Windshield bullet hole and more

[Jamey Flanagan]

Was watching this video:

When a couple of things kinda stood out to me. First of all the guy who had said he had a conversation with Bill Greer right after the assassination and Greer said that shots were coming from EVERYWHERE. He said one came through the windshield and almost hit me. To me this paints Greer in somewhat of a better light. Most people, me included, have always been puzzled by his actions (or inaction) once the shots began and just concluded that he was in on it. I have always believed this to be true. Instead of stepping on the gas and getting the hell out of there he hits the brakes and according to many came to at least a momentary complete stop. Now, after hearing this report for the first time I am at least open to him not being aware of a plot to kill Kennedy beforehand and being a key player. Like when the White Sox (or should I say Black Sox) threw the world series back in 1919 they knew they had to get the main two pitchers in on it for them to succeed. They were key. The thought has always been that to guarantee that JFK does not escape Dallas with his life then the driver has to stop or slow down significantly to allow a kill shot. But, if the throat shot was the result of the bullet through the windshield, and Greer was aware that early in the shooting that shots were definitely coming from the front, then maybe I can buy that he panicked being that that shot almost hit him and didn't really know what to do. Do you keep driving toward a shooter? The second thing that stood out to me was the statements made by the motorcycle officers, Chaney being one, who adamantly said that the first shot missed and they saw it leave a trail through the grass in line from the Book Depository. And THEN JFK was hit from the front. So, I'm definitely thinking that the first shot did miss. Like Costner says in the movie JFK, "The first shot, sounding like a backfire, misses the limo completely. Kennedy stops waving....". Obviously this shot did make a sound, but everyone said the first shot sounded like a firecracker. But I saw something one time where someone fired a shot through a replica windshield of the limo and the shot going through the glass made a sound just like a firecracker. I'm not a guy who's into firearms so I'm not sure how it all works but maybe that first shot was muffled or a silencer was used and it didn't exactly sound like a gun shot but more like a backfire and then just a few seconds later the windshield shot sounding like a firecracker happens. Being within a few seconds apart most witnesses coupled these together as the same shot. The windshield shot I think was definitely shot with a silencer and the only reason a sound was heard was the bullet going through the glass. Anyway, those are just my thoughts. Would love to hear other's thoughts and opinions. And curious as to whether anyone has heard these Greer statements about the shot coming through the windshield and almost hitting him before. It was new to me.

[John Butler]

This is Altgens 6 showing a bullet hole by the rearview mirror.  You can clearly see a hole in the windshield in this crop and magnify of the relevant area.  

And from the video:

I don't see a hole at the bottom similar to the hole at the rearview mirror.  Altgens 6 and this frame from the video confirm there was a bullet hole by the rearview mirror.

I have arbitrarily labelled the hole by the mirror the first bullet in the windshield.  It may have been the second if a shot is determined to be at the bottom of the windshield.

 

[Jamey Flanagan]

Thanks for the reply! Great stuff! I've only ever heard talk of one bullet hole so I don't believe there was another. That one is way too high to be responsible for the throat shot so I rule that out as a possibility. I just wonder where that shot wouldn've ended up? I think I may have heard in one video at some point about a bullet hole in the seat cushion. High up. Like the part you rest your back against. May be mistaken. That could be a possibility if so cause we know it didn't keep going and hit anything behind them in the motorcade.

[Eddy Bainbridge]

That video is pretty convincing. Can anyone post the 'Top Secret' testimony (Church committee?) mentioned please, of the man who was a passenger in the limo. Has anyone got anywhere getting Greer's book draft?

[Jamey Flanagan]

So, I just noticed the comments from the video I posted in the first post. There was one VERY interesting comment you all should read from the one who posted the video on YouTube. He quotes someone who had sent him a comment on an encounter he had about a week before the assassination behind the Texas School Book Depository when he was 9 and there with his Dad. Trust me, you need to read this! Now, it can't be taken as gospel truth or anything cause the guy used a screen name it looks like but it's not that far fetched if you really think about it. George Bush was the CIA liaison to the anti-Castro Cuban brigade which included E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis. Oswald was involved with the anti-Castro Cubans. Ruby was making trips to Cuba and running guns. For some reason when they said a man with a thin tie on I immediately thought Bill Shelley. I can't say why. Who knows? Maybe something I saw or read once. But when I read that the name Bill Shelley immediately popped into my mind. From all I've read anyway I believe that the Texas School Book Depository was (similar to the O'Reilly Coffee Company Oswald was previously employed at) was more or less a front business but did other operations for the C.I.A. or FBI. Not saying that everybody involved in the warehouse had intelligence connections or that there wasn't legitimate work done for that business, but some of the higher ups involved in that endeavor have somewhat sinister connections. Starting with the building owner D. H. Byrd. His involvement with the civil air patrol in which Dave Ferrie and Lee Oswald were members at one time. Anyway, just thought I'd give everyone a heads up to look in the comments section.

[Pete Mellor]

1 hour ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

So, I just noticed the comments from the video I posted in the first post. There was one VERY interesting comment you all should read from the one who posted the video on YouTube. He quotes someone who had sent him a comment on an encounter he had about a week before the assassination behind the Texas School Book Depository when he was 9 and there with his Dad. Trust me, you need to read this! Now, it can't be taken as gospel truth or anything cause the guy used a screen name it looks like but it's not that far fetched if you really think about it. George Bush was the CIA liaison to the anti-Castro Cuban brigade which included E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis. Oswald was involved with the anti-Castro Cubans. Ruby was making trips to Cuba and running guns. For some reason when they said a man with a thin tie on I immediately thought Bill Shelley. I can't say why. Who knows? Maybe something I saw or read once. But when I read that the name Bill Shelley immediately popped into my mind. From all I've read anyway I believe that the Texas School Book Depository was (similar to the O'Reilly Coffee Company Oswald was previously employed at) was more or less a front business but did other operations for the C.I.A. or FBI. Not saying that everybody involved in the warehouse had intelligence connections or that there wasn't legitimate work done for that business, but some of the higher ups involved in that endeavor have somewhat sinister connections. Starting with the building owner D. H. Byrd. His involvement with the civil air patrol in which Dave Ferrie and Lee Oswald were members at one time. Anyway, just thought I'd give everyone a heads up to look in the comments section.

Jamey, Re:- TSBD personnel try JFKConversations on Alan Dale's website for his interviews with Greg Parker.

Some food for thought.

[Guest]

Brilliant video, thank you for sharing.

South Knoll shot ... 

[Greg Wagner]

Nine eyewitnesses observed a hole in windshield:

• Stavis Ellis, DPD 

• HR Freeman, DPD 

• Dr Evalea Glanges 

• Joe Paolella, Secret Service 

• Charles Taylor, Jr, Secret Service 

• Richard Dudman, St Louis Dispatch 

• Frank Cormier, St Louis Dispatch 

• George Whitaker, Sr, Ford Motor Company 

• Bill Greer (told to Nick Prencipe, US Parks Police) 

[Mark Tyler]

I haven't previously looked at the idea of a shot going through the windshield, but I did have a look at the video.  The first thing that occurred to me was that if a shot went through the windshield, a good view of this angle would be the Altgens 6 photo here:

We can just about see JFK, so presumably an assassin firing from the front could also see him.  From the position of the hole mentioned in the video, a sniper would have to be somewhat to the south side of the railway bridge over the triple underpass.  Alas I don't have a 3D model so I can't check the exact trajectory but on a 2D map it would be somewhere around this area I would say (this is the limo position at Z188, but a second or so later wouldn't change the angles much):

A few issues crossed my mind:

• It looks like quite a hard shot as the target is somewhat obscured (much harder than from the rear, which is a much easier shot as JFK was totally exposed).
• If any shot went through the windshield at Z190-Z220 I would have expected Greer or Kellerman to have noticed, but they didn't mention anything in their official testimony and the Z-film shows no obvious reaction.
• The only reactions from Greer and Kellerman are just after the head shot when they duck.  I would judge the damage to the windshield to have happened at this point from a sniper to the rear of the limo (i.e. the bullet hit JFK and then split into several pieces that hit the windshield, chrome topping, and ended up around the front seat area).

Generally I feel the theory doesn't quite fit the evidence, but as so often in the case we can't really know for certain due to the car being cleaned soon afterwards and the damaged windshield being replaced and destroyed.  The destruction of evidence by the authorities in this case is deeply problematic on many levels, and makes proper analysis almost impossible.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Mark Tyler said:

I haven't previously looked at the idea of a shot going through the windshield, but I did have a look at the video.  The first thing that occurred to me was that if a shot went through the windshield, a good view of this angle would be the Altgens 6 photo here:

We can just about see JFK, so presumably an assassin firing from the front could also see him.  From the position of the hole mentioned in the video, a sniper would have to be somewhat to the south side of the railway bridge over the triple underpass.  Alas I don't have a 3D model so I can't check the exact trajectory but on a 2D map it would be somewhere around this area I would say (this is the limo position at Z188, but a second or so later wouldn't change the angles much):

A few issues crossed my mind:

• It looks like quite a hard shot as the target is somewhat obscured (much harder than from the rear, which is a much easier shot as JFK was totally exposed).
• If any shot went through the windshield at Z190-Z220 I would have expected Greer or Kellerman to have noticed, but they didn't mention anything in their official testimony and the Z-film shows no obvious reaction.
• The only reactions from Greer and Kellerman are just after the head shot when they duck.  I would judge the damage to the windshield to have happened at this point from a sniper to the rear of the limo (i.e. the bullet hit JFK and then split into several pieces that hit the windshield, chrome topping, and ended up around the front seat area).

Generally I feel the theory doesn't quite fit the evidence, but as so often in the case we can't really know for certain due to the car being cleaned soon afterwards and the damaged windshield being replaced and destroyed.  The destruction of evidence by the authorities in this case is deeply problematic on many levels, and makes proper analysis almost impossible.

Have you watched the video at the start of this thread? Its my a Youtuber called Alek Hidell. It's very interesting regarding the angles. 

They would have to have noticed or flinched and there is a suggestion that Greer did indeed notice, though omitted from his WC testimony (watch the video at the top of this thread). There is also the bullet deviating slightly when it hits the windscreen. And the throat bullet seeming to be a lower calibre is interesting. It's a pretty close shot from anywhere in the plaza, for a marksman. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Chris Barnard

[Eddy Bainbridge]

I think somewhere in the video it suggests the shot may have been silenced, thats interesting, as silenced means slower, and it is postulated that the bullet hit bone and richocheted into the chest cavity (causing an internal bruising on the top of the lung I think is suggested) due to lack of momentum to pierce the neck. It would be great to see whether Greer wrote anything different than his testimony.

[Chris Davidson]

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

That's very handy Chris. 

[Mark Tyler]

On 2/12/2021 at 5:30 PM, Chris Barnard said:

Have you watched the video at the start of this thread? Its my a Youtuber called Alek Hidell. It's very interesting regarding the angles. 

The angle seems possible, but what about the shot itself?  Do you think it goes through JFK and the back wound is an exit wound, or is that from a different shot?  I'm trying to understand the general scenario required by the theory.  For example, this also requires a shot from the rear that hits John Connally.

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Mark Tyler said:

The angle seems possible, but what about the shot itself?  Do you think it goes through JFK and the back wound is an exit wound, or is that from a different shot?  I'm trying to understand the general scenario required by the theory.  For example, this also requires a shot from the rear that hits John Connally.

At least in my unqualified opinion, I have always assumed the back shot was from a window behind, Daltex or SBD. I don't believe the throat shot from the front exits. I am open to the possibility of almost simultaneous shots hitting him at the point we see the headshot. The limo almost stops, you have to assume that's deliberate and that those involved were given a 'can't miss' scenario.