A question regarding the RAMBLER

[Gil Jesus]

Roger Craig claimed to have seen Oswald running down the hill next to the TSBD and get into a Rambler station wagon which then sped off down Elm street headed for Oak Cliff. His claim has seemed to be supported by other witnesses who observed the same thing. The witnesses who saw the driver described him as being Latin or dark-skinned. When Oswald was arrested, he was confronted with the fact that Craig saw him jump into a car and said, "that's Mrs. Paine's station wagon, don't involve her in this." ( or something to that effect ) Much has been said over the years about Mrs. Paine not owning a Rambler, that she owned a 55 Chevy wagon, thus implying that this was just another lie that Oswald told the authorities. I could never figure out why a Latin guy would be driving Ruth Paine's station wagon.

So my question is this:

Has anyone ever considered that Oswald was referring to another Mrs. Paine and not Ruth Paine ?

Like maybe P-A-Y-N-E ?

Because if he meant P-A-Y-N-E, this gets very interesting.

You remember the guy who brought the two rifles into the TSBD two days before the assassination, Warren Caster, he testified that on the day of the assassination he was having lunch with Dr. Vernon V. Payne at the North Texas State University in Denton. Dr. Payne was the Chairman of the School of Business. This college was a hotbed for anti-Kennedy activity (students from this school were involved in the attack on Adlai Stevenson )  and at least one Latin student there was involved in a gun-running operation which trafficked stolen weapons from Fort Hood. These weapons were supposedly being stockpiled for a "second invasion of Cuba" the last week of November, 1963.

Prior to the Bay of Pigs invasion, Castro was to be killed.  I submit that prior to "the second invasion of Cuba", Kennedy was the target.

I recently read an article on the "kennedysandking" website that claimed that the TSBD was the location where these stolen weapons were stored. If true, one can see how any gunman didn't have to take a rifle into that building or leave with one. 

But I digress.

If anyone has any additional info on Payne or his wife please post it. Thanks.

[Steve Thomas]

2 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

I could never figure out why a Latin guy would be driving Ruth Paine's station wagon.

 

Gil,

It is my belief that the Rambler was owned by Raul Castro, an officer of of Dallas SNFE Chapter of Alpha 66 and who met at the house on Halandale into which Oswald was seen entering and exiting. The driver was Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro.

I explored this on my web page with an article entitled, "Possible Rambler Lead?"

https://myjfksite.weebly.com/

Steve Thomas

[Gil Jesus]

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Gil,

It is my belief that the Rambler was owned by Raul Castro, an officer of of Dallas SNFE Chapter of Alpha 66 and who met at the house on Halandale into which Oswald was seen entering and exiting. The driver was Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro.

I explored this on my web page with an article entitled, "Possible Rambler Lead?"

https://myjfksite.weebly.com/

Steve Thomas

Thanks Steve. I believe this house at 3126 Harlandale played a major role in the assassination of JFK. General Walker, the Cubans, gunrunning "stolen" guns from Fort Hood, students from North Texas State University in Denton, Ruby, Oswald.....you can almost put the whole thing together right from these associations. The only questions I have are what relationship did James Hosty have with all these right-wing groups ? I know it was his job to keep track of them, but was he playing both sides of the street ? Was he watching them and at the same time withholding what he was learning ? Was he running Oswald ? Oswald definitely was trying to avoid him. What relationship did Hosty have with Bill Shelley and/or Roy Truly ? How were they connected with this group ? Truly turned the cops on to Oswald. Hosty told them he was a Communist.

So many questions. What was going on there ?

[Ron Bulman]

10 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Gil,

It is my belief that the Rambler was owned by Raul Castro, an officer of of Dallas SNFE Chapter of Alpha 66 and who met at the house on Halandale into which Oswald was seen entering and exiting. The driver was Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro.

I explored this on my web page with an article entitled, "Possible Rambler Lead?"

https://myjfksite.weebly.com/

Steve Thomas

Hey Steve, I never knew about your website.  I'm reading the Rambler article but they all look interesting.  I'll be reading the rest in time, I'm bookmarking the site.  Regards, Ron. 

[Steve Thomas]

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Hey Steve, I never knew about your website.  I'm reading the Rambler article but they all look interesting.  I'll be reading the rest in time, I'm bookmarking the site.  Regards, Ron. 

Ron,

Thanks. Mostly it's a collection of notes that I have gathered from time to time on questions that have interested me.

Steve

[Mark Stevens]

I read an interesting story about the Rambler many years ago. I'm at work without access to my links, but here is a forum post on the article. 

I don't believe this is new to most of you. 

[John Butler]

What did Roger Craig see?

 

Richard Bartolomew: Rambler Station Wagon

---

 

By Robert Howard,
January 16, 2006 in JFK Assassination Debate

 

“Possible Discovery of an Automobile Used

In the JFK Conspiracy

Copyright © 1993 by Richard Bartholomew

Introduction

Ten minutes after President Kennedy was shot, Marvin Robinson, Helen Forrest and Dallas Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig, independently of each other, reportedly saw two men leaving Dealey Plaza in a light-colored Rambler station wagon. One of them entered the car on Elm Street after running from the direction of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD). Craig and Forrest described this man as being identical to Lee Harvey Oswald. A few minutes before this incident Richard Randolph Carr saw two of three men, who had come from behind the TSBD, enter what was apparently the same Rambler parked next to the building on Houston Street. He saw the third man enter the car seconds later on Record Street, one block east and two blocks south of the TSBD.”

It seems from this discussion that several people saw a light-colored Rambler, or Nash Rambler Station Wagon near the TBSD directly after the assassination.

Of the witnesses involved one must look to Dallas County Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig as the most important witness of this group.  One could suggest he was the most observant and informed of these witnesses who saw a Rambler station wagon.

Roger Craig was all over the assassination area directly after hearing shots on Main Street coming from the area of Dealey Plaza.  He immediately went there.  First off, let’s examine the Mauser issue briefly.  Roger Craig said he saw a rifle, a Mauser rifle, at the TSBD.  This was the rifle found on the 6^th floor.  He described it as a Mauser saying you could see stamped on the rifle 7.65 Mauser. 

Many say the 7.65 Mauser is easily mistaken for a Carcano rifle.  They say they are nearly identical in appearance.  I don’t think that is the case.  Observe the following comparison of the rifles and you will see that they have a different appearance, especially to those who are familiar with rifles of that era.

I have no doubt Roger Craig saw a 7.65 Mauser. 

In another incident directly after the assassination, Craig saw a light-colored Rambler stop and pick up a man who ran down the hill from the TSBD and get in the Rambler.  He later identified this man as Lee Harvey Oswald, or someone identical to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Would he know what a light-colored Rambler looked like as versus another vehicle mentioned, Ruth Paine’s 1955 Belair Chevrolet station wagon.  I would say yes since he was a policeman and vehicle identification was important for his job.  Here is a photo of a vehicle similar to Ruth Paine’s 1955 Chevy Wagon.

 

Notice the two-tone paint and look at the shape and structural details.  It is a large, long and linear shaped vehicle with a hood ornament and a side detail ornament.  These vehicles lacked a luggage rack on top of the vehicle.  These station wagons were generally two-toned in paint.  The plainer single paint variety generally lacked ornamental detail, but there seemed to be an intermediate and this best describes the Paine vehicle..

Let’s move on to Ruth’s vehicle.  This is composite showing a new appearing 1955 Chey Belair and Ruth’s Belair as it is in recent history.

Would Roger Craig mistake this vehicle for a light colored Rambler station wagon?  That is the question here and best examined by looking at Ramblers from that period.  Craig did not give the year of the vehicle so we will look at a 1955 Rambler and a 1960 Rambler as a way to compare the two.

 

The 1960 model looks a little like the Chevy Belair.  Other models of the Nash Rambler station wagon do not.  The biggest difference in the 1960 model that resembles the 1955 Belair is the luggage rack on the Ramblers.

There is a good probability that Craig would not have mistaken the vehicle.  He saw a light-colored Nash Rambler.  I would suspect that the Paine vehicle was introduced to get disinformation into the investigation and link Oswald to the Paine vehicle as he was linked to a rifle allegedly stored in the Paine’s garage.

Edited July 30, 2021 by John Butler

[Stu Wexler]

The problem with the Mauser issue is we have the Alyea film which conclusively shows a Carcano. We need to focus on issues that have not been long debunked. 

[Denny Zartman]

14 minutes ago, Stu Wexler said:

The problem with the Mauser issue is we have the Alyea film which conclusively shows a Carcano. We need to focus on issues that have not been long debunked. 

The Carcano has "Made Italy" and "Cal 6.5" printed on it. So how did three officers, one of whom had run a store that sold rifles, think it was a German-made rifle of a different caliber? If we can tell it it is a Carcano by looking at the film, how could it be mistaken for a Mauser by people who saw it in person and actually handled it? Something that was arguably the single most important piece of evidence that those officers would handle in their entire lives.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Denny Zartman

[Stu Wexler]

Yes. They made a mistake. We have the weapon in the relevant area and time on the Alyea film. It is 100% a Carcano and not a Mauser.  Look at this from another perspective: why would you go to enormous lengths to connect Oswald to the MC and then not even bother to fire it on tbe day of??

[Denny Zartman]

11 minutes ago, Stu Wexler said:

Yes. They made a mistake. We have the weapon in the relevant area and time on the Alyea film. It is 100% a Carcano and not a Mauser.  Look at this from another perspective: why would you go to enormous lengths to connect Oswald to the MC and then not even bother to fire it on tbe day of??

You genuinely believe that the Dallas police could not read?

[Gil Jesus]

54 minutes ago, Stu Wexler said:

Yes. They made a mistake. We have the weapon in the relevant area and time on the Alyea film. It is 100% a Carcano and not a Mauser.  Look at this from another perspective: why would you go to enormous lengths to connect Oswald to the MC and then not even bother to fire it on tbe day of??

Stu, you're assuming that only one rifle was found in the building and that three sheriffs deputies were all wrong in their description of it. But they were sure enough about what they saw that they filed sworn affidavits under oath and under penalty of perjury. I doubt I would do that unless I was absolutely sure of what I was attesting to. Also, the descriptions of the witnesses who saw the rifle in the window before and during the shooting DO NOT match the Depository rifle. Arnold Rowland's detailed description of the rifle he saw is especially convincing. How can all of these witnesses describe a rifle other than the Depository rifle and be wrong ?

Edited July 30, 2021 by Gil Jesus

[John Butler]

30 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Stu, you're assuming that only one rifle was found in the building and that three sheriffs deputies were all wrong in their description of it. But they were sure enough about what they saw that they filed sworn affidavits under oath and under penalty of perjury. I doubt I would do that unless I was absolutely sure of what I was attesting to. Also, the descriptions of the witnesses who saw the rifle in the window before and during the shooting DO NOT match the Depository rifle. Arnold Rowland's detailed description of the rifle he saw is especially convincing. How can all of these witnesses describe a rifle other than the Depository rifle and be wrong ?

Wexler may not have considered the time issue of when the weapon was found and what happened to the Mauser seen by Roger Craig.  There are different accounts of when the weapon was found.  Some of these suggest as late as 1:30 or 2:30.  Craig's time for the finding of the rifle is 12:50 to 1:06.  One fellow took measurements of the angle of the sun coming through the windows and calculated that the filming by Tom Alyea could have happened during the time period 1:30 to 5:30.  

There is an interesting timeline on the net from a newsguy.com that is relevant:

At Least Two Frame Rifles And Two Sets Of 3 Frame Bullet Shells

 Were In The Texas School Book Depository

On 11-22-63

A 7.65 Mauser Rifle Was Found Then Hid On The Roof Then A 6.5 Carcano Rifle Was Found

and the related two sets of 3 frame bullet shells

And A 7.65 Mauser Magic Bullet Became A 6.5 Carcano Magic Bullet While In Evidence

The conspirators had to plant the Mauser then later swap the Carcano with the Mauser possibly because Oswald the patsy wasn't killed in the TSBD as planned and he fled the 5th or 6th floor,

possibly taking the Carcano and leaving it on a lower floor until the conspirators found it and planted it on the 5th floor after 1:30 p.m.

then DPD personnel (Fritz and Day?) moved it to the 6th floor where it was filmed at 1:55 p.m.

 

 

Roscoe White stated he killed JFK using a 7.65 Mauser

=

This implies all 3 snipers and the distraction shooter (Richard Cain in the Frame Oswald Window) were using 7.65 Mauser

 

This is a timeline I constructed regarding the finding of the two frame rifles in the TSBD on 11-22-63:

 

12:50 p.m. to 1:06 p.m. Finding Of The Mauser

 

1:06 p.m. Most Of The Finders Of The Mauser (including Roger Craig and presumably including Will Fritz) leave the TSBD upon hearing the news over the cop radio of Tippit's death

 

1:22 p.m. The Carcano Was Found Per Unsigned Testimony Produced By The Warren Commission For Deputy Weitzman

 

1:25 p.m. Finding Of The Mauser On The Roof

 

1:30 p.m.+  Ellsworth enters TSBD with Will Fritz; Finding Of The Carcano On 5th Floor By Ellsworth et al.

1:30 p.m.+  Frame 6.5 Carcano "Magic Bullet" (rounded tip) swapped into evidence for 7.65 Mauser "Magic Bullet" (pointed tip)

 

1:55 p.m. Filming Of The Carcano with Fritz, Day, et al. but not Roger Craig

 

+/-2:00 p.m. Lt. Day Leaves the TSBD Elm With The Carcano

 

+/-2:30 p.m. Tom Alyea's Film Left the TSBD

       (there may have been film made by others, like for the 1:55 p.m. filming of the Carcano, which also left the TSBD at +/-2:30 p.m., then all the film synthesized into "The Alyea Film")

 

+/-2:45 p.m. Lt. Day Was Back On The 6th Floor, Perhaps In Regard To Assassination Evidence

 

+/-2:30 p.m. to 3:15 p.m.+  A WFAA News Director Has Some Of Tom Alyea's Film Frames Burned

(presumably the frames showing the 7.65 Mauser and showing Captain Fritz picking up the 3 bullet shells,

and maybe even showing Lt. Day ejecting a live round from the Mauser as witnessed by Roger Craig);

also Captain Fritz got a copy of Tom Alyea's films at some point

 

"Sometime after 3.15 pm the first Alyea film was telecast." On TV

from   http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15040

 

At Some Point Captain Fritz's Copies Of Tom Alyea's Films Are Lost

(presumably because they had the frames of the 7.65 Mauser and the frames showing Captain Fritz picking up the 3 bullet shells,

and maybe even showing Lt. Day ejecting a live round from the Mauser as witnessed by Roger Craig )

 There is another interesting thing I didn't know about the Sniper's Nest.  Two live rounds were found that day.  One in the rifle and one wedged into a crack in the floor boards of the Sniper's Nest.  This is a crop and magnification of the area of the Sniper's Nest.

 

[John Butler]

Here is more interesting info:

I don’t want to side track the Belair/Rambler issue.  I put the info on the Carcano/Mauser issue in to portray Roger Craig as a keen, observant witness. 

IMO, I have never read a convincing article debunking the Mauser found at the TSBD.  Perhaps, folks ought to look at the time issue more closely.  What was the time the Carcano was found?  How much time had passed between the 3 police officers seeing the rifle and Alyea filming Day with the rifle.  And, when did Capt. Fritz have it in his hands?

 

Do your homework.

http://www.jfk-online.com/alyea.html

Tom Alyea, "Facts and Photos"

 From Connie Kritzberg's Secrets from the Sixth Floor Window, pp. 39-46

“The barricade on the sixth floor ran parallel to the windows,
extending in an "L" shape that ended against the front wall between the
first and second twin windows. The height of the stack of boxes was a
minimum of 5 ft. I looked over the barricade and saw three shell casings
laying on the floor in front of the second window in the two window
casement. They were scattered in an area that could be covered by a
bushel basket. They were located about half way between the inside of
the barricade. I set my lens focus at the estimated distance from the
camera to the floor and held the camera over the top of the barricade
and filmed them before anybody went into the enclosure. I could not
position my eye to the camera's view finder to get the shot. After
filming the casings with my wide angle lens, from a height of 5 ft., I
asked Captain Fritz, who was standing at my side, if I could go behind
the barricade and get a close-up shot of the casings. He told me that it
would be better if I got my shots from outside the barricade. He then
rounded the pile of boxes and entered the enclosure. This was the first
time anybody walked between the barricade and the windows.”

When the casing was filmed where was the long paper bag which had held the rifle?  And, what about the report that the shell casings were close together and aligned?

“(The police photo showing the shell casings laying next to the brick wall was staged later by crime lab people who did not see the original
positioning because they were not called upon the scene until after the
rifle was found nearly an hour later.) . . .”

The shell casings were found first and a hour later the rifle was found.  That makes it about 2:00 when the rifle was found. 

“Only recently I saw a picture of Lt. Day with a news still
cameraman on the 6th floor. Day was shown pointing to the location where
the rifle was found. This was nearly 3:30 or after. It was my
understanding that Day and Studebaker had taken the prints, rifle and
homemade sack back to police headquarters. I personally would like to
know what they were doing back at the scene unless it was to reconstruct
shots they had failed to take during the primary investigation. But this
evidence had been destroyed and they were forced to create their own
version. The photo I have seen of the barricade wasn't even close. I
have also seen recently a police photo of the assassin's lair taken from
a high angle which indicates that it was shot before the barricade box
arrangement was destroyed, but it did not show the barricade itself.
This has no bearing on the case other than the public has never seen the
original placement. . .”

3:30 and Day and a cameraman our still at work at the TSBD filming what?

[Gil Jesus]

2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Here is more interesting info:

The shell casings were found first and a hour later the rifle was found.  That makes it about 2:00 when the rifle was found. 

 

According to Boone's affidavit, the "Mauser" was found at 1:22 pm. If both of those times are correct, doesn't sound like the same rifle to me.