John Newman's JFK and Vietnam: 2017 Version

[James DiEugenio]

Every once in awhile, it pays to look at the big picture.  Recall, as Mr. X said, the rest is just scenery. 

Until I was working on the documentary I did not realize how substantive a rewrite John did on his already good book JFK and Vietnam.  Its even more conclusive now.

In this review, I also added some other key bits of information.  The only way America was going into Vietnam was with Kennedy out of the picture. And that is what happened.

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/john-newman-s-jfk-and-vietnam-2017-version

[Anthony Thorne]

Excellent review Jim. I read it, and will re-read it again tomorrow, as there’s quite a bit that deserves a chance to sink in.

John’s presentation today was good. 

[Chuck Schwartz]

I agree - Dr. Newman's presentation last night was very good. Especially liked the uncovering of Nixon's role in recovered poopoo  documents, one of which linked Dulles' support of the nazis in 1944. And, Dulles/ his firm helped fund Nixon's run for Congress.

Quote

 

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

poopoo = nazis

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Anthony.  

It took me a week to write that one.  The part about McNamara I thought was really telling, and in a way, tragic. The symptoms I talk about in my article were actually evident even earlier. This was at a dinner with Galbraith and Goodwin in late 1966. They said McNamara was utterly devastated emotionally over the fact that he had concluded Rolling Thunder was having no significant impact on the war.  In fact, he had figured that it actually was costing America more than it was Hanoi. But LBJ insisted on continuing it. 

 I now believe that what happened to him with LBJ was the reason he ordered the Pentagon Papers. And told everyone to keep it from Johnson.

In the Gravel version, there is a section entitled  Phased Withdrawal, 1962-64.

It is not in the Times version. I don't know if they did not have it, or if they just did not print it.  But with Sheehan running things, the latter is a possibility. And this is why I say that. 

https://kennedysandking.com/obituaries/neil-sheehan-in-retrospect

Edited June 24, 2021 by James DiEugenio

[W. Niederhut]

On 6/24/2021 at 1:26 AM, James DiEugenio said:

Every once in awhile, it pays to look at the big picture.  Recall, as Mr. X said, the rest is just scenery. 

Until I was working on the documentary I did not realize how substantive a rewrite John did on his already good book JFK and Vietnam.  Its even more conclusive now.

In this review, I also added some other key bits of information.  The only way America was going into Vietnam was with Kennedy out of the picture. And that is what happened.

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/john-newman-s-jfk-and-vietnam-2017-version

           Very interesting read.  It's disturbing to read the details about the widespread, persistent resistance in CIA and U.S. military circles to the JFK/Galbraith policy position about disengagement from the war against Hanoi.  Obviously, General Curtis LeMay and the Cold War hawks wanted to escalate U.S. military involvement in Southeast Asia, but so did Maxwell Taylor and several other key players.  

           I still wonder why Robert McNamara didn't resign in 1964, once he realized what was happening to JFK's Vietnam withdrawal policy.

           Was LBJ, possibly, blackmailing McNamara?

[James DiEugenio]

That is something that is really puzzling to me also William.

I actually think, and of course I am not an expert  like you, but I think McNamara ended up having a nervous breakdown.  Due to the emotional splits of having to obey what Johnson wanted, and realizing that not only was it useless, but it was a complete reversal of what he and Kennedy had agreed upon--through Galbraith.

Obviously, for his own mental health, McNamara should have resigned in 1964. The latest in 1965 when LBJ started the combat troop escalation.  Even his own kids ended up turning on him.  There was a student debate at Harvard in which his life was actually endangered. 

That dinner meeting I describe, its even worse than that.  Some of the people there actually said McNamara started showing signs of powerful mood swings, like his secretary had described in his office.  And that was in late 1966.

I have concluded that this was one of the reasons he ordered The Pentagon Papers study, and kept it secret from LBJ.  Realizing that what had happened was a complete turning around of what was originally intended.  And this had led to the most divisive American conflict since the Civil War.  Except, unlike that one, this was all based on lies, deceptions and fallacies.

[Matt Allison]

It's been many years since I've watched The Fog of War, but I wonder if McNamara gives any clues in that as to when his viewpoint about the war started to change.

After the film was released, he added more "lessons" that were added to the DVD release:

1. The human race will not eliminate war in this century, but we can reduce the brutality of war—the level of killing—by adhering to the principles of a "Just War," in particular to the principle of "proportionality."
2. The indefinite combinations of human fallibility and nuclear weapons will lead to the destruction of nations.
3. We [the U.S.A.] are the most powerful nation in the world—economically, politically, and militarily—and we are likely to remain so for decades ahead. But we are not omniscient. If we cannot persuade other nations with similar interests and similar values of the merits of the proposed use of that power, we should not proceed unilaterally except in the unlikely requirement to defend directly the continental U.S., Alaska and Hawaii.
4. Moral principles are often ambiguous guides to foreign policy and defense policy, but surely we can agree that we should establish as a major goal of U.S. foreign policy and, indeed, of foreign policy across the globe: the avoidance, in this century, of the carnage—160 million dead—caused by conflict in the 20th century.
5. We, the richest nation in the world, have failed in our responsibility to our own poor and to the disadvantaged across the world to help them advance their welfare in the most fundamental terms of nutrition, literacy, health and employment.
6. Corporate executives must recognize there is no contradiction between a soft heart and a hard head. Of course, they have responsibilities to stockholders, but they also have responsibilities to their employees, their customers and to society as a whole.
7. President Kennedy believed the primary responsibility of a president is to keep the nation out of war, if at all possible.
8. War is a blunt instrument by which to settle disputes between or within nations, and economic sanctions are rarely effective. Therefore, we should build a system of jurisprudence based on the International Court—that the U.S. has refused to support—which would hold individuals responsible for crimes against humanity.
9. If we are to deal effectively with terrorists across the globe, we must develop a sense of empathy—I don't mean "sympathy," but rather "understanding"—to counter their attacks on us and the Western World.
10. One of the greatest dangers we face today is the risk that terrorists will obtain access to weapons of mass destruction as a result of the breakdown of the Non-Proliferation Regime. We in the U.S. are contributing to that breakdown.

[James DiEugenio]

I have heard that there was a part about the Vietnam War that Morris cut out of the original but put back in for the later version.  And that this directly impacts the whole Vietnam issue.

Edited June 26, 2021 by James DiEugenio

[W. Niederhut]

5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

That is something that is really puzzling to me also William.

I actually think, and of course I am not an expert  like you, but I think McNamara ended up having a nervous breakdown.  Due to the emotional splits of having to obey what Johnson wanted, and realizing that not only was it useless, but it was a complete reversal of what he and Kennedy had agreed upon--through Galbraith.

Obviously, for his own mental health, McNamara should have resigned in 1964. The latest in 1965 when LBJ started the combat troop escalation.  Even his own kids ended up turning on him.  There was a student debate at Harvard in which his life was actually endangered. 

That dinner meeting I describe, its even worse than that.  Some of the people there actually said McNamara started showing signs of powerful mood swings, like his secretary had described in his office.  And that was in late 1966.

I have concluded that this was one of the reasons he ordered The Pentagon Papers study, and kept it secret from LBJ.  Realizing that what had happened was a complete turning around of what was originally intended.  And this had led to the most divisive American conflict since the Civil War.  Except, unlike that one, this was all based on lies, deceptions and fallacies.

I wonder if McNamara began to suspect after 11/22/63 that JFK's murder was linked to the abrupt shift in Vietnam War policy with LBJ at the helm.

Surely, he must have wondered.  And imagine how horrifying that suspicion must have been!

At the same time, he must have experienced a sense of personal danger in the event that he opted to talk or walk out on LBJ and the Joint Chiefs' war plans.

(This is just speculation on my part, because I have never read McNamara's memoirs, or any biographies.  And would he have told the straight story, under the circumstances?)

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

Enough to drive even an very intelligent industrialist to a nervous breakdown over time?

[James DiEugenio]

John said that when he first met McNamara its like he had tried to black out most of the Vietnam stuff.  He actually asked him once, "Where am I in trouble?"