converted to FLV format.

Hope that is clear.

I clocked the clocked.

Edited by Chris Davidson
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8 hours ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

Hi Chris, every competent researcher from this forum must be on vacation at the moment so until they read what you have posted and provide decent feedback can you flesh out the provenance of the Weigman film? Can you cite that it was shown so early?

An article by a Mr Kelleher. His conclusions are based on the Z film and aren't robust, but his method of analysis (assessment of human reactions) Appears very good. Do his reaction points match your conclusions on synching? From your previous work I know you have looked at the possibility of a later shot than Z313.

Eddy,

Mark reposted the link to the NBC telecast that day which includes the playback of the Wiegman film.

Thanks for the article link, I will look at it more in depth, just need some time among the other items I'm presenting.

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27 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Mark and others,

This is the first 11 seconds. These are progressive frames only.     I should have said the progressive only frames version was recorded, then converted to FLV format.

Hope that is clear.

I clocked the clocked.

Hi Chris, this is not clear to me. Are you rebutting Mark Tyler's proposition that the Wiegman frame rate is unknowable? Your calculation shows it as 24fps, does 'I clocked the clock' mean you have verified the frame rate? Many thanks for your replies.

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Chris, also, there were some witnesses that said the limo stopped:

1) Jean Hill (who stood to the immediate left of the limousine with her friend Mary Moorman during the assassination), in her Sheriff’s Dept. affidavit of 11/22/63, stated that the limousine stopped for an instant;
(2) Hugh Betzner (standing behind the limousine during the assassination), in his Sheriff’s Dept. affidavit of 11/22/63, said twice that the limousine stopped during the assassination;
(3) Roy Truly, Oswald’s boss at the TSBD, later stated that the limousine swerved to the left and stopped during the assassination;
(4) DPD officer Bobby W. Hargis—riding escort to the immediate left rear of the limousine—in an interview never published by a local newspaper, but whose text was later found and written about by Richard Trask in his book Pictures of the Pain, stated that the limousine stopped during the assassination; and
(5) In numerous interviews over many years, Bill Newman (standing to the immediate right of the limousine during the assassination with his wife and two children) has repeatedly and consistently recalled that there was a very brief, but definite car stop by the limousine during the assassination

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1 hour ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

Hi Chris, this is not clear to me. Are you rebutting Mark Tyler's proposition that the Wiegman frame rate is unknowable? Your calculation shows it as 24fps, does 'I clocked the clock' mean you have verified the frame rate? Many thanks for your replies.

Yes, I disagree with Mark over the frame rate of Wiegman.

A film is comprised of single individual frames(otherwise known as "progressive").

The Wiegman version I am using contains only progressive frames. There are no interpolated/interlaced, etc. etc.

In other words, I've removed the post-processing conversion process to TV or whatever method might be used.

After that, it's a rate x time = total frames equation.

264 progressive frames @ 11 seconds = 24fps

Wiegman's camera averaged 24fps over the first 11 seconds.

Did it vary within that span, yes that is possible, but keep in mind over the next 16.2 seconds, the total progressive frame count also equaled the camera averaging 24fps.

So, did the camera run at 20 and 28 fps(24fps average) for the first 11 seconds and then repeat that same pattern for the last 16.2 seconds or combination of speeds thereof?

That's too much of a stretch for me, instead of a 24fps camera running at an actual rate of 24fps.

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1 hour ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

Chris, also, there were some witnesses that said the limo stopped:

1) Jean Hill (who stood to the immediate left of the limousine with her friend Mary Moorman during the assassination), in her Sheriff’s Dept. affidavit of 11/22/63, stated that the limousine stopped for an instant;
(2) Hugh Betzner (standing behind the limousine during the assassination), in his Sheriff’s Dept. affidavit of 11/22/63, said twice that the limousine stopped during the assassination;
(3) Roy Truly, Oswald’s boss at the TSBD, later stated that the limousine swerved to the left and stopped during the assassination;
(4) DPD officer Bobby W. Hargis—riding escort to the immediate left rear of the limousine—in an interview never published by a local newspaper, but whose text was later found and written about by Richard Trask in his book Pictures of the Pain, stated that the limousine stopped during the assassination; and
(5) In numerous interviews over many years, Bill Newman (standing to the immediate right of the limousine during the assassination with his wife and two children) has repeatedly and consistently recalled that there was a very brief, but definite car stop by the limousine during the assassination

Chuck,

I agree. To what extent, I believe I stated in my Part 2 initial rollout statements "Greer hit the brakes hard, probably stopped instantaneously then rolled on".

This is what the math is telling me so far.

I purposely have stayed away from as much witness testimony as possible (not that I don't believe in it) because I think a different approach is needed to get us to the witness statements.

This is why I used Hickey's hairflap(z275) description and time between these two particular shots(approx 4.5 sec) as it works quite well with the missing time/frames.

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3 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Mark and others,

This is the first 11 seconds. These are progressive frames only.     I should have said the progressive only frames version was recorded, then converted to FLV format.

Hope that is clear.

I clocked the clocked.

I created a gif which contains only progressive frames.

If so desired, you can download it, play it in your favorite movie player, count "frame x frame" and reach your own conclusion.

This is playing at 25fps as that is the closest rate I can get to 24fps using Photoshop and creating the gif. So it plays for 10.6 (instead of 11) sec but all 265 progressive frames are there.

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22 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Were there subtle irregularities when comparing films in the span of z280-z313?

Did Myers not have the entire Nix film for his multi-film sync project as he started with the Nix equivalent of Z291, while Itek possessed the Nix equivalent of Z285.

Any speed jumps in that very small span of frames?

Following up on the connection to where I believe the excising started is the article by Paul Mandel.
It’s published in the Dec 6, 1963 edition of Life Magazine.
This article has always left me somewhat puzzled because of his specific reference to frame count pertaining to the movie he was viewing.
Yet, put into the customary views of when some shots occurred, it didn’t fully work.
Now I believe it does.

The strike he describes at 170ft away (derived from Breneman), which is later corrected in terms of distance by surveyor Robert West using proper surveying techniques is at extant z207.
Shot at z200, camera reaction at z207.

74 frames later, shot at z274, camera reaction at z281.

48 frames later the extant z313 headshot.

Including the extra 38 missing frames now, what happens if I remove what amounts to every other frame starting at approx 281.

281+ 32 = 313

1/2 of 32 frames = 16 frames

32 + 16 = 48 frames = Mandel’s description of 48 frames between shots.

Mandel sees a version that was in the process of being converted.

Btw, I’m not discounting that he started at z281 + 48 = z329 which could be a different shot than extant 313, I just believe his viewing was of a version not quite in its final state.

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