1953-54: Harvey and Lee in Three Consecutive School Semesters

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Robert Montenegro said:

I have a question for everyone who believes the "...two Oswalds..." senario: who planned that covert caper?

I would imagine elements involved in covert action within US military intelligence, Federal Bureau of Narcotics, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Office of Policy Coordination and Central Intelligence Agency had something to do with it (maybe even Jean Valentin Grombach's "The Pond" organization, Jack Young Canon's "Z-Unit" or Charles Andrew Willoughby's "Field Operations Intelligence").

But who?

Better yet, what was the original purpose to have such an operation, a body double for a young boy and his mother?!

I have read the bulk of John Armstrong's work and it is a brilliant display of analytical reasoning, but why have that type of operation?

And another question for anyone on the forum, what happened to the body doubles? Who cared for them?

If they're usefulness was done after the murder of President Kennedy, shouldn't they have been "disposed" of?

Just seems like these question have never been answered properly and should, before the rabbit hole reaches the core...

Robert,

I believe the Oswald project was created by American Intel (around or just prior to the time the CIA was created) and its purpose was to give a Russian-speaking youth an American I.D. so he could travel to the Soviet Union as a false defector and pretend he didn’t understand the Russian language. The whole idea was to give the Russian-speaking LHO experiences as similar as possible to the American-born LHO so he could pass a background check by Soviet authorities.

For example, we have presented evidence that both LHOs attended Beauregard School in New Orleans.  Why?

Imagine a Soviet official in Moscow looking into the background of this “defector.”  With a little info from an asset in the United States, he might ask a question such as this: “Say, Comrade, this Beauregard School you go to; where you eat lunch there--first floor, second floor, third, basement, roof? Where?”

Potential questions such as that required that the long-term impostor have as many experiences as possible similar to the birth LHO.  A real key here is the Russian language skills of the kid who assumed the identity of LHO, who had substantial Russian language skills before he ever set foot in the Soviet Union.

An excellent and reasonably concise description of LHO’s Russian language abilities is presented by Dr. James Norwood here:

Oswald’s Proficiency in the Russian Language

As to what happened to the two LHOs, one (the Russian-speaking youth) was shot dead by Jack Ruby. The other may have been allowed to live.  John Armstrong did a lot of work researching this, but he was never confident enough in his findings to even mention them in the book.  But if you’re interested in one theory, try Goggling “Donald O. Norton”, but don’t confuse the results with CIA agent “Donald P. Norton.” 

[David Josephs]

9 hours ago, Robert Montenegro said:

I have a question for everyone who believes the "...two Oswalds..." senario: who planned that covert caper?

If I had to guess it would be in the Angleton camp...  probably Angleton himself... ultimately the Oswald case was Russian Counter-Intelligence, JJA the man, myth and legend

9 hours ago, Robert Montenegro said:

Better yet, what was the original purpose to have such an operation, a body double for a young boy and his mother?!

To create a ironclad backstory allowing us to put US Intel observer in the Soviet Union.   
It's not said much, but we were getting our butts kicked by the KGB post WWII and our own intel operations inside Russia were pathetic.

Other intel agencies in Europe and USSR had been using doubles as their intel services were much more inventive than we were.
Until JJA came along.

9 hours ago, Robert Montenegro said:

And another question for anyone on the forum, what happened to the body doubles? Who cared for them?

If they're usefulness was done after the murder of President Kennedy, shouldn't they have been "disposed" of?

One of them was with his killer.... the other, the natural born Lee Oswald, we've had ideas...  I think if you search on Donald Norton here, you'll find some discussion on it.

The real Lee may have become as elusive as George Joannides - "disposing" of Lee may have been as simple as stationing him out of the US.  Atsugi ?

Notice something please Robert... Lee wrote his mother often while in the Marines.. weekly in some cases... yet in all of the WC we do not have any of these letters... only the letters after he leaves the marines... from HARVEY.  Why?   the addresses of letters from Lee to Marge would not have the correct addresses...  

These are all addresses for short, fat Marge...  Lee's mother only lived in 3 places in Ft Worth... 7408 Ewing, 3300 Willing and 1505 8th street...

Oooops.   

Below is a WCR H&E list of all letters from Lee Harvey...  nothing from Lee between 1956 and 1959....  curious right?

Hope that addresses you questions Robert...
DJ

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

Jim,

Note that in the  above affidavit, Erwin Lewis states that it was "common knowledge" in the squadron that LHO could read, write, and speak Russian.

Jim, what is "common knowledge?" Where did it come from? Did the Warren Commission contact everybody in the Squadron to confirm that they each knew that LHO could read write, and speak Russian?

What? The Warren Commission didn't do that? Well then, what about you? Did you confirm that it was common knowledge? Hey man, you posted that affidavit and it's your responsibility to make sure it is accurate. Without that confirmation, Erwin Lewis has lost all credibility and his affidavit will have to be thrown out! Furthermore, you must discontinue posting this affidavit and propagating what I have now shown to be disinformation.

Once you've done that, then we can move onto the Beauregard evidence because, you know, I have an open mind on these matters and am only interested in getting to the truth.

heh  heh

 

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

18 hours ago, Mark Stevens said:

 Not once do I make even a passing reference to a courtroom situation. I don't know why you would say that when it isn't true.

I’m sorry, Mark, but I suspect the fault for this is mine.

I suggested that the crack H&L squad’s posts here are subject to their critics’ cross-examination. But, no, I was assured, this is not a court room. (Though I could swear I saw a kangaroo.)

And here I thought they were soliciting responses to their posts.

Silly me.

I also demurred when the crack H&L squad has repeatedly referred to “testimony” from the Armstrong witnesses. Since none of them was sworn in under oath, and since their recollections were never subject to cross-examination, they were interesting chats but weren’t actually... you know.... testimony.

Again, silly me.

(Cue the introduction of definition number five, the least used and most arcane possible use of “testimony.” There; saved the crack H&L team some effort.)

Mark, I'm sorry that you’ve been tarred with my brush.

Clearly, it is difficult for some people with keen attention to detail to discern the difference between two different Forum posters.. who are... you know... different. Somehow, the two different posters fuse into one.  I wonder what would cause such a propensity.

At least nobody has referred to you as Mark Edwards in... like... days.

Btw - Perry Mason was Matlock for the generation preceding yours, I suspect. (Though I'm sure you knew that.)

There’s nothing like contemporary references to keep a zinger tart.

To Mark, Tony, Jeremy and the others, I extend respect for valiantly demonstrating the falsity of a hypothesis to those who will hear none of it anyway.

[Sandy Larsen]

34 minutes ago, Robert Charles-Dunne said:

I also demurred when the crack H&L squad has repeatedly referred to “testimony” from the Armstrong witnesses. Since none of them was sworn in under oath, and since their recollections were never subject to cross-examination, they were interesting chats but weren’t actually... you know.... testimony.

 

It is I who uses the word "testimony" for unsworn statements made by witnesses. And I do so properly given that we are not practicing law here. One doesn't need to be sworn in to testify to something.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Jim,

Note that in the  above affidavit, Erwin Lewis states that it was "common knowledge" in the squadron that LHO could read, write, and speak Russian.

Jim, what is "common knowledge?" Where did it come from? Did the Warren Commission contact everybody in the Squadron to confirm that they each knew that LHO could read write, and speak Russian?

What? The Warren Commission didn't do that? Well then, what about you? Did you confirm that it was common knowledge? Hey man, you posted that affidavit and it's your responsibility to make sure it is accurate. Without that confirmation, Erwin Lewis has lost all credibility and his affidavit will have to be thrown out! Furthermore, you must discontinue posting this affidavit and propagating what I have now shown to be disinformation.

Once you've done that, then we can move onto the Beauregard evidence because, you know, I have an open mind on these matters and am only interested in getting to the truth.

heh  heh

That's very funny!  You know them all too well....

“Oswald subscribed to a newspaper printed in Russian, which I believe he said was published in San Francisco.”

–James Anthony Botelho, from his Marine affidavit of June 3, 1964.

Here's an image of a Russian language newspaper printed in San Francisco that is probably similar to the one Oswald reportedly read in the Marine corps while stationed in California.  

 

Can you imagine teaching yourself in your spare time to read a newspaper like this?  Interesting, too, that it bills itself as an "Anticommunist Newspaper."

[Robert Montenegro]

10 hours ago, David Josephs said:

If I had to guess it would be in the Angleton camp...  probably Angleton himself... ultimately the Oswald case was Russian Counter-Intelligence, JJA the man, myth and legend

To create a ironclad backstory allowing us to put US Intel observer in the Soviet Union.   
It's not said much, but we were getting our butts kicked by the KGB post WWII and our own intel operations inside Russia were pathetic.

 

13 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Robert,

I believe the Oswald project was created by American Intel (around or just prior to the time the CIA was created) and its purpose was to give a Russian-speaking youth an American I.D. so he could travel to the Soviet Union as a false defector and pretend he didn’t understand the Russian language.

As to what happened to the two LHOs, one (the Russian-speaking youth) was shot dead by Jack Ruby. The other may have been allowed to live.  John Armstrong did a lot of work researching this, but he was never confident enough in his findings to even mention them in the book.  But if you’re interested in one theory, try Googling “Donald O. Norton”, but don’t confuse the results with CIA agent “Donald P. Norton.” 

Thank you Mr. Hargrove, Mr. Josephs, gentlemen, your responses were both concise and prompt.

I have long suspected United States Army Reserve Lt. Col. Robert Trumbull "The Crow" Crowley as being the man in the "Angleton Camp" (to borrow your phase, Mr. Josephs) who was in charge of running a "body double" operation, as his position for nearly thirty years was Deputy Director of the Clandestine Operations Division and was the CIA's senior liaison to the Counterintelligence Branch.

Lt. Col. Crowley was in a prime position to oversee a joint Directorate of Plans-Counterintelligence operation that, in all likelihood, involved the Technical Services Staff of Sidney Gottlieb, as the idea of grooming or making a body-double means cosmetic surgery, make-up, acting lessons, psychological conditioning and mental programing.

You know, all of that MK-Ultra jazz...

Incidentally, Lt. Col. Crowley also oversaw Robert Edward Webster's REDSKIN files, so there is that to consider as well. 

Like I said, I read the bulk of John Armstrong's work, so I am aware of Donald O. Norton, but him being the second Oswald I'm not too sure about.

Real Twilight Zone stuff there, but then again, what aspect of the murder of President Kennedy isn't?

Covert operations are Hollywood productions and the Kennedy assassination is a Cecil B. DeMille epic...

Edited August 5, 2020 by Robert Montenegro

[Robert Charles-Dunne]

7 hours ago, Robert Charles-Dunne said:

I also demurred when the crack H&L squad has repeatedly referred to “testimony” from the Armstrong witnesses. Since none of them was sworn in under oath, and since their recollections were never subject to cross-examination, they were interesting chats but weren’t actually... you know.... testimony.

Again, silly me.

(Cue the introduction of definition number five, the least used and most arcane possible use of “testimony.” There; saved the crack H&L team some effort.)

Like clockwork.

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It is I who uses the word "testimony" for unsworn statements made by witnesses.

After I even saved you the effort?

That’s funny.  

You see, all English dictionaries have as their number one definition variants of what is contained in the Merriam-Webster English Dictionary:

“A solemn declaration usually made orally by a witness under oath in response to interrogation by a lawyer or authorized public official.”

You know, the way the vast majority of the English speaking world defines "testimony."

Or, in layman’s terms, the polar opposite of what you declared.

But by all means, alter the meanings of words as your inclination requires.

If you're going to ignore when your own witnesses' "testimony" differs from the H&L script, why let mere meanings of words get in your way?

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

And I do so properly given that we are not practicing law here.

Voodoo?

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

One doesn't need to be sworn in to testify to something.

True.

But equally true is that, unless it meets the criteria as cited by only every English Dictionary known to mankind, it lacks any legal veracity.  You know... a compelling reason to believe it.

It’s what is known in professional circles as a “chat.”

That you insist that your own witnesses' "testimony" is wrong where it differs from your dogma, exemplifies your definition of the word.

Do continue.

[Tony Krome]

17 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Oswald project

Earlier in this thread, Mr. Norwood provided an insight as to why the Marguerite Imposter frequently moved;

 If the schools were not receiving the documentation and Oswald's mother was not cooperating with full disclosure about previous schooling, the principal in the current school would have been applying pressure on the mother to account for the kid's previous records.  If the pressure became too intense, the Oswald imposter mother would pack up and move out-of-state.  Hence the rapid switches from New York to New Orleans to Texas to New Orleans and back again to Texas.  

The above quoted text implies that the Marguerite Imposter moved about due to personal pressure.

My question is: Do you believe the decisions to make "rapid switches" were made autonomously by the Marguerite Imposter?

I would appreciate a response to this question

Edited August 5, 2020 by Tony Krome

[John Butler]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 5:29 PM, David Josephs said:

IDK Mark... but one man looks like one boy... while the other looks like the other...

Can't make things much more simple than this....  do with it what you may... it's fairly obvious those 2 marines are not the same person...

 

David has correctly pointed out one of the very distinguishing characteristics of Lee Oswald.  You can't hide body skeleton/posture shapes.  But, you can hide Lee Oswald.  Think of that for a moment.  Harvey replaces Lee beginning in the Marine Corps.  Harvey becomes the patsy and dies.  Lee, perhaps lives on. 

So, what about Lee's life before he is replaced by Harvey.  Lee has to disappear.  Everything about Lee has to be replaced by Harvey.  This includes photos.  Every photo of Lee has to be replaced by a Harvey photo or Harvey has to be edited into the Lee photo.  So, the slanting shoulders are a good identifier of Lee.  In the Marine Corps training class photo we have Lee with Harvey's face.  Or, at least enough of Harvey's face to make the photo Harvey.  This Marine photo is very interesting example of editing.  This individual has Harvey's chin, nose, ears (earlobes and the left ear with two bends in the upper rim) and Lee's shoulders.  And, the more you argue about this whose who (everyone sees things from their perspective) the better job the photo editors did.

Consider this whose Harvey and whose Lee photo montage. 

  

The 1959 photo has been identified as Lee mainly by his sloping shoulders.  I contend, though this is Lee's shoulders, that the face is of Harvey.  Working on the principle that Lee has to be replaced in every photo possible.  Why?  Harvey has a narrow chin, long but relatively narrow nose, and earlobes.  Another characteristic of Harvey which can be see in the 1963 photo is that he has a receding hairline that he covers with a comb over.  In fact the 1963 comb over covers the 1959 receding Hairline of Harvey. 

Look at the middle photo that David has indicated is Lee due to the sloping shoulders.  This individual (this is from a Lee and Marina photo) has a full head of hair and no sign of a receding hairline or comb over.  If you will also notice his left ear he has no earlobe to speak of and the upper rim lacks the two bends characteristic of Harvey.

The 1959 photo is very interesting.  It is a good example of the contradictory evidence associated with Lee and Harvey. 

It has two dates associated with it.  Neither one maybe correct since they are provided by Robert Oswald.

   

The caption on the photo says Lee and Robert went hunting in Feb., 1958 while he was home on leave.  Lee was in the Philippines in 1958 and there is no evidence he took leave there and Harvey was AWOL at the Pfisterer Dental Labs New Orleans.

Later Robert says this photo was taken when Lee came home discharged from the service about September 12, 1959.

Neither one of the dates may be true since this is a false photo that combines Lee and Harvey.  Why would the information be true if he photo is not?

The folks at Harvey and Lee won't like this assessment since it puts Lee in Russia with Marina in 1961.  Then the issue becomes where's Harvey if the 1961 photo if that is Lee? 

I can only speculate.  Harvey's out doing spy stuff while Lee's with Marina being monitored by about 30 KGB agents.  I would think that's how a double spy team works. 

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

Earlier in this thread, Mr. Norwood provided an insight as to why the Marguerite Imposter frequently moved;

 If the schools were not receiving the documentation and Oswald's mother was not cooperating with full disclosure about previous schooling, the principal in the current school would have been applying pressure on the mother to account for the kid's previous records.  If the pressure became too intense, the Oswald imposter mother would pack up and move out-of-state.  Hence the rapid switches from New York to New Orleans to Texas to New Orleans and back again to Texas.  

The above quoted text implies that the Marguerite Imposter moved about due to personal pressure.

My question is: Do you believe the decisions to make "rapid switches" were made autonomously by the Marguerite Imposter?

I would appreciate a response to this question

I think Mysterious Marge fled NYC to Stanley, ND (summer 1953) and then to New Orleans (fall 1953) not so much because of previous schooling documentation problems but because her charge’s truancy had entangled him with the New York legal system and she (and her handler?) simply couldn’t risk the legal scrutiny.  The American-born LHO was still enrolled at PS44 in NYC.  John A. cites several instances when she couldn’t produce her own documentation to employers for insurance or bonding requirements.

I’d certainly think that the Marguerite impostor had someone more or less overseeing her actions, but if there is any evidence for this in John’s research, I can’t think of it.  Maybe someone else here can.

[Jim Hargrove]

11 hours ago, Robert Montenegro said:

 

Thank you Mr. Hargrove, Mr. Josephs, gentlemen, your responses were both concise and prompt.

I have long suspected United States Army Reserve Lt. Col. Robert Trumbull "The Crow" Crowley as being the man in the "Angleton Camp" (to borrow your phase, Mr. Josephs) who was in charge of running a "body double" operation, as his position for nearly thirty years was Deputy Director of the Clandestine Operations Division and was the CIA's senior liaison to the Counterintelligence Branch.

Lt. Col. Crowley was in a prime position to oversee a joint Directorate of Plans-Counterintelligence operation that, in all likelihood, involved the Technical Services Staff of Sidney Gottlieb, as the idea of grooming or making a body-double means cosmetic surgery, make-up, acting lessons, psychological conditioning and mental programing.

You know, all of that MK-Ultra jazz...

Incidentally, Lt. Col. Crowley also oversaw Robert Edward Webster's REDSKIN files, so there is that to consider as well. 

Like I said, I read the bulk of John Armstrong's work, so I am aware of Donald O. Norton, but him being the second Oswald I'm not too sure about.

Real Twilight Zone stuff there, but then again, what aspect of the murder of President Kennedy isn't?

Covert operations are Hollywood productions and the Kennedy assassination is a Cecil B. DeMille epic...

Interesting.  A quick googling of Crowley led to all kinds of hits.  Is there more info out there supporting your suspicion?  Can you recommend a good starting place to look for it?  Speaking of MK/Ultra....

Louise Robertson was a housekeeper in NYC, employed by the Marguerite Oswald impostor for 6 weeks in the summer of 1953 to clean her apartment 2 or 3 days per week. Mrs. "Oswald" (the impostor) told Louise that she had brought her son to New York so that he could have mental tests performed at the Jacobi Hospital. Could young HARVEY Oswald, instead of truanting, have been spending some of his days receiving psychiatric evaluation, mental tests, drug induced hypnosis?

--from The Early Years of Harvey and Lee

[James Norwood]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I’d certainly think that the Marguerite impostor had someone more or less overseeing her actions, but if there is any evidence for this in John’s research, I can’t think of it.  Maybe someone else here can.

According to Georgia Bell, the neighbor of the Marguerite imposter residing on San Saba in Fort Worth, the slovenly neighbor who lived alone with the little boy was periodically visited by "men in suits."  Mrs. Bell found that striking and vividly recalled those visits nearly a half century later.

I have several questions for Mr. Krome:  It is always a taxing experience to make a move, especially for young children.  It is stressful and challenging to arrive at a new school in midstream both in the social stress of trying to make new friends and in the cognitive area of trying to get up to speed with the rest of the class.  So, how do you explain the frequent moves from the perspective of the young student shuttled around from Fort Worth to New York to New Orleans to Fort Worth to New Orleans and back to Fort Worth, and, in the process, becoming fluent in the Russian language?  Why was the mother making such frequent moves, and how did the kid become proficient in Russian?

I look forward to your response to my question.

[Jonathan Cohen]

9 hours ago, John Butler said:

 

   

Neither one of the dates may be true since this is a false photo that combines Lee and Harvey.  Why would the information be true if he photo is not?

A false photo that combines Lee and Harvey? Huh? Falsified by who? Why? And then forcibly included in Robert Oswald's 1967 book? Why is it that H&L believers fail to accept that human beings sometimes get dates and times wrong, years after the fact? Is it so impossible to believe that Robert was simply incorrect about the date he put in the caption?

Edited August 5, 2020 by Jonathan Cohen

[Mark Stevens]

On 8/4/2020 at 9:53 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

Note that in the  above affidavit, Erwin Lewis states that it was "common knowledge" in the squadron that LHO could read, write, and speak Russian.

Jim, what is "common knowledge?" Where did it come from? Did the Warren Commission contact everybody in the Squadron to confirm that they each knew that LHO could read write, and speak Russian?

What? The Warren Commission didn't do that? Well then, what about you? Did you confirm that it was common knowledge? Hey man, you posted that affidavit and it's your responsibility to make sure it is accurate. Without that confirmation, Erwin Lewis has lost all credibility and his affidavit will have to be thrown out! Furthermore, you must discontinue posting this affidavit and propagating what I have now shown to be disinformation.

Once you've done that, then we can move onto the Beauregard evidence because, you know, I have an open mind on these matters and am only interested in getting to the truth.

heh  heh

 

20 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

That's very funny!  You know them all too well....

“Oswald subscribed to a newspaper printed in Russian, which I believe he said was published in San Francisco.”

–James Anthony Botelho, from his Marine affidavit of June 3, 1964.

Here's an image of a Russian language newspaper printed in San Francisco that is probably similar to the one Oswald reportedly read in the Marine corps while stationed in California.  

[Picture removed from reply] 

Can you imagine teaching yourself in your spare time to read a newspaper like this?  Interesting, too, that it bills itself as an "Anticommunist Newspaper."

The absolute irony of this is that in your overzealous urge to zing it to ole Mark, you have actually zung (zung?) it to yourselves.

You have clearly provided examples of actual common knowledge. While you try to misrepresent my point and make it:

Quote

Jim, what is "common knowledge?" Where did it come from? Did the Warren Commission contact everybody in the Squadron to confirm that they each knew that LHO could read write, and speak Russian?

This is in no way what I was saying, and you absolutely know this. You just wanted to try to be witty and snarky, instead you have proven my point.

Multiple people within Oswald's squadron, namely most of them, were aware of Oswald's Russian "abilities." This fact makes that particular situation common knowledge.

Quote

Definition of common knowledge
: something that many or most people know

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/common knowledge

So, when many or most of the members of Oswald's squad seen and heard him speaking Russian, this made it common knowledge.

When 3 people out of possibly thousands stated that Oswald attended Stripling, this wasn't common knowledge. Since most or many students and faculty have no inkling of this event, it is not common knowledge.

Maybe next time you'll actually show me a thing or two.

Until then...