JACKIE ON THE TRUNK- NIX VS ZAPRUDER

[Chris Bristow]

The longstanding alteration theory about Jackie's position on the trunk in the Nix film is that she is farther out on the trunk than in the Z film. I think many consider it to be just a matter of perspective. I wanted to put an accurate measurement to the Nix and Z images and see if it is just perspective. I'm using Nix frame 85 and Z 377. In the overhead diagram of the limo below Nix's line of sight is shown by the two red lines entering from the left. I drew two red lines to give a range of possible lines of sight to Jackie's pink hat because the tail light, the reference point, is blurry.
 The blue lines on the right represent Z's line of sight in fr 377. The blue line passes about 1 inch or two behind the right hand hold and also points to the front of Jackie's hat as the red lines do. Where these blue and red lines meet is the key. If the front of Jackie's hat sat where the red and blue lines meet then that location on the trunk would satisfy the positions we see her in in both Z and Nix.
  A big part of the perspective issue comes from the fact that Nix's view is so low we can't see where Jackie is along the red line. If she was close to the left side of the trunk she would be farther out on the trunk. But she could also be closer to the right hand hold as shown by where the blue and red lines meet.
  I think the position of her left hand next to the antenna gives a good approximation of where her head is(left to right). The two antenna that sit inboard are about 30 inches apart and are each 15 inches from the center of the trunk. Her hand is just slightly obscured by the base of the antenna and I assume her hand is maybe 3 inches from it. That puts her hand 12 inches from the center line of the trunk. She is leaning over that hand somewhat as she has taken some of the weight off her right hand to slide it forward. I will assume her head is almost over her left hand so 9 to 12 inches from center. I know that was a whole lot of estimating and assumptions so take it as a  rough estimate
The top red line on the trunk meets the blue line 9 inches from center, so if her head was 9 inches from center then it all makes sense. How far her head was from center is the one variable that you will have to judge for yourselves. Imo, the difference we see in Nix and Z is likely just a matter of perspective not alteration.

The second issue is her right elbow appears to be way above the trunk in Z 377 with her forearm pointing upward at maybe 70 degrees. In the Nix frame it is obvious that her forearm is very low, almost parallel to the trunk. This is definitely a matter of perspective that makes her arm appear to be pointing upward in the Z frame when it is really very low as seen in the Nix frame. The image below of the wooden figure shows the same arm position from the Nix and Z perspectives. Jackie's elbow is pointing directly away from Z so we don't see any of the bending of the elbow joint. The arm looks more like one long straight limb. This makes it hard to tell if the forearm is pointing away from Z and is low or the forearm is pointing more upward. This is because in a 2d image of a 3d world moving up in the frame of the image could mean something is farther away, but it can also represent something that is higher off the ground. A good example is the left side of the limo is higher as it is farther away but obviously tall images raise up in a frame too.  So when the elbow is pointing directly away from Z it will be higher in the frame because it is farther in the distance than her hand(Just about as much as two sides of each hand hold.) but if you can't see the elbow location due to a blurry image you can mistake what is farther away for being higher up),
I believe the two images of the wooden model prove this effect. I also added some blur to the arm to hide the elbow joint because it is fairly blurry in Z 377 and adds to the illusion.

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Chris Bristow

[Jonathan Cohen]

3 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Imo, the difference we see in Nix and Z is likely just a matter of perspective not alteration.

Chris, thank you for this sensible analysis and for not starting with a pre-determined conclusion on the issue. What you've shown here is that like it or not, the Dealey Plaza photo record is self-authenticating.

[Chris Davidson]

Or,

You could stabilize/sync the two moving films, this one starting four frames after Chris' comparison frames and show how it is humanly possible (when Jackie's elbow hits the trunk lid in Nix with her rear end above the back seat, while looking down at JFK bent over across the back seat) she is able to sit back down in her seat in 6 extant z frames which is less than one third of a second.

Pull out your stopwatches and clock 1/3 of a second.

Next step, find a convertible and plant yourself in Jackie's position while someone pushes you back down towards the seat.

Report your timing results. Still waiting!!! (I've recreated this and 1/3 second is a farce.)

Finally, ask yourself is it a coincidence that the Nix film ends where it ends in this sequence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

Amazing side-by-side video posting and presentation.

You guys are really talented. 

This forum is the best greatly because of the contributions like this from it's members.

Question that pops up continually when I watch film of Jackie climbing out of her seat and onto the trunk:

Was she trying to get out of that death cage? And Clint Hill made her go back with his body blocking presence and "go back" hand gestures?

Or was she actually retrieving a piece of JFK's skull or chunk of his brain that she saw explode off and onto the trunk?

She was staring right at JFK face and head when it exploded.

Too me it looks like the latter.

And once she had the skull or brain chunk in her grasp, she started moving back into her seat on her own volition.  Hill's leaping up presence was not the reason she went back and down into her seat. Even in shock beyond words, Jackie Kennedy was not going to leave her obliterated bloody husband alone in that back seat.

[Paul Bacon]

Chris and Chris, what great posts!!  Thanks.

[Richard Price]

13 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

The two antenna that sit inboard are about 30 inches apart and are each 15 inches from the center of the trunk.

Chris, thank you for your work.  I wanted to point out a couple of inaccuracies to hopefully help you refine your positioning (if you are still refining it).  The distance from  the inner edges of the handholds, which you reference as antenna is 36" instead of 30", making the center point of the trunk 18" from the mid-line of the trunk.  Using measurements from my wife who is approximately the same height, I would also add the following "guestimates":  Jackie is 67" tall.  Given that she has her knees and lower legs wedged into the front of the back seat for stability, that would leave approximately 47" for her torso and head.  Estimate about 9"-10" for her head, that leaves in the range of 37" of her torso (to the shoulders) stretched across the trunk at a slight angle.  The distance from the front of the back seat to the front edge of the handholds is approximately 49", therefore her shoulders should reach about 12' forward of the handholds whose rear edge is approximately 6'-7" from the rear edge of the trunk.  I don't have a measurement of the handholds from front to back, but they are probably between 1"-2" for ease of grasping when mounting the car.  The rearward reach of her hand onto the trunk is more difficult to estimate since her arms are at an angle instead of straight out from her shoulders.  Assuming that her arms are in the same proportion as my wife's (same height), her hands could be all the way to the rear at the same position as the rear handholds or within an inch or two.

 

PS:  I hope my reply is not replicating (somewhere), I tried to post it and it just disappeared from my screen.

[Chris Bristow]

17 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Chris, thank you for this sensible analysis and for not starting with a pre-determined conclusion on the issue. What you've shown here is that like it or not, the Dealey Plaza photo record is self-authenticating.

Some erroneous theories arise from comparisons of the Nix and Z films. I expect the most famous murder mystery of the last century will have many false theories surrounding it. So I would expect to find the majority of alteration theories to be wrong. But that does not mean all theories are wrong. As an example I find the theory about the lack of pincushion Distortion in the Stemmons Freeway sign to be very compelling.

[Chris Bristow]

8 hours ago, Richard Price said:

Chris, thank you for your work.  I wanted to point out a couple of inaccuracies to hopefully help you refine your positioning (if you are still refining it).  The distance from  the inner edges of the handholds, which you reference as antenna is 36" instead of 30", making the center point of the trunk 18" from the mid-line of the trunk.  Using measurements from my wife who is approximately the same height, I would also add the following "guestimates":  Jackie is 67" tall.  Given that she has her knees and lower legs wedged into the front of the back seat for stability, that would leave approximately 47" for her torso and head.  Estimate about 9"-10" for her head, that leaves in the range of 37" of her torso (to the shoulders) stretched across the trunk at a slight angle.  The distance from the front of the back seat to the front edge of the handholds is approximately 49", therefore her shoulders should reach about 12' forward of the handholds whose rear edge is approximately 6'-7" from the rear edge of the trunk.  I don't have a measurement of the handholds from front to back, but they are probably between 1"-2" for ease of grasping when mounting the car.  The rearward reach of her hand onto the trunk is more difficult to estimate since her arms are at an angle instead of straight out from her shoulders.  Assuming that her arms are in the same proportion as my wife's (same height), her hands could be all the way to the rear at the same position as the rear handholds or within an inch or two.

 

PS:  I hope my reply is not replicating (somewhere), I tried to post it and it just disappeared from my screen.

Thank you and your wife for the input. Jackie was 5'7", you nailed that. I found it hard to get anything accurate about the distance between the handholds. The Limo drawing from the HSCA that I used puts the distance as 36" and the width of the limo at 76.8". But when I size the limo to a 76mm width the distance between the hand holds measures 40" which left me  confused. The HSCA drawing has many things wrong with it including the position and length of the windshield. 
 I put the antenna at 30" to err on the side of caution. The farther the antenna is from the center line the easier it is to support my theory on her position so I placed the antenna more inboard.
There are certain facts we can be sure of because we have 2 different lines of sight from very different directions. I used two lines of sight for Nix to give a range of possible locations for the front of Jackie's hat. Her hat has to fall in that range somewhere. The photo comparison puts her hat between 5" and 14" back from the base of the hand holds depending on how far the hat is from the center line. Her right hand appearing behind the left side of the right hand hold in fr 377 tells us the palm of her hand is somewhere between 2" and 5" back from the base of the hand holds. The fact that the palm of her right hand appears behind the base of the handhold in 377 and the fact Z's line of sight is around 28 degrees means the palm of her right hand has to be several inches back from the base of the hand holds.
 You put her shoulders about 12" back from the hand holds. I will subtract  just 8" for the head because I am measuring to the front of the hat. That puts her hat 4" back from the hand hold. Does that match your estimate? I get 5" to 12". I think the photographic evidence may not allow for her hat to only 4" from the hand holds. The point at which Z's blue line of sight is 4" from the hand hold occurs when the blue line is directly behind the hand hold.

[Chris Davidson]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:23 PM, Jonathan Cohen said:

Chris, thank you for this sensible analysis and for not starting with a pre-determined conclusion on the issue. What you've shown here is that like it or not, the Dealey Plaza photo record is self-authenticating.

I understand that many are not interested in doing any of the leg work involved to show the photo record is altered because of preconceived notions, so I'll provide them with an easy example/assignment.

There are two obvious clues why this frame is a composite of at least two consecutive frames in the extant record.

Locate those two consecutive individual frames and the discussion about Z film alteration is finished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sean Coleman]

Most excellent clear stills.

Just a thought- can’t see any brain matter/skull fragments Jackie may have been reaching for? 

[Chris Davidson]

"Easy Like Sunday Morning"

[Richard Price]

19 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I get 5" to 12"

I think that's about as close as one can estimate without a high dollar "scientific study".🤣

PS:  I just used the schematic from the House Select Committee which claimed to be the limo as configured on 11/22/63.

[Chris Bristow]

1 hour ago, Richard Price said:

I think that's about as close as one can estimate without a high dollar "scientific study".🤣

PS:  I just used the schematic from the House Select Committee which claimed to be the limo as configured on 11/22/63.

I used the HSCA schematic too. I think the trunk is pretty accurate except for the distance between the hand holds which is marked 36". But when I size the image to match the width at 76.8" and the length at 256/ 258" the dist between the hand holds measures 38". As I mentioned before the placement of the windshield(Visors) is about 12" too far forward. Any lines of sight calculated using the windshield in the HSCA diagram compared to photos of the limo will be wrong.
 Because we know Z's exact elevation above the limo and his angle off  in all frames of the Z film we should be able to create a very accurate map of the trunk. Even if we have to adjust the HSCA length vs width I think it could be determined within 2 inches. but it would take considerable effort. I think as it stands the lines of sight of Jackie on the trunk  in Nix and Z are so close that it refutes this particular alteration theory.

[Chris Bristow]

Note the windshield placement.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lRHFR1z7p5vTjyEDi8dSx4oiGHp8dREs/view?usp=sharing

[Richard Price]

39 minutes ago, Chris Bristow said:

Note the windshield placement.

I had not seen the joint schematic/side view of the limo together.  The schematic and side depiction are completely different.  Is the side depiction supposed to be SS 300x?  It has no rear step on bumper.  The front door edges (side depiction) are a good 4" to 6" forward of the schematic, the center brace section rear edge is actually at what is shown to be the front edge on the schematic.  Whether on purpose or accidental, I think the schematic may represent the POST assassination rebuilt vehicle that Johnson used.  I had encountered that thought when I first pulled the schematic up and now I am pretty sure that is the case.  However, this is the only schematic I could find and it is labeled as the assassination vehicle.  I think that we may need to find the configuration and measurements from another document (IF one exists).  This vehicle shows NO handholds on the rear either.