James DiEugenio Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 (edited) Don McGovern turned his book, Murder Orthodoxies, into a web site. I cannot recommend it enough. It is simply heroic. To have read that many bad books and to have distilled them as he has? I could not have come close to doing it. You will see so much BS exposed here. Take particular attention to what he does to Clemmons, the first cop at her house, who told at least three whoppers about the crime scene. He slices and dices George Smathers, Kennedy's false friend. What he does to Robert Slatzer is a total demolition job. In the JFK case, you have some degree of quality control since most of us check out other people's work and comment on it. No such mechanism exists in the MM world. In fact the hoaxsters actually support each other for monetary gain and 15 minutes of fame.. They cash in on MM for a quick buck and to add to the sensationalism. Don also goes after that POS Double Cross and Giancana owning MM. Truly one of the worst books ever written on both JFK and MM. Let me point out one last issue. There have been many documentaries made on this subject, from all over the world, including Australia and England. Try and get a decent documentary made on the RFK case, or the MLK case. But yet, this kind of tripe gets made often. American culture has had a bad influence on the English speaking world. Consider this a Xmas gift. https://marilynfromthe22ndrow.com/wp/murder-orthodoxies/?fbclid=IwAR2oGnYFLNDZ8LSoy3jFZ0xxMRCUXDYqlrpRoorupjN76yq7nn4WOgKHC3Y Edited December 12, 2020 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cory Santos Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Don McGovern turned his book, Murder Orthodoxies, into a web site. I cannot recommend it enough. It is simply heroic. To have read that many bad books and to have distilled them as he has? I could not have come close to doing it. You will see so much BS exposed here. Take particular attention to what he does to Clemmons, the first cop at her house, who told at least three whoppers about the crime scene. He slices and dices George Smathers, Kennedy's false friend. What he does to Robert Slatzer is a total demolition job. In the JFK case, you have some degree of quality control since most of us check out other people's work and comment on it. No such mechanism exists in the MM world. In fact the hoaxsters actually support each other for monetary gain and 15 minutes of fame.. They cash in on MM for a quick buck and to add to the sensationalism. Don also goes after that POS Double Cross and Giancana owning MM. Truly one of the worst books ever written on both JFK and MM. Let me point out only last issue. There have been many documentaries made on this subject, from all over the world, including Australia and England. Try and get a decent documentary made on the RFK case, or the MLK case. But yet, this kind of tripe gets made often. American culture has had a bad influence on the English speaking world. Consider this a Xmas gift. https://marilynfromthe22ndrow.com/wp/murder-orthodoxies/?fbclid=IwAR2oGnYFLNDZ8LSoy3jFZ0xxMRCUXDYqlrpRoorupjN76yq7nn4WOgKHC3Y Lots of reading. I will let you know after I get it read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Bulman Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 This does get deep in a hurry. Section 16 on the Murder Orthodoxies is quite interesting though I didn't delve into the sub titles at the bottom of that page yet. Initially section 11 on the Botched Autopsy seemed somewhat shallow. But the sub title The Autopsy Report is outstanding. Not only the depth but the analysis of the perversion of it by multiple authors. The part on the toxicology report is fascinating. She OD'd period. Likely on purpose, maybe not given her use of the drugs in hers system at the time over the prior weeks. McGovern is quite thorough in just those parts. Much more to explore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 Wait until you get to the whole helicopter section. He actually goes into the history of the helicopter. And man, his section on Slatzer. To think that Tony Summers and Donald Wolfe took this guy seriously and mentioned him over 150 times in both of their books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph McBride Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 For what it's worth, Rupert Allan, Marilyn's longtime publicist, when I asked him how he thought she died, told me she had little bottles of Champagne around her room and would guzzle them. He said the night she died, he thought she drank them with too many pills. He said she told him she was upset because Peter Lawford had invited her to his Santa Monica house along with a bunch of call girls and that she thought Lawford and his set thought of her as in the same category. Rupert's account of the drink and pills doesn't explain the absence of drugs in her stomach. Rupert told me an interesting story she told him: When she was in the New York hospital after her "miscarriage" when she was married to Arthur Miller, she was thinking of committing suicide by jumping out of her eighth-floor window. But she looked out and saw a woman in a green coat standing at a bus stop and decided not to jump because she might land on the woman and kill her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted December 13, 2020 Author Share Posted December 13, 2020 (edited) Don deals with both of those points in his writings. MM's past self-destructive behavior and the autopsy findings. Frank Capell really twisted both of those. Edited December 13, 2020 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 On 12/12/2020 at 11:33 PM, Joseph McBride said: For what it's worth, Rupert Allan, Marilyn's longtime publicist, when I asked him how he thought she died, told me she had little bottles of Champagne around her room and would guzzle them. He said the night she died, he thought she drank them with too many pills. He said she told him she was upset because Peter Lawford had invited her to his Santa Monica house along with a bunch of call girls and that she thought Lawford and his set thought of her as in the same category. Rupert's account of the drink and pills doesn't explain the absence of drugs in her stomach. Rupert told me an interesting story she told him: When she was in the New York hospital after her "miscarriage" when she was married to Arthur Miller, she was thinking of committing suicide by jumping out of her eighth-floor window. But she looked out and saw a woman in a green coat standing at a bus stop and decided not to jump because she might land on the woman and kill her. Wondering what to make of these second hand claims J. McBride recounts in his post regards MM and her death above. If there was an absence of drugs in MM's stomach, does that nullify Rupert Allan's take on her death cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cory Santos Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 33 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said: Wondering what to make of these second hand claims J. McBride recounts in his post regards MM and her death above. If there was an absence of drugs in MM's stomach, does that nullify Rupert Allan's take on her death cause? Joe the absence of drugs is no big deal, or so you will be told. Considering she took 47 pills- 4 times the lethal limit for barbiturates- without any water and did not regurgitate, if you believe this I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you. You are asking the right questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted October 30, 2023 Author Share Posted October 30, 2023 (edited) Cory I guess knows more about causes of death through barbiturates than Wecht, Noguchi and Boyd Stephens. Do they all sell property in Arizona? Or else Cory has been reading too much of Slatzer. (I think its the latter myself.) Don initiates this issue in his book on pgs 487 -489. Wecht puts the time of death at 2 Am; prior to that MM slipped into a deep sleep, semi-coma and then a coma. "He also noted that her bodily functions would have continued until Marilyn's lungs and then finally her heart succumbed...." In other words her bodily functions continued long enough for the digestive tract to dissolve the capsules she ingested and long enough for her liver to start metabolizing the barbiturates. That last is the key point, and its why I italicized it, since it proves what Wecht was saying was correct. Don did his homework on this and how it relates to the whole issue of injection vs ingestion. And he expands on this proof on pages 492-95. For example, Nembutal is a short acting acid, which is quickly absorbed through the body resulting in a high liver concentration. Dr. Boyd Stephens also agreed with this: "the metabolic process had reached the stage where much of the toxic material had already reached the liver and was in the process of at least beginning the excretion process." (p. 494) First Giancana, then the note where Cory left out the why, then the tiger that turned out to be made of paper mache, and now this. Do we grant four strikes at this forum? Edited October 30, 2023 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Griffith Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 Reality check: McGovern is a love-struck Marilyn Monroe fan who can't even admit that she was promiscuous and who denies that she had any kind of a sexual relationship with RFK. McGovern is also very anti-conspiracy theory. In fact, he calls himself a "Non-Conspiracist" on his website and repeatedly condemns and derides "conspiracy theorists" and "conspiracists." But apparently Jim is okay with that because he's determined to reject LAPD whistleblower Mike Rothmiller's historic disclosures, since those disclosures include negative information about JFK and RFK, even though Rothmiller has a sterling record as an anti-CIA, anti-FBI, and anti-police corruption whistleblower. Jim likes McGovern's love-struck research because McGovern rejects Rothmiller and Thompson's important new book Bombshell. Jim doesn't seem to mind that McGovern seems to view conspiracy theories as irresponsible and fringe. McGovern derides Dorothy Kilgallen as a "gossip columnist" in his attacks on Mark Shaw's book Collateral Damage. As most here know, Dorothy was much more than a "gossip columnist." McGovern also claims that Rothmiller simply fabricated the pages from Marilyn's diaries. When anyone documents Fletcher Prouty's many bogus claims, some of which were downright nutty, and documents Prouty's prolonged close association with Holocaust deniers and anti-Semites, one of the first arguments that Jim and other Prouty apologists will make is "that's what John McAdams said about Prouty!" (never mind the fact that some of Prouty's fiercest critics have been diehard liberals). But, Jim doesn't mind citing and praising Don McGovern, even though McGovern touts himself as a "non-conspiracist." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cory Santos Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 11 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Cory I guess knows more about causes of death through barbiturates than Wecht, Noguchi and Boyd Stephens. Do they all sell property in Arizona? Or else Cory has been reading too much of Slatzer. (I think its the latter myself.) Don initiates this issue in his book on pgs 487 -489. Wecht puts the time of death at 2 Am; prior to that MM slipped into a deep sleep, semi-coma and then a coma. "He also noted that her bodily functions would have continued until Marilyn's lungs and then finally her heart succumbed...." In other words her bodily functions continued long enough for the digestive tract to dissolve the capsules she ingested and long enough for her liver to start metabolizing the barbiturates. That last is the key point, and its why I italicized it, since it proves what Wecht was saying was correct. Don did his homework on this and how it relates to the whole issue of injection vs ingestion. And he expands on this proof on pages 492-95. For example, Nembutal is a short acting acid, which is quickly absorbed through the body resulting in a high liver concentration. Dr. Boyd Stephens also agreed with this: "the metabolic process had reached the stage where much of the toxic material had already reached the liver and was in the process of at least beginning the excretion process." (p. 494) First Giancana, then the note where Cory left out the why, then the tiger that turned out to be made of paper mache, and now this. Do we grant four strikes at this forum? You have no clue what you just wrote. You really don’t because it has nothing to do with what I wrote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Backes Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 I wish he would re-release his book. Websites are good, but I like books too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 My two cents. JFK was a bit of a playboy, but no more so than many other men of his era. (Think Don Draper.) He was good looking charismatic and famous, and women THREW themselves at him. Beyond kicks, he had an extra incentive in such dalliances, moreover. He knew his days were numbered. Get it while you can. As far as RFK, all facts point to his being a devoted family man, with a sexually energetic soul mate with whom he popped out a tribe. People HATED Bobby for his self-righteousness and thought his and Ethel's productivity vulgar. This hatred carried on way past his death, moreover, and led to "rumors" of his "affairs" with Jackie and Marilyn, etc. It's 100% bs. When you look at the source of most of this stuff, moreover, it's quite quite often late night phone calls with the likes of Truman Capote, which no one seemed to remember until after Capote's death. Garbage. Hateful garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted October 31, 2023 Author Share Posted October 31, 2023 12 hours ago, Cory Santos said: You have no clue what you just wrote. You really don’t because it has nothing to do with what I wrote. Anyone who can read can see that both Wecht and Stephens explained specifically what happened to the pills and they are in quotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cory Santos Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 26 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said: Anyone who can read can see that both Wecht and Stephens explained specifically what happened to the pills and they are in quotes. Jim share with everyone. How did she consume 47 pills without water and without vomiting? I know in Fantasyland certain rules do not apply but I can assure you that you need to answer this point-which your quote of others work does not. Hence why I stated what I did about your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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