Another popular myth debunked...

[Mark Tyler]

On 12/20/2020 at 9:00 AM, Joe Bauer said:

It also strongly bolsters S.A. Greer's Warren Commission testimony that he never saw this indentation until "the day after 11,22,1963."

Greer seems to be a very reliable witness.  His early statements and Warren Commission testimony perfectly match what we see in the Zapruder film.

On 12/20/2020 at 9:00 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Seriously, if the picture we are looking at above is the JFK/Dealey Plaza limo and this picture was taken in June of 1963, in the least it proves S.A. Geis's statement of the indentation's provenance is false and whether deliberately or negligently, highly suspicious in it's promotion either way.

Indeed, the debunking of the Geis statement is important as it forces the dent to be caused by either the Z313 head shot or a separate bullet entirely (presumably fired after Z313 as I see nothing in the Z-film before that time to suggest Greer or Kellerman are distracted by such a conspicuous event).

[Mark Tyler]

On 12/21/2020 at 11:20 AM, Joe Bauer said:

One must assume someone on the Commission felt the indentation with 5 inches of raised steel metal uplifted above it and side to side was so obvious and unsightly enough that it seems illogical that those responsible for maintaining the showiest car in the presidential fleet would have let it remain. And for two years?

Indeed, for a show car this blemish would not be tolerated.

On 12/21/2020 at 11:20 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Was this show limo flown overseas for use as well?

It seems that the limo was also in Ireland in June 1963 as per this blog post from @Vince Palamara:

http://jfkbubbletop.blogspot.com/2016/10/excellent-security-for-jfk-june-1963.html

I did notice that some photos have a licence plate "GX 200" rather than "GG 300":

The limo in Berlin 1963 used "GG 300", the same as on November 22:

https://www.fu-berlin.de/en/sites/kennedy/index.html

[Denny Zartman]

Greer's testimony on this seems to be compelling, in my opinion.

Quote

Mr. GREER. Since joining the Secret Service I was assigned to the uniform force at first with the Secret Service at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. For about 2 years I was with the physical education part of it. We had a gymnasium there. I was an instructor there part-time part of the time. And then I was assigned for about 2 years to pick up the food of the President at the White House. I had that duty for about 2 years. And then I went back to the Treasury for a short period, a few months. And then I was reassigned to the White House as an agent in November--1950 I went there. I was made a full agent that following August 1951. I was there as a special officer from November to August 1951.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you been assigned to the White House staff since that time?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I have been there ever since.
Mr. SPECTER. And while assigned at the White House staff, how much of your duty has involved driving the President's car?
Mr. GREER. Well, I drove the followup car for quite a long time you know, off and on. And then I drove the President at intervals during President Truman's and President Eisenhower's terms. I was also assigned a great many times to Mrs. Eisenhower. When she left Washington, I was always assigned to her, to travel with her. And I have been assigned to the President, to drive the President, since election day, with President Kennedy. I was the senior agent assigned to him, to drive him.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you get to Dallas yourself back on November 22, 1963?
Mr. GREER. I flew--I was on a plane with the President all during the trip. And I flew from Fort Worth to Dallas that morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I hand you documents which have been marked Commission Exhibits 344, 345, and 346. I ask you if you can identify those, starting with 344, what that depicts.
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I can identify this automobile very well. That is the 1961 Lincoln, especially built for the President. And this is a rear view of that same automobile. This is the interior of that Lincoln Continental. Yes, sir, everything is very positive that I can identify.
Mr. SPECTER. How did that automobile--how was that automobile transported to Texas?
Mr. GREER. It was flown there in a C-130.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where it was flown to?
Mr. GREER. Well, it was flown--let's see, I forget the day before where our first stop was on that trip right now. I would have to go back into my papers. But we used I believe more than one stop. I am trying to think where we used it before we went to Dallas. It could have been at Houston. I am not too sure whether we used it at Houston the day before or not. I would have to go back in my records.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible the first time you used the automobile on that Texas trip was at Dallas?
Mr. GREER. Right now it is so long ago, I have almost forgotten whether we did use it at Houston prior to that or not. I am not too sure where the first stop was. We sometimes use it more than one stop.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any covering which can be put on the President's automobile?
Mr. GREER. There is--when we put the plastic--I put the plastic on it, we have a black canvass-type cover that buttons over the top of the plastic.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you please describe in a general way the plastic covering you just referred to.
Mr. GREER. The plastic covering is made in six pieces. Three of them--there are two corner pieces and a centerpiece on the back that we fasten together before we set it up onto the car. Then there is a front--one piece that goes across the front seat after that. Then the last pieces we put on are two that go in the center, and they meet together in the center--they come together in the center. That makes the six pieces that it comes down in. We have to break it down in the six pieces to store it in the trunk. It is kept in the trunk of the car whenever we are not using it.
Mr. SPECTER. Are the three pieces that you described as being joined together for the rear portion disassembled at all times?
Mr. GREER. We disassemble them to store them in the trunk, yes, sir. But we put them together on the floor, on the ground or something like that--we put the three pieces together, then we lift it up and set it in place, which covers the back seat of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. And after you put the three pieces together for the back portion of the car, how many additional pieces are there for the balance of the car?
Mr. GREER. Three; three more pieces.
Mr. SPECTER. And how are they secured to the automobile itself?
Mr. GREER. They are secured with--I don't know what you would call it--these fasteners, snaps, kind of snaps that snap on them. We have them made that way so that we can install them or take them apart very fast.

Apparently Greer had been driving JFK in this specially built limo since it came out in 1961, and he was involved with attaching and removing the tops during all that time. Is this a fair and accurate description?

Quote

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 349, Mr. Greer, and ask if you are able to identify what that picture represents?
Mr. GREER. That represents the windshield of the car.
Mr. SPECTER. Of the President's car?
Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looks like the windshield of the President's car.
Mr. SPECTER. Now calling your attention to a small arrow--
Mr. GREER. Arrow.
Mr. SPECTER. Which points up on what appears to be an indentation, I ask you if you--when was the first time, if at all, that you observed that indentation?
Mr. GREER. I didn't observe that--
Mr. SPECTER. On the car?
Mr. GREER. Until after I got back to Washington, until the car came back to Washington, I saw it at the White House garage. It was the first time I had ever noticed that.
Mr. SPECTER. On what date did you observe that indentation on the car?
Mr. GREER. That was the day after, the 23, would be it. It would be the day after the shooting. We got back from Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. And what time of the day did you observe the car at the White House garage on that date?
Mr. GREER. It was in the afternoon, I believe. I believe it was in the afternoon, I believe.
Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone call that indentation to your attention at that time?
Mr. GREER. Yes; I was asked if I knew about it.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who asked you?
Mr. GREER. I can't remember now who did say that, but I was shown that indentation at the same time I was the break in the glass. I was shown both and asked if I had known but I can't remember who might have asked me.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever observed that indentation before the assassination occurred?
Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had never noticed it before at any time. I had never seen it before.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had any occasion to examine closely that metallic area to ascertain whether or not there was such an indentation prior to the assassination?
Mr. GREER. Well, it seems to me I would have prior to that had it been there because I do take care of the car sometimes, and it had never been--I had never noticed it at any previous time.

For someone to have occupied the driver's seat in a professional capacity in a two year period and to have also been involved with attaching/removing the bubble tops during that time and not noticed that indentation is difficult to believe. It seems to me the only way that indentation could have gotten there innocently would have to have been during the process of attaching or removing the bubble top. Whatever made that hole had to have struck the frame pretty hard. That's not a scratch. It doesn't even look like a dent to me; it looks like a straight up hole. It appears that areas of metal around the dent are misshapen as well. It seems to me Greer would have to have known if there was a piece in the front center of the bubble top that could have hit the limo that hard by accident during the process of attaching or removing the top.

What was Geis' statement on the dent? I can't seem to find it at the moment. I'm curious as to how many others have made any statements on the record about this dent and what they've said.

[Joe Bauer]

On 12/22/2020 at 7:43 AM, Denny Zartman said:

Greer's testimony on this seems to be compelling, in my opinion.

Apparently Greer had been driving JFK in this specially built limo since it came out in 1961, and he was involved with attaching and removing the tops during all that time. Is this a fair and accurate description?

For someone to have occupied the driver's seat in a professional capacity in a two year period and to have also been involved with attaching/removing the bubble tops during that time and not noticed that indentation is difficult to believe. It seems to me the only way that indentation could have gotten there innocently would have to have been during the process of attaching or removing the bubble top. Whatever made that hole had to have struck the frame pretty hard. That's not a scratch. It doesn't even look like a dent to me; it looks like a straight up hole. It appears that areas of metal around the dent are misshapen as well. It seems to me Greer would have to have known if there was a piece in the front center of the bubble top that could have hit the limo that hard by accident during the process of attaching or removing the top.

What was Geis' statement on the dent? I can't seem to find it at the moment. I'm curious as to how many others have made any statements on the record about this dent and what they've said.

Mark and Denny, I wonder whether the JFK limo bubble top was ever engaged mechanically.

Like our current sun/moon roof auto accessories that are built into the bodies of the car itself and retract mechanically. The motors that do this are powerful enough that if any part of the moving roof piece were to become misaligned or off track, I could see that kind of mechanical force being powerful enough to puncture and lift up a hard steel frame such as what we see in the indentation photo.

On the other hand, if the JFK limo bubble top was a strictly man installed piece with hand turning lever tightening, my guess is that this could not generate enough force to puncture hard steel and lift up the surrounding area in the frame as well.

That heavy steel frame indentation and uplifting of it's surrounding area took a lot of impacting force. And what part of the bubble top edge that connected to windshield frame had a protruding point or shape that penetrated into the frame creating a circular bullet size and shape hole as deep as the photo shows? 

The hole we see resembles what one would expect from a heavy blow by the round end of a ball peen hammer. And just as logically a bullet.

Your assessment of Greer's credibility and his under oath WC testimony of never seeing the indentation until the next day after 11,22,1963 is so logically bolstered by his years of being just two feet away from the windshield frame perhaps hundreds of times ( and for an hour on 11,22,1963 ) which makes it obvious why no one has ever presented any even half-way reasonable counter argument to his testimony.

Who else spent more behind the wheel time in that limo than Greer?

And the photos above sure seem to prove that the Dallas motorcade JFK limo was indeed also flown and used in motorcades in other countries. It was the showiest car we had and my common sense just laughs at me in giving any thought to that 5 inch wide, ugly, in your face windshield smash, hole dent being missed and/or dismissed as not worth fixing for two years before 11,22,1963.

Has anyone posting on this forum ever had any hands-on occupational experience working with or around metal fabrication? Machinest work?

Someone who knows the tolerances of anything similar to the steel used to make the JFK limo windshield frame?

I would like to ask their opinion regards the sometimes promoted theory that an exploded piece of JFK's obliterated skull could have created the windshield frame indentation we see in the photo above. The frame indentation the Warren Commission asked S.A. Greer about. 

Also, the bullet fragments found in the front passenger area of the limo? Together with the bullet fragments seen in Xrays of JFK's brain and skull, did these combined bullet fragments make up most of a bullet that was of the type found on Connally's stretcher?

And could a decent size chunk of the JFK head shot bullet have gone through JFK's skull twice ( entering and exiting ) and still been able to continue on a non-deflected almost straight line path into the frame to do as much damage to the windshield frame as we see? And then simply drop out to be found on the front seat or floor?

JFK's limo was one of the most important pieces of evidence in the case.

It was contaminated immediately with washing down of the seats and then spirited away from the crime scene where it's study could be more controlled.

And soon enough flown out to be totally compromised.

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Dan Rice]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

On the other hand, if the JFK limo bubble top was a strictly man installed piece with hand turning lever tightening, my guess is that this could not generate enough force to puncture hard steel and lift up the surrounding area in the frame as well.

 

 

I do recall seeing a pic of secret service agents assembling the bubble top at Parkland.  It consisted of a few pieces so they would fit in the trunk.  According to Wikipedia, it was snapped together.  Also, according to Wikipedia, there was a stainless steel forward section that could be attached.  Apparently, there were a number of configurations for the limo roof.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Dan Rice

[Pamela Brown]

23 hours ago, Dan Rice said:

I do recall seeing a pic of secret service agents assembling the bubble top at Parkland.  It consisted of a few pieces so they would fit in the trunk.  According to Wikipedia, it was snapped together.  Also, according to Wikipedia, there was a stainless steel forward section that could be attached.  Apparently, there were a number of configurations for the limo roof.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2018/11/19/would-a-bubble-top-have-saved-kennedy-more-answers-from-the-strange-story-of-jfk-s-lincoln-limo/

[Joe Bauer]

Ms. P.B. 

I thought you had retired from posting since I haven't seen you here in so long.

You are the resident expert on the JFK limo.

I know you have different takes on it's place in the overall case. Including the windshield frame indentation.

I don't know however, if I ever read your take on S.A. Greer and his Warren Commission testimony regards his not noticing the windshield frame damage until the day after 11,22,1963?

I think I read where you don't think the indentation is as important as I and others think it is and was not made by a bullet. Also, do you accept S.S. Geis's claim that the indentation was made 2 years previous to 11,22,1963 and was the result of some work being done in a shop outside of Washington D.C.?

[Joe Bauer]

On 12/19/2020 at 11:40 AM, Vince Palamara said:

It is very hard to believe this Secret Service excuse for the indentation (made to J. Lee Rankin of the Warren Commission in January 1964 [CD80]).

Wouldn't one think that whoever was responsible for JFK's limo ( in this case S.A. Geis ) might have asked ( demanded ) the owners of the "Empire Garage" Lincoln Mercury dealership in New York repair the very visible and unsightly damage they caused ( according to Geis's statement ) to the inside of the limo windshield frame?

If any of us took our own personal car to a dealer repair business and got our car back with this hideous 5 or 6 inch wide metal twisting around a 1/2 inch or more deep indentation hole, would we not immediately demand they fix it?

We are talking the number one public display show car for the President of the United States! 

Used and showcased both here and abroad!

A car that took an unprecedent amount of advanced Ford corporation redesign and alteration work to build and $200, 000 more government money to enhance even further. 

S.A. Geis's indentation provenance statement including the ignoring of the windshield frame damage and it's repair for more than two years ... is preposterous.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Vince Palamara]

On 12/24/2020 at 11:59 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Wouldn't one think that whoever was responsible for JFK's limo ( in this case S.A. Geis ) might have asked ( demanded ) the owners of the "Empire Garage" Lincoln Mercury dealer in New York repair the very visible and unsightly damage they caused ( according to Geis's statement ) to the inside of the limo windshield frame?

If any of us took our own personal car to a dealer repair business and got our car back with this hideous 5 or 6 inch wide metal twisting around a 1/2 inch or more deep indentation hole, would we not immediately demand they fix it?

We are talking the number one public display show car for the President of the United States! 

Used and showcased both here and abroad!

A car that took an unprecedent amount of advanced Ford corporation work to build and $200, 000 more government money to enhance even further. 

S.A. Geis's indentation provenance statement including the ignoring of the windshield frame damage and it's repair for more than two years ... is preposterous.

I agree!

[Joe Bauer]

Vince, was the subject of the windshield frame damage ever discussed between you and any of the agents you corresponded with?

I'm assuming no because only a handful had enough time around the limo to notice?

Do you have any feelings about the damage and whether it was or was not there before the JFK shooting as Greer stated?

If the damage was not there before the shooting, are you open minded about the possibility that it could have been created by an impacting bullet?

[Pamela Brown]

23 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Vince, was the subject of the windshield frame damage ever discussed between you and any of the agents you corresponded with?

I'm assuming no because only a handful had enough time around the limo to notice?

Do you have any feelings about the damage and whether it was or was not there before the JFK shooting as Greer stated?

If the damage was not there before the shooting, are you open minded about the possibility that it could have been created by an impacting bullet?

From my standpoint, this is just Rowley double-speak.  

Morgan Geis was not formally in charge of SS100X. Vaughn Ferguson was.

[Joe Bauer]

9 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

From my standpoint, this is just Rowley double-speak.  

Morgan Geis was not formally in charge of SS100X. Vaughn Ferguson was.

Was Vaughn Ferguson ever asked about the indentation?

[Joe Bauer]

On 12/26/2020 at 11:09 AM, Pamela Brown said:

From my standpoint, this is just Rowley double-speak.  

Morgan Geis was not formally in charge of SS100X. Vaughn Ferguson was.

Was Vaughn Ferguson ever asked about the indentation?

SOURCE OF LEATHER FROM REAR SEAT OF JFK ... - Blog

blog.americanheritage1.com › blog › bid › SOURCE-O...

 

1.  
2.  

Mar 19, 2011 — Vaughn Ferguson. Special Note: Any and all other pieces of this Important JFK Assassination Leather Relic were once owned by F. Vaughn ...

 

 

Included is a November 1983 newspaper interview with Ferguson, on the
20th anniversary of the assassination. In the interview, Ferguson
gives more details. In part: "...Ferguson...was the liaison officer
between the company [Ford] and the White House.

 

He was responsible for the presidential automobiles....'Wherever that car went, I went,'
Ferguson said of the presidential limousine.

 

'I was responsible for it.'

 

But on the infamous day that the president was killed, Ferguson
had opted to break tradition and stay in Washington?

 

The next weekend would have been the Army-Navy game in Philadelphia...President
Kennedy always went to that game.

 

I stayed to get things ready for the trip. We were to have a car in Philadelphia a couple of days early to have a dry run of the route. You always have a dry run.'

 

It was a trip that never materialized. Instead, Ferguson spent the next three days
trying to clean the car. "There was blood everywhere" Ferguson
remembers. 'We never did get it all out" 

 

Ferguson remembers being told by Secret Service agents to return to the White House garage to begin the task of repairing the limousine, in case President Lyndon
Johnson wanted to use it for the funeral.

 

When he arrived at the garage, it was guarded by men from the FBI. "They jumped up at me like I was a gangster. When I started walking toward the car they warned
me not to come any closer." He had to call the director of the Secret
Service to get clearance to approach the car. The interview continues,
"Ferguson said the FBI agents had ripped the leather seats and had
dismantled parts of the car....'They told me they had to do it to find
the bullet particles from the shooting."

 

Ferguson worked Saturday, Sunday, and Monday to get the car ready, but President Johnson decided not to use it to ride to the funeral, which took place on Monday. When
the repairs were completed, Ferguson kept some of the leather from the
seats as a memento of the fallen President.
Estimated Value $35,000-45,000.

 

Ferguson:  "Wherever that car went, I went."
 

Ah, but Ferguson "just happened" to not stay with the limo on it's trip to Dallas?

It's one day use to get to and back from the Army/Navy football game was more important?

 

"Ferguson worked Saturday, Sunday, and Monday to get the car ready, but President Johnson decided not to use it to ride to the funeral, which took place on Monday."

 

Head shaking questions here.

 

Ferguson worked Saturday, Sunday and Monday to get the car ready.

 

Ready for what?

 

LBJ or any of his staff "even considering" the use of the widely blood and brain spattered JFK death carriage in a national and even international media covered public display way just a few days after it's monstrously gross descecration, let alone disrupting and contaminating it's evidential study is laughably preposterous.

 

I can't believe "anyone" ever even considered such a perversely illogical scenario, including Ferguson.

 

The JFK back through throat /Connally back to thigh magic bullet was virtually intact when it was found laying on a stretcher with reportedly no blood or tissue visible just minutes after the shooting.

 

The JFK head exploding second shot bullet was officially declared fragmentized.

 

With some of these fragments found on the seat and limo floor carpeting and one strking the inside of the limo windshield with resulting crack lines.  

 

Again, since Vaughn Ferguson stated "wherever that car went, I went" and his documented background verifies this statement,  Pamela Brown is correct in offering Ferguson's much more hands on involvement with the JFK limo as being much more substantial and important that that of S.A. Geis.

 

So, again I ask, how could Ferguson "not" have noticed that very obvious ugly windshield frame indentation with pushed up metal around it right in front of the driving view of any driver of the limo?

 

The configuration of the indentation ( a bullet sized and shaped hole made with great surrounding metal lifting impact ) and it'd being right in line with the upper rear incoming directions of the JFK injuring bullets and not being there until the actual shooting SHOUTS giving this physical interior car frame damage the most serious consideration and analysis as to it's origin regards time line and cause.

 

If the indentation was credibly analysed and it's cause and origin scientifically proven to be non-shooting related I would like to be referred to any documentaion or report offering this explanation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by Joe Bauer

[Pamela Brown]

Joe Bauer asked if Vaughn Ferguson was asked about the defect in the chrome molding:

Not that I am aware of.  Rowley's letter was written in response to Vaughn Ferguson's memo, and I think Rowley added that 'convenient' interpretation on his own.

http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif

http://ss100x.com/pg2ferg.gif

[Joe Bauer]

12 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Joe Bauer asked if Vaughn Ferguson was asked about the defect in the chrome molding:

Not that I am aware of.  Rowley's letter was written in response to Vaughn Ferguson's memo, and I think Rowley added that 'convenient' interpretation on his own.

http://ss100x.com/ferg1.gif

http://ss100x.com/pg2ferg.gif

I would think that Vaughn Ferguson would have been aware of the Warren Commission asking S.A. Greer about "the indentation." It is obvious that both he and his odd named lifetime friend "Raleigh Degeer Amyx" were avid collectors of JFK memorabilia so it seems logical that they had an interest in the JFK assassination itself. 

Suspicious that Ferguson wasn't called before the Warren Commission considering they wanted to know more about the limo indentation and just a basic inquiry into the limo's management responsibility would have led them to Ferguson imo.

Can anyone give me a link to a highly credible source indentation explanation that proves it's existence and origin had nothing to do with the shooting into the JFK limo on 11,22,1963 besides the preposterous one given by S.A. Geis ( or as Pam Brown mentions) Crowley?

Edited December 28, 2020 by Joe Bauer