Is the "Lansdale Hypothesis" of the JFK Assassination the Real Deal?

[Michael Griffith]

And let's not forget that Prouty also made the fantastic claim that Lucien Conein was in Dealey Plaza too, despite the fact that Conein was in South Vietnam at the time.

We should also keep in mind that Prouty's website still claims that Victor Krulak identified the man with his back to the camera in the tramp photo as Lansdale, even though we know from Harrison Livingstone's recorded interview with Krulak that Krulak did no such thing. 

It should be noted that Prouty did not float his obscene claims about Lansdale until after Lansdale died in 1987.

[Joe Bauer]

On 2/9/2024 at 8:54 AM, Michael Griffith said:

And let's not forget that Prouty also made the fantastic claim that Lucien Conein was in Dealey Plaza too, despite the fact that Conein was in South Vietnam at the time.

We should also keep in mind that Prouty's website still claims that Victor Krulak identified the man with his back to the camera in the tramp photo as Lansdale, even though we know from Harrison Livingstone's recorded interview with Krulak that Krulak did no such thing. 

It should be noted that Prouty did not float his obscene claims about Lansdale until after Lansdale died in 1987.

Was Krulak alive when Prouty published his claim regarding Krulak IDing Lansdale in the three tramps photo?

[W. Niederhut]

35 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Was Krulak alive when Prouty published his claim regarding Krulak IDing Lansdale in the three tramps photo?

Joe,

     General Victor Krulak died in 2008.  Prouty wrote his letter to Garrison-- mentioning that he and Krulak had ID'd their colleague, Ed Lansdale, in the Dealey Plaza photos-- in March of 1990.

     Jeff Carter probably knows when Prouty's 1990 letter to Garrison was made public.  I can't find that info.

 

 

     

[Jeff Carter]

23 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Was Krulak alive when Prouty published his claim regarding Krulak IDing Lansdale in the three tramps photo?

An accurate timeline relevant to this issue has been offered several times, but is consistently misrepresented by persons who approach the topic as a means of scoring partisan points rather than establishing the facts.

Prouty was part of an interested group (I think loosely connected to Richard Sprague) who had access to high-quality 8x10 copies of photos taken in Dealey Plaza. The complete set of “Tramps” photos was part of this collection. This is late 60s/early 70s -  second generation pre-HSCA era. Sprague was publishing assassination related articles in his journal Computers and Automation.

Prouty would later say he immediately recognized Lansdale in the one photo, but did not speak of it to  his colleagues.

Prouty, with Sprague collating photos, published his first assassination related article “Guns of Dallas” in 1975. This article features a brief discussion of the Tramp photos (as well as referencing the Military Intelligence stand down later misrepresented by the ARRB panel). No mention of Lansdale.                    https://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/GoD.html

Prouty contacted Krulak regarding the Tramp photos in early 1985 - more than a decade after initially viewing the photos. Krulak’s response is dated March 15, 1985. He says: “That is indeed a picture of Ed Lansdale . The haircut, the stoop, the twisted left hand, the large class ring. It's Lansdale. “

To be consistent, at this point the self-styled Prouty critics should be identifying Krulak himself as a “crackpot and fraud.” But they won’t do that because Krulak retains a stellar reputation for personal integrity, and the critics would themselves become the laughing-stocks. So instead they posit, apropos of nothing but their partisan imaginations, that the letter is a “forgery” ( note that in December 1963 Krulak celebrated Prouty’s military career with a Letter of Appreciation for his “outstanding performance of duty”: “your unique knowledge and appreciation of the inner-relationship of political and military factors have contributed materially to the achievement of national objectives…You take with you both the gratitude of your associates and the confident hope that in your forth-coming responsibilities in civilian life you will profit from the same high standards that have characterized your outstanding service with the Organization of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.” This is the person certain posters on EF claim is an “extreme fringe kook.”)

Five years later (March 1990), Prouty writes his “Lansdale hypothesis” letter to Garrison. He doesn’t directly ID Krulak when he writes: “Others who knew Lansdale as well as I did, have said the same thing, ‘That's him and what's he doing there?’ “ Portions of this letter make their way into the "JFK" script.

Prouty did however mention in confidence Krulak’s ID to his colleague Harrison Livingstone - who, for reasons of his own, broke Prouty’s trust, publicized the issue, and made a direct cold call to Krulak, who understandably reacted defensively. Krulake, however, did not refute his communication five years previously with Prouty - another matter which is consistently misrepresented by agenda-driven partisans. It was Livingstone who broke this information publicly, not Prouty. Livingstone had been difficult at the time with Stone and the "JFK" office, which Stone refers to in his published response to Esquire's hit piece on the film.

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

An accurate timeline relevant to this issue has been offered several times, but is consistently misrepresented by persons who approach the topic as a means of scoring partisan points rather than establishing the facts.

Prouty was part of an interested group (I think loosely connected to Richard Sprague) who had access to high-quality 8x10 copies of photos taken in Dealey Plaza. The complete set of “Tramps” photos was part of this collection. This is late 60s/early 70s -  second generation pre-HSCA era. Sprague was publishing assassination related articles in his journal Computers and Automation.

Prouty would later say he immediately recognized Lansdale in the one photo, but did not speak of it to  his colleagues.

Prouty, with Sprague collating photos, published his first assassination related article “Guns of Dallas” in 1975. This article features a brief discussion of the Tramp photos (as well as referencing the Military Intelligence stand down later misrepresented by the ARRB panel). No mention of Lansdale.                    https://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/GoD.html

Prouty contacted Krulak regarding the Tramp photos in early 1985 - more than a decade after initially viewing the photos. Krulak’s response is dated March 15, 1985. He says: “That is indeed a picture of Ed Lansdale . The haircut, the stoop, the twisted left hand, the large class ring. It's Lansdale. “

To be consistent, at this point the self-styled Prouty critics should be identifying Krulak himself as a “crackpot and fraud.” But they won’t do that because Krulak retains a stellar reputation for personal integrity, and the critics would themselves become the laughing-stocks. So instead they posit, apropos of nothing but their partisan imaginations, that the letter is a “forgery” ( note that in December 1963 Krulak celebrated Prouty’s military career with a Letter of Appreciation for his “outstanding performance of duty”: “your unique knowledge and appreciation of the inner-relationship of political and military factors have contributed materially to the achievement of national objectives…You take with you both the gratitude of your associates and the confident hope that in your forth-coming responsibilities in civilian life you will profit from the same high standards that have characterized your outstanding service with the Organization of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.” This is the person certain posters on EF claim is an “extreme fringe kook.”)

Five years later (March 1990), Prouty writes his “Lansdale hypothesis” letter to Garrison. He doesn’t directly ID Krulak when he writes: “Others who knew Lansdale as well as I did, have said the same thing, ‘That's him and what's he doing there?’ “ Portions of this letter make their way into the "JFK" script.

Prouty did however mention in confidence Krulak’s ID to his colleague Harrison Livingstone - who, for reasons of his own, broke Prouty’s trust, publicized the issue, and made a direct cold call to Krulak, who understandably reacted defensively. Krulake, however, did not refute his communication five years previously with Prouty - another matter which is consistently misrepresented by agenda-driven partisans. It was Livingstone who broke this information publicly, not Prouty. Livingstone had been difficult at the time with Stone and the "JFK" office, which Stone refers to in his published response to Esquire's hit piece on the film.

 

Jeff,

Is it true that someone's (Krulak's?) wife also identified Lansdale in the tramp photo? If so, when did that take place?

 

[Robert Morrow]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Jeff,

Is it true that someone's (Krulak's) wife also identified Lansdale in the tramp photo? If so, when did that take place?

 

Edward Lansdale was cheating on his first wife with a pretty Filipina journalist named "Pat Kelly" who he married after his first wife died. According to Danny Sheehan, Patrocinio Lansdale (Pat Kelly) identified Lansdale in the 3 tramps photo. I have tried to contact Danny Sheehan in the past few months on this to get further details on this identification, but Sheehan has not responded to my emails so far.

Patrocinio Yapcinco Lansdale (also known at Pat Kelley), the former second wife of Gen. Edward Lansdale, has identified Lansdale in that photo taken at the TSBD on 11-22-63:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiRqNiG19dg

 – Danny Sheehan, on May 23, 2016, says that Patrocinio Yapcinco Lansdale has definitively identified Lansdale in that photo taken at the TSBD on 11-23-63

Patrocinio Yapcinco Lansdale (3-13-1915 to 11-11-2006) died in 2006 https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Yapcinco-1 :

QUOTE

"Philippines Marriages, 1723-1957", database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:HB3Q-83PZ : 15 February 2020), Patrocinio Yapcinco in entry for Jaime Kelly, 1943.

Virginia, Marriage Certificates, 1936-1988," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVBT-VMK5 : 10 January 2019), Edward Geary Lansdale and Patrocinio Matilde Yapcinco Kelly, 04 Jul 1973; from "Virginia, Marriage Records, 1700-1850," database and images, Ancestry (http://www.ancestry.com : 2012); citing Alexandria, , Virginia, United States, certificate 73-030691, Virginia Department of Health, Richmond.

UNQUOTE

Edited February 11 by Robert Morrow

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

An accurate timeline relevant to this issue has been offered several times, but is consistently misrepresented by persons who approach the topic as a means of scoring partisan points rather than establishing the facts.

Prouty was part of an interested group (I think loosely connected to Richard Sprague) who had access to high-quality 8x10 copies of photos taken in Dealey Plaza. The complete set of “Tramps” photos was part of this collection. This is late 60s/early 70s -  second generation pre-HSCA era. Sprague was publishing assassination related articles in his journal Computers and Automation.

Prouty would later say he immediately recognized Lansdale in the one photo, but did not speak of it to  his colleagues.

Prouty, with Sprague collating photos, published his first assassination related article “Guns of Dallas” in 1975. This article features a brief discussion of the Tramp photos (as well as referencing the Military Intelligence stand down later misrepresented by the ARRB panel). No mention of Lansdale.                    https://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/GoD.html

Prouty contacted Krulak regarding the Tramp photos in early 1985 - more than a decade after initially viewing the photos. Krulak’s response is dated March 15, 1985. He says: “That is indeed a picture of Ed Lansdale . The haircut, the stoop, the twisted left hand, the large class ring. It's Lansdale. “

To be consistent, at this point the self-styled Prouty critics should be identifying Krulak himself as a “crackpot and fraud.” But they won’t do that because Krulak retains a stellar reputation for personal integrity, and the critics would themselves become the laughing-stocks. So instead they posit, apropos of nothing but their partisan imaginations, that the letter is a “forgery” ( note that in December 1963 Krulak celebrated Prouty’s military career with a Letter of Appreciation for his “outstanding performance of duty”: “your unique knowledge and appreciation of the inner-relationship of political and military factors have contributed materially to the achievement of national objectives…You take with you both the gratitude of your associates and the confident hope that in your forth-coming responsibilities in civilian life you will profit from the same high standards that have characterized your outstanding service with the Organization of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.” This is the person certain posters on EF claim is an “extreme fringe kook.”)

Five years later (March 1990), Prouty writes his “Lansdale hypothesis” letter to Garrison. He doesn’t directly ID Krulak when he writes: “Others who knew Lansdale as well as I did, have said the same thing, ‘That's him and what's he doing there?’ “ Portions of this letter make their way into the "JFK" script.

Prouty did however mention in confidence Krulak’s ID to his colleague Harrison Livingstone - who, for reasons of his own, broke Prouty’s trust, publicized the issue, and made a direct cold call to Krulak, who understandably reacted defensively. Krulake, however, did not refute his communication five years previously with Prouty - another matter which is consistently misrepresented by agenda-driven partisans. It was Livingstone who broke this information publicly, not Prouty. Livingstone had been difficult at the time with Stone and the "JFK" office, which Stone refers to in his published response to Esquire's hit piece on the film.

Totally agree with your postulation here JC. Krulak's praise of Prouty and his stellar career back when Prouty retired in the early 60's is important. Did Krulak let Livingstone know if he felt Prouty had flat out lied about Krulak IDing Lansdale in the Tramp photo?

You would think Krulak would have personally called Prouty and complained to him about the inference of his (Krulak's ) take on the Tramp photo. I assume Krulak never complained to Prouty personally about it...correct?

[Jeff Carter]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Jeff,

Is it true that someone's (Krulak's) wife also identified Lansdale in the tramp photo? If so, when did that take place?

I have no information regarding this.

 

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Totally agree with your postulation here JC. Krulak's praise of Prouty and his stellar career back when Prouty retired in the early 60's is important. Did Krulak let Livingstone know if he felt Prouty had flat out lied about Krulak IDing Lansdale in the Tramp photo?

You would think Krulak would have personally called Prouty and complained to him about the inference of his (Krulak's ) take on the Tramp photo. I assume Krulak never complained to Prouty personally about it...correct?

I am not aware of further communications between Prouty and Krulak on this topic. Prouty would most likely have kept such a private matter. The original (1985) communications are authentic. 

[Robert Morrow]

59 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

I have no information regarding this.

 

I am not aware of further communications between Prouty and Krulak on this topic. Prouty would most likely have kept such a private matter. The original (1985) communications are authentic. 

How do you know the 1985 Krulak letter to Prouty is legit. Not doubting this, but can you document this for me? Or tell me why you think so? Thanks in advance, this is a big issue for me. Who has that Krulak letter now? Is it in an archive somewhere or in private ownership of someone?

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Robert Morrow said:

Patrocinio Yapcinco Lansdale (also known at Pat Kelley), the former second wife of Gen. Edward Lansdale, has identified Lansdale in that photo taken at the TSBD on 11-22-63:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiRqNiG19dg

 

According to Danny Sheehan.

Wow, Lansdale's wife.

Is Sheehan trustworthy?

 

[Robert Morrow]

21 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

According to Danny Sheehan.

Wow, Lansdale's wife.

Is Sheehan trustworthy?

 

Lansdales's mistress and second and final wife. I emailed Danny Sheehan but he has not responded to me. Publicly Sheehan said that she had identified Lansdale. I want to know the DETAILS behind that identification. When did she do that? What did she say. Where did she say this? Who did she say this to?

[Michael Griffith]

Critics pounced on three blunders in Stone's 1991 JFK to discredit the movie in the eyes of most journalists and academics. Those three blunders were (1) the claim that Ed Lansdale was one of the plotters, (2) the claim that JFK was determined to abandon the Vietnam War after the election, and (3) Stone's use of Fletcher Prouty as a source. 

One of Stone's own aides, Jane Rusconi, who checked into Prouty, warned Stone five months before the movie's release that Prouty must have known about Liberty Lobby's "unsavory" nature:

          “Basically, there’s no way Fletcher could be unaware of the unsavory aspects of the Liberty Lobby. The Anti-Defamation Leagues keeps a close watch on the Liberty Lobby and are very aware of Fletcher’s involvement. It could come back to haunt us if we don’t find a way to deal with this.”

And Rusconi was apparently unaware that Prouty had actually spoken at an IHR Holocaust-denial conference and had written a letter praising the primary goals of the IHR's Holocaust-denying journal.

Yet, just the information that Rusconi found on Prouty should have been enough to cause Stone to drop him, but Stone decided to use Prouty as a source anyway. This decision came back to haunt Stone in a major way when critics pounced on Prouty's bogus claims and documented Prouty's record of prolonged and close associations with anti-Semites, Holocaust deniers, and white supremacists.

[Jeff Carter]

4 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Critics pounced on three blunders in Stone's 1991 JFK to discredit the movie in the eyes of most journalists and academics. Those three blunders were (1) the claim that Ed Lansdale was one of the plotters, (2) the claim that JFK was determined to abandon the Vietnam War after the election, and (3) Stone's use of Fletcher Prouty as a source. 

One of Stone's own aides, Jane Rusconi, who checked into Prouty, warned Stone five months before the movie's release that Prouty must have known about Liberty Lobby's "unsavory" nature:

          “Basically, there’s no way Fletcher could be unaware of the unsavory aspects of the Liberty Lobby. The Anti-Defamation Leagues keeps a close watch on the Liberty Lobby and are very aware of Fletcher’s involvement. It could come back to haunt us if we don’t find a way to deal with this.”

And Rusconi was apparently unaware that Prouty had actually spoken at an IHR Holocaust-denial conference and had written a letter praising the primary goals of the IHR's Holocaust-denying journal.

Yet, just the information that Rusconi found on Prouty should have been enough to cause Stone to drop him, but Stone decided to use Prouty as a source anyway. This decision came back to haunt Stone in a major way when critics pounced on Prouty's bogus claims and documented Prouty's record of prolonged and close associations with anti-Semites, Holocaust deniers, and white supremacists.

The critics of the “JFK” film - that is, the mainstream establishment - attacked (or “pounced on”) the film due to its overarching premise that Kennedy had been assassinated by a far-reaching officially sanctioned conspiracy. Specific reference to Lansdale, Prouty, John Newman etc do not really factor into this equation. In fact, outside of Anson’s Esquire Magazine hatchet-job, I’m not aware of Prouty, Newman, or Lansdale at the time being directly referred at all.  The idea that the entire Establishment was prepared to accept a JFK conspiracy hypothesis but pulled back from the abyss solely due to the film’s references to Lansdale, Prouty, and/or Vietnam is, outside of Leslie Gelb’s NY Times op/ed, almost entirely made-up.

Similarly, Prouty’s alleged “prolonged and close associations” with the Liberty Lobby milieu in fact consists of a single paid speaking engagement (for The Spotlight) and a contract for a small reprint run (500 copies) of “The Secret Team” (both occurring in September 1990). In context, at the time, both Mark Lane and Dick Gregory spoke at the same conference, Bernard Lewin’s “Report From Iron Mountain” was also reprinted by the same publishing house, and Noam Chomsky lectures on cassette were available from the publisher’s mail-order list.

[Joe Bauer]

Stones references to Lansdale in the film were no more visible than a quick back side shot of suited man walking by the three tramps and a small wooden name plate partially obscured on a desk.

98 % of viewers of that film surely didn't even know who General Lansdale was as well as Prouty and Newman.

Stone's film didn't advertise them personally. So criticism of Stone for that charge is mute.

[Robert Morrow]

5 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Stones references to Lansdale in the film were no more visible than a quick back side shot of suited man walking by the three tramps and a small wooden name plate partially obscured on a desk.

98 % of viewers of that film surely didn't even know who General Lansdale was as well as Prouty and Newman.

Stone's film didn't advertise them personally. So criticism of Stone for that charge is mute.

By putting Edward Lansdale's name plate in the movie JFK, Oliver Stone is OBVIOUSLY (and in my view correctly) indicting Lansdale for the JFK assassination. In my book that is a good thing.

Oliver Stone asked John Newman to go out to the Hoover Institution archives and see if he could find anything that might give Lansdale an alibi proving that he was not in the infamous three tramps photo. Instead John Newman and David Lifton found correspondence between Gen. Edward Lansdale and his friend Gen. "Hanging Sam" Williams in which Lansdale says I am coming down to see you this fall.

Gen. Williams lived in Denton, TX which is exactly 38 miles to the northwest of Dealey Plaza, Dallas TX.

Even worse than THAT in Max Boot's book he says that Lansdale had a job in the Johnson Administration in the Food for Peace program within 11 days of the JFK assassination. Lansdale's office was in the Old Executive Office Building ON WHITE HOUSE GROUNDS and in the same building that Vice president LYNDON JOHNSON had his White House office.

Edited February 14 by Robert Morrow