Any Proof Of How Oswald Got To and From the TSBD?

[Rob Clark]

Can anyone point me in the direction of anything in the official record that explains how Oswald got to and from work while allegedly staying in the Beckley Rooming House?

It seems odd to me that no witnesses (normal, everyday take the bus to work folks) ever came forward as having recognized LHO from their daily commutes. Anyone ever talk to him? Eye contact? Observed behavior? i.e. read a book or newspaper, chatty, stared out the window... I mean it would be pretty jarring to most, to realize they had been sharing public transportation for a month and a half with the alleged assassin of the POTUS...told their story to a local paper or radio station?? You would think the WC would have tried to establish this...interviewed the normal bus route driver, fellow passengers...etc? I know Earlene Roberts may have said he would wait at the bus stop...or near it on the corner of Zangs and Beckley, but did she ever see him board a bus? I'm very familiar with stories of co-workers Jarman, Norman, Shields, Gibson, and Lewis stating to the HSCA that Frazier always brought Oswald to work, and that they would normally park behind the TSBD on the curve of Houston St. Is it out of the realm of possibility that nice guy Buell Frazier would do this? And if he did, it implies a more layered relationship than he insists that it was.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Rob Clark

[Joe Bauer]

Are you saying that Frazier drove to North Beckley each morning to pick up Oswald?

And drove him back there each work day as well?

I will say that if Oswald took the same morning bus to work the entire time he worked at the TXSBD ( not long but what-2 months?) you would think the driver of that bus ( if drivers back then usually did the same route) would have recognized any photos of Oswald when they were splashed everywhere starting 11,22,1963.

Especially if Oswald got on the same bus at the same pick up location each morning or took it back to Beckley as well at the end of the work day.

Did not "one" fellow resident of the rooming house or Robert's herself, ever see Oswald boarding or getting off of the bus in his comings and goings?

The bus stop was how far away from the rooming house? If it was two blocks or more away, one could understand nobody recalling seeing Oswald do this.

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Rob Clark]

15 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Are you saying that Frazier drove to North Beckley each morning to pick up Oswald?

And drove him back there each work day as well?

I will say that if Oswald took the same morning bus to work the entire time he worked at the TXSBD ( not long but what-2 months?) you would think the driver of that bus ( if drivers back then usually did the same route) would have recognized any photos of Oswald when they were splashed everywhere starting 11,22,1963.

Especially if Oswald got on the same bus at the same pick up location each morning or took it back to Beckley as well at the end of of the work day.

Did not "one" fellow resident of the rooming house or Robert's herself, ever see Oswald boarding or getting off of the bus in his comings and goings?

The bus stop was how far away from the rooming house? If it was two blocks or more away, one could understand nobody recalling seeing Oswald do this.

 

I'm merely suggesting it....five of his coworkers testified that was the case. It would have only added 5 mins or so to Buell Frazier's commute each way...would you do that for a friend who worked at the same place you did that didn't have a car? I'm saying folks that ride the bus to and from work, generally do so on a daily basis. The bus driver would normally drive the same routes everyday...so where are they? Why didn't the WC try to establish this? They seemingly looked into every other aspect of Oswald's life...

The bus stop was literally on the corner of Zangs and Beckley...the rooming house is the second house down from the corner, definitely observable from anyone peeking out the window of the rooming house. Curious indeed....

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Rob Clark said:

I'm merely suggesting it....five of his coworkers testified that was the case. It would have only added 5 mins or so to Buell Frazier's commute each way...would you do that for a friend who worked at the same place you did that didn't have a car? I'm saying folks that ride the bus to and from work, generally do so on a daily basis. The bus driver would normally drive the same routes everyday...so where are they? Why didn't the WC try to establish this? They seemingly looked into every other aspect of Oswald's life...

The bus stop was literally on the corner of Zangs and Beckley...the rooming house is the second house down from the corner, definitely observable from anyone peeking out the window of the rooming house. Curious indeed....

Yes, I agree.

[Joe Bauer]

You would think nosey Earlene Roberts would have seen Oswald getting on and off of the buses, especially since his room was just inside the main house entrance and next to her own sleeping quarters and the bus stop could be seen outside her main activity area.

She would sit in the living room just outside Oswald's room and watch TV.

She even knew what specific items of food Oswald brought into the shared kitchen refrigerator.

I assume Oswald and Earlene shared the same bathroom as well?

Talk about not having any privacy in your basic living environment.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[John Butler]

Mary Hollies said he rode the bus.  It's a long read, but fairly interesting.

Sixth Floor Museum says she rode with Oswald on the bus.
"occasionally rode the same bus as Lee Harvey Oswald"

Yet all her statements say she did not recognize him except on tv she saw him and said she had seen him in the lunchroom numerous times.
Why no mention in her statements about having rode same bus as LHO?
Seems important information. When was the last time she rode with him, to or from work?
Was he living on Elsbeth or another apartment/house. Did they get on at the same stop? Off at same stop? Walk the same way? She lived near intersection of Elsbeth and W. Davis, is that the only connection?

Was she pulling someones leg?

Mary Hollies: The girl in the window

For a number of years the Sixth Floor Museum has conducted an oral history project that interviews individuals and lets them explain how the JFK assassination affected their lives. In January 2011 the museum posted a conversation with Mary Hollies. Ms. Hollies was a young French Canadian that travelled from Montreal and landed a job in the Texas School Book Depository as an underpaid, inventory stock clerk with the Scott Foresman Company in June, 1963. Dallas was quite a change for her. She referred to it as “Hicksville” after leaving a cultural center like Montreal. At the time, Dallas was small, most of the individuals that she met were not forward thinking and the only form of public transportation was the bus. Every morning, she would take the Beckley Street bus downtown and disembark at the corner of Main and Houston. In the fall of 1963 Lee Oswald began riding the same bus to work and eventually the two struck up a friendship. When asked, Ms. Hollies stated “The only one I knew that worked for the School Book Depository was Lee Oswald.” She spoke with Oswald every work day leading up to the assassination and the story she has to tell is in a word “stunning”. After 47 years of silence, her story answers so many questions about Lee Oswald and in turn, raises so many more…

“He posed himself off as a single man”

“Well, he was a character apparently. I found that out later. Many times he sat next to me (on the Beckley bus). And he invited me to communistic meetings that they were having in Dallas. I told him. “Whoa. No. I don’t want to go to that. I’m not a communist.” “Later on, he invited me to go to a party on Davis Street. Candy Barr’s party. Mary questioned him.” You go to strip joints?” No, he said but I have to go to that party to discuss something with someone. That someone, she confirms in a later statement, was Jack Ruby. “He was always inviting me to different things because I rode the bus with him and I also ate lunch with him but he ate off by himself.” Mary Hollies did not realize that Lee was a married man until she saw Marina and the kids on television that weekend.

“I’m going back to Russia soon”

In one conversation Oswald stated that he would be leaving Dallas to return to Russia. “ Yes he told me that he was coming into a lot of money and he would take me to Russia at his expense, and when I told him no I didn’t want to go to Russia, he said, “Well, I know you’re not happy here.” “But I thought…told him I’d think about it, you know (laughing).

“Oh, you don’t have to worry. I’m going to shoot him anyway.”

Mary Madeline Hollies Sixth Floor Museum says she rode with Oswald on the bus. "occasionally rode the same bus as Lee Harvey Oswald" Yet all her statements say she did not recognize him except on tv she saw him and said she had seen him in the lunchroom numerous times. Why no mention in her statements about having rode same bus as LHO? Seems important information. When was the last time she rode with him, to or from work? Was he living on Elsbeth or another apartment/house. Did they get on at the same stop? Off at same stop? Walk the same way? She lived near intersection of Elsbeth and W. Davis, is that the only connection? Was she pulling someones leg? Mary Hollies: The girl in the window For a number of years the Sixth Floor Museum has conducted an oral history project that interviews individuals and lets them explain how the JFK assassination affected their lives. In January 2011 the museum posted a conversation with Mary Hollies. Ms. Hollies was a young French Canadian that travelled from Montreal and landed a job in the Texas School Book Depository as an underpaid, inventory stock clerk with the Scott Foresman Company in June, 1963. Dallas was quite a change for her. She referred to it as “Hicksville” after leaving a cultural center like Montreal. At the time, Dallas was small, most of the individuals that she met were not forward thinking and the only form of public transportation was the bus. Every morning, she would take the Beckley Street bus downtown and disembark at the corner of Main and Houston. In the fall of 1963 Lee Oswald began riding the same bus to work and eventually the two struck up a friendship. When asked, Ms. Hollies stated “The only one I knew that worked for the School Book Depository was Lee Oswald.” She spoke with Oswald every work day leading up to the assassination and the story she has to tell is in a word “stunning”. After 47 years of silence, her story answers so many questions about Lee Oswald and in turn, raises so many more… “He posed himself off as a single man” “Well, he was a character apparently. I found that out later. Many times he sat next to me (on the Beckley bus). And he invited me to communistic meetings that they were having in Dallas. I told him. “Whoa. No. I don’t want to go to that. I’m not a communist.” “Later on, he invited me to go to a party on Davis Street. Candy Barr’s party. Mary questioned him.” You go to strip joints?” No, he said but I have to go to that party to discuss something with someone. That someone, she confirms in a later statement, was Jack Ruby. “He was always inviting me to different things because I rode the bus with him and I also ate lunch with him but he ate off by himself.” Mary Hollies did not realize that Lee was a married man until she saw Marina and the kids on television that weekend. “I’m going back to Russia soon” In one conversation Oswald stated that he would be leaving Dallas to return to Russia. “ Yes he told me that he was coming into a lot of money and he would take me to Russia at his expense, and when I told him no I didn’t want to go to Russia, he said, “Well, I know you’re not happy here.” “But I thought…told him I’d think about it, you know (laughing). “Oh, you don’t have to worry. I’m going to shoot him anyway.” “There were several of us ladies that went down there (second floor breakroom) to eat. We would brown bag it because we didn’t make much money back in those days. Some of the ladies were discussing Kennedy coming to Dallas. And some of them didn’t approve of a Catholic president. Can you imagine this? Anyway, Lee popped up and said “Oh you don’t have to worry. I’m gonna shoot him anyway.” (There’s a discontinuity here.  She said Oswald ate alone.) None of us believed that and we just hushed him up. Said, Oh you’re just running your mouth. You’re not going to do anything.” “We really didn’t believe him but time proved otherwise, as you know. Look what he did.” Lee Goes Fishing On the day of the assassination We saw Lee on the freight elevator with something in his hand. “It was a brown paper package and it was as tall as him. Dorothy Garner asked him what was in the package. And he said. “fishing rods!” “She just kind of laughed and said Oh? You plan to go fishing today? Oswald did not reply and continued his ride on the elevator. The Big Event Mary Hollies didn’t have an office or even a corner to call her own. She was given a cart to stock books in a caged in area on the fourth floor. She noted. “Floor five and six were all storage, warehouse. It was all open. It had wooden floors. You could hear the sound very easily, especially through the elevator shaft” “I spent a lot of time on the 4th and 5th floors. When it was announced that the president was near, “Alice (Foster) and I said “let’s go up to the fifth floor”. We rang for the elevator and Lee was on the elevator but he didn’t stop for us. He kept going. So we were kind of miffed with him, and we hollered up the shaft. “Hey, you could’ve stopped for us. But he kept on going to the sixth floor, and then he locked the elevator up. When we finally got to the 5th floor we opened a window and we were sitting on the window ledge and we heard clack..clank..clank..and someone was coming down the noisy elevator. It was a black dude coming down (Bonnie Ray Williams). We went to the window and sat there. We had the perfect place to watch.” (Some researchers believe that Mary Hollies was on the 4th floor but she insists that she was on the 5th floor and later moved to the 4th) We could see the president and Jackie coming down Houston and then…. we thought a cannon had gone off. We saw the president slump and we saw Jackie getting on the back of the car. She was hysterical. “I believe it was three shots, two or three. It was definitely not one.” “Alice noticed some smoke over on the little hill that was there. She saw smoke over there but I don’t know that it was a gun being fired. I don’t know what it was. Every one was going crazy. “Like a chicken with its head cut off.” When did you first realize that Oswald might be involved? “It occurred to me going home on the bus with him.” A bus that was practically empty. She had been interviewed by the FBI and Secret Service and was released to go home. “As I was waiting at the stop and I got on, Oswald was running to get the bus. He sat right behind me and when he did I realized, oh my God, he did this. (This is problematic for a number of reasons) Mary Hollies later heard the story of a women claiming to be on the bus with Lee after the shooting ( Mary Bledsoe) . Ms Hollies does not believe that this woman was being honest because the bus was nearly empty and she did not see another woman on board. Stephen Fagin, the director of the oral history program, asked Mary why her original police statement was so understated and why she had intentionally denied any knowledge of Oswald outside of work. “I was terrified because I was not a citizen of this country. “ “I was hiding a lot of information.” So she was fibbing or senile. She gets out the TSBD at 2:30 about 45 minutes after LHO is arrested in the TT. Why was she spouting such bs for an oral history?

Edited June 19, 2020 by John Butler

[Joe Bauer]

The time line of Oswald's activities versus this woman's claims of seeing him on the afternoon of 11,22,1963 make her sound ... NUTS!

And she says Oswald said to her and her friends at lunch "I'm going to shoot him anyway."

???

Did any of the other ladies with her verify Oswald said this to them?

[James DiEugenio]

DId she testify for the HSCA?

[Ron Bulman]

She rode the bus with and talked with him every day.  They had lunch together, but he ate off by himself.  And he said he would take her to Russia? 

Several of us ladies went to the second floor lunch room, the one where warehouse employees weren't allowed to eat... I'm going to shoot him anyway.

She realized he'd done it when he was riding the bus home and he was in the seat behind her.  After she'd been interviewed by the FBI and Secret Service.  I.E. by that time it was after LHO had been arrested...  There's more in there but what a crock.

[Ron Bulman]

On 6/18/2020 at 3:53 PM, Rob Clark said:

Can anyone point me in the direction of anything in the official record that explains how Oswald got to and from work while allegedly staying in the Beckley Rooming House?

It seems odd to me that no witnesses (normal, everyday take the bus to work folks) ever came forward as having recognized LHO from their daily commutes. Anyone ever talk to him? Eye contact? Observed behavior? i.e. read a book or newspaper, chatty, stared out the window... I mean it would be pretty jarring to most, to realize they had been sharing public transportation for a month and a half with the alleged assassin of the POTUS...told their story to a local paper or radio station?? You would think the WC would have tried to establish this...interviewed the normal bus route driver, fellow passengers...etc? I know Earlene Roberts may have said he would wait at the bus stop...or near it on the corner of Zangs and Beckley, but did she ever see him board a bus? I'm very familiar with stories of co-workers Jarman, Norman, Shields, Gibson, and Lewis stating to the HSCA that Frazier always brought Oswald to work, and that they would normally park behind the TSBD on the curve of Houston St. Is it out of the realm of possibility that nice guy Buell Frazier would do this? And if he did, it implies a more layered relationship than he insists that it was.

It almost seems like the Warren Omission didn't want to go there.  Maybe they knew talking to bus drivers and other regular riders of the bus Oswald would have rode would have revealed he didn't.  If so, delving into his co workers statements about riding with Fraizer every day might have opened a whole new can of worms they didn't want to touch, with a ten foot pole.

[Andrej Stancak]

John:

thanks for posting the excerpts from Mary Hollies's Oral History interview. Her statements contain some mind-boggling data, of course, if her recollections are truthful. 

Below is her statement for the FBI. It is one of many statements the FBI took from the Depository employees, and all these statements are in CE 1381. The remarkable thing is that all the statements follow the same template and are as non-informative as possible. The FBI did not want to hear about any employees' encounters with Lee Oswald at all.

Regarding the thread itself, I believe that Lee Oswald rode a bus to work regularly but nobody, no even the first generation researchers, chose to ask the bus drivers about Lee Oswald. It is a shame, however, Oswald was likewise not asked about how he got from his room at North Beckley to the Texas Theater. Postal Inspector Holmes was asked by the Warren Commission about whether the interrogators have probed Lee Oswald on his exact route from North Beckley to the Texas Theater, and Holmes conferred he had assumed that this point was already clarified in previous interrogation sessions... There was no genuine interest in learning about Lee Oswald's way of life, his contacts and how he spent time. The most efficient way how not to learn anything of significance from a suspect is to allow him to be killed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

On 6/20/2020 at 12:35 AM, John Butler said:

“Later on, he invited me to go to a party on Davis Street. Candy Barr’s party.

This part of Mrs. Hollies's recollection can hardly be true. Candy Barr was released from jail on April 1, 1963 and was not allowed to live, not to mention giving any striptease performances, in Dallas. She lived in Edna, Texas (about 5 hour drive from Dallas) during the time of President's assassination. How could Lee Oswald attend her party on Davis Street, Dallas in Autumn of 1963?

Edited June 23, 2020 by Andrej Stancak

[Joe Bauer]

The statement Mrs. Hollies attributes to Oswald in the first person " I'm going to shoot him anyway" is so powerfully incriminating, any authority investigating the JFK shooting would be immediately trying to verify it by asking Hollies who the other women were that she says sat with her and Oswald and of course heard the same shocking Oswald threat.

Who were these other women?

Let's contact them ASAP and either verify Hollies claim, or dismiss it and her.

Are any of these fellow eye and ear witnesses to Oswald's JFK shooting brag still alive?

If I read that one or two of them completely verified Mrs. Hollies Oswald threat claim, I would definitely want to know more.

But, here we have the admittedly anti-social, keep to himself, taciturn, secretive, even barely open with Buell Frazier Oswald...blurting out something so outrageous in it's context to young women he didn't even know or work closely with you'd have to wonder if he may have had a degree of Tourette Syndrome in his mental makeup.

Now, if Hollies accounts of Oswald flirting with her on the bus several times is true as well, it makes me consider Oswald's other flirtations such as the Japanese woman guest at the Dallas White Russian get together he and Marina attended, the women he encountered in Russia before getting serious with Marina and maybe even Judyth Vary Baker in N.O.?

I do believe Oswald did have at least some intimate encounters with some Japanese ladies off base while he was stationed at Atsugi. And if Oswald ever had shore leave in the Philippines, what U.S. soldier only went sight seeing and taste testing roadside market Chicken Adobo and pancit in that situation? 

And I have never read about any of Oswald's military acquaintances ever stating anything suggesting Oswald wasn't attracted to members of the opposite sex. Were any of them even asked about Oswald's sexual inclinations, comments or extra-curricular activities?

Also, Oswald did have some discrimination as far as his standard for attractiveness in the women he pursued. Marina was a true blue eyed beauty. Judyth Vary Baker resembled a young Ava Gardner. I wonder if Hollies was also very attractive herself?

If Hollies looked like Anna Lewis or Ruth Paine , I would doubt her story even more.

 

 

 

[John Butler]

12 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

John:

thanks for posting the excerpts from Mary Hollies's Oral History interview. Her statements contain some mind-boggling data, of course, if her recollections are truthful. 

Below is her statement for the FBI. It is one of many statements the FBI took from the Depository employees, and all these statements are in CE 1381. The remarkable thing is that all the statements follow the same template and are as non-informative as possible. The FBI did not want to hear about any employees' encounters with Lee Oswald at all.

Regarding the thread itself, I believe that Lee Oswald rode a bus to work regularly but nobody, no even the first generation researchers, chose to ask the bus drivers about Lee Oswald. It is a shame, however, Oswald was likewise not asked about how he got from his room at North Beckley to the Texas Theater. Postal Inspector Holmes was asked by the Warren Commission about whether the interrogators have probed Lee Oswald on his exact route from North Beckley to the Texas Theater, and Holmes conferred he had assumed that this point was already clarified in previous interrogation sessions... There was no genuine interest in learning about Lee Oswald's way of life, his contacts and how he spent time. The most efficient way how not to learn anything of significance from a suspect is to allow him to be killed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Andrej,

That's the problem.  Are her recollections truthful?  I am aware of the statement by Mary Hollies on March 19, 1964.  By this time the word was out that people who knew something were being shot and some killed.  We need to keep this in mind when reading a witness statement months after the assassination.  There is another statement she made on February 18, 1964.  This is it:

And, then there is her later statements at the 6th floor museum.  I went over these sometime back when I was working on the "Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza" thread.  She is one of the 54 witnesses in that thread that said something different from the official story.

I like the part about her being on the 5th floor rather than the 4th floor where there is some photographic evidence of that.  It's a bit suspicious and really suspicious if what she said was true in her later statement. 

All of her statements about the shooting and where the president was can be interpreted as the presidential limousine was on Houston, starting down Elm Street, or passing by the TSBD.  And, that is not the official story.

This is mainly why Mary Hollies has to be discredited.  She may have creditability problems in other areas. 

12 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

This part of Mrs. Hollies's recollection can hardly be true. Candy Barr was released from jail on April 1, 1963 and was not allowed to live, not to mention giving any striptease performances, in Dallas. She lived in Edna, Texas (about 5 hour drive from Dallas) during the time of President's assassination. How could Lee Oswald attend her party on Davis Street, Dallas in Autumn of 1963?

 I don't know anything about this.  Could you amplify? 

There were other things she said that raised flags.  But, the testimony about the shooting seems to be consistent.  That's why I used her as one of the 50+ witnesses in Mass Hysteria.

Edited June 24, 2020 by John Butler

[John Butler]

On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 7:35 PM, John Butler said:

We had the perfect place to watch.” (Some researchers believe that Mary Hollies was on the 4th floor but she insists that she was on the 5th floor and later moved to the 4th) We could see the president and Jackie coming down Houston and then…. we thought a cannon had gone off.

I wonder what was said by Mary in the section of that sentence represented by the ….?   What had to be left out?