COUP IN DALLAS

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

I'd never thought about Oswald being stationed at El Torro.  It surprised me but makes sense.  I knew he went to basic training in Southern California which I inferred was Camp/Fort Pendleton just north of San Diego on the coast.  Then he received his radar training in Mississippi.  From there all I remember reading about was U2, Atsugi, Japan.  Of course, he would have been stationed somewhere after radar training before shipping out and after coming back before his discharge.  Having researched El Torro a little I already knew it was the largest USMC aviation base in the US.  Built in the country outside LA (now Irvine) at the start of WWII it was still very active in the late 1950's.  I should have realized he would have been stationed there.

This caught my attention because it means Oswald had this in common with my dad.  As a Marine Corp reservist working in the MIC (Vought) with a pilot's license in 1950 when Korea came about, he was called into service.  Put on a train to California overseeing two raw recruits due to his Army/Sargent status at the end of WWII he ended up at El Torro, they went to Pendleton.  He only had to serve six months; all there, never went to Korea.

As an aside.  While there, soon after his arrival he became the base general's crew chief on his C47/Gooneybird/DC3 by good fortune.  Also, soon after his arrival the film Flying Leathernecks was shot in part at El Torro (the had lots of Corsair's there).  Because of a very small role in procuring an airplane for use in the film he went to steaks and drinks in a tent with officers and host John Wayne. 

Posts disappear so quickly on here.

[Pete Mellor]

10 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Of course, he would have been stationed somewhere after radar training before shipping out and after coming back before his discharge. 

Ron, that's another million-dollar question, 'stationed where after coming back before his discharge'?

Seeing as how the Marine Corps weren't paying Oswald's last quarter of earnings prior to his defection to the Soviet Union.

[Leslie Sharp]

On 9/20/2022 at 7:48 AM, Pete Mellor said:

Ron, that's another million-dollar question, 'stationed where after coming back before his discharge'?

Seeing as how the Marine Corps weren't paying Oswald's last quarter of earnings prior to his defection to the Soviet Union.

On the question of Lee Harvey Oswald as patsy:

 

'And in mid-November 1963, Pierre Lafitte, in New Orleans, would jot down in his datebook: “On the wings of murder. The pigeon way for unsuspecting Lee [Oswald]. Clip, clip his wings,” no doubt a reference to Jean Filliol’s tactic of manipulation within his assassin camps. — Coup in Dallas

 

Among the Dick Russell's bullet points in his analysis of Pierre Lafitte's datebook which is the center of Hank Albarelli's investigation:

 

• That Lee Harvey Oswald was just as he claimed after his arrest – a patsy set up to take the fall (“October 25: Oswald set in place,” meaning that he was set in place in Texas School Book Depository building. November 9: “On the wings of murder. The Pigeon way for unsuspecting Lee.”

 

From Coup in Dallas: ' . . . The answer may be found in the synonymous terms, “patsy,” “pigeon,” “scapegoat,” understood in the collective as one who is sacrificed to take the blame for a crime; one whose role is to distract investigators while the criminals go “scot-free.” . . .

 

. . . Even in death, Oswald continued to fulfill the critical function of diversion for almost six decades. Millions still fail to fully understand the coup in Dallas because, for many, Lee Harvey Oswald continues to be the central focus of research into the cold case. Even those insisting on his utter and complete innocence have, to a degree, perpetuated the deleterious effect the patsy has had on the pursuit of truth. Committed to interrupting that cycle, this investigation avoided the pitfalls and considered Oswald’s cameo performances in the broadest context of the drama. Who cast him in the role, and who could maneuver him onto stage at the right time? It was evident from Lafitte’s records that caretaker was key.'

Edited September 24, 2022 by Leslie Sharp

[Joe Bauer]

If Oswald killed JFK to make a name for himself, or to impress Castro and the Cubans the question is still ...why proclaim his innocence? Why proclaim "I am just a patsy?"

 

He's sabotaging his goal of wanting to make a name for himself with the former statement to the world press, and the personal glory he was seeking from Cuba with the latter imo.

Oswald was not just a stupid unconnected lone nut.

To me the proof of his true larger picture connections to nefarious others was his killing less that 48 hours after JFK's.

Ruby's easy access into the DPD basement with 70 armed men there at the perfect time and at the perfect body close location to Oswald was so preposterous it screams a conspiracy within the DPD to get Oswald before they lost custody of him to the County authorities.

Oswald had to die.  And quickly.

For incredibly more important reasons than Ruby needing to prove Jews had guts and Jackie Kennedy had to be saved from an Oswald trial.

Oswald had to die and in just hours after his arrest because he "was not just a minimum wage warehouse worker lone nut" who defeated an army of armed security protecting JFK all by himself with the cheapest old WW II rifle and scope available, and then simply walked through a horde of highest anxiety police forces to a city bus stop, and when traffic stalls he catches a cab home, and actually tipped the cab driver a nickel ( fare was 95 cents and Oswald told the driver to keep the change from a dollar bill ) while doing so.

I think generally, it's that simple to understand.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Brancato]

Joe - agree. We were asked to accept a string of improbables. It all goes to Leslie’s point. If he was a patsy, who was running the show? Studying his every breath only matters in that context. 

[Michael Griffith]

I think it boils down to this: If we want more people to realize that JFK's murder was a despicable, vile act of treason committed by powerful immoral people, we cannot insult a large chunk of our audience. 

No matter how much one wants to twist and distort JFK's statements and record, the fact of the matter is that he was conservative on some issues, moderate on some issues, and liberal on some issues. But the more important point is that his murder would be just as vile and unacceptable if he had been a Goldwater Republican or a Eugene McCarthy Democrat. Honest, ethical prosecutors do not let a murder victim's politics determine how vigorously they prosecute his killers.

 

[Paul Brancato]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

I think it boils down to this: If we want more people to realize that JFK's murder was a despicable, vile act of treason committed by powerful immoral people, we cannot insult a large chunk of our audience. 

No matter how much one wants to twist and distort JFK's statements and record, the fact of the matter is that he was conservative on some issues, moderate on some issues, and liberal on some issues. But the more important point is that his murder would be just as vile and unacceptable if he had been a Goldwater Republican or a Eugene McCarthy Democrat. Honest, ethical prosecutors do not let a murder victim's politics determine how vigorously they prosecute his killers.

 

Michael - your point on this is nearly incomprehensible to me. Your second paragraph does not support your first. Yes it would be just as vile a murder no matter what the political stance of the victim. So how you define JFK as a president is a separate argument entirely from your objections to Coup in Dallas and it’s authors, who clearly take the position that their evidence points to a far right conspiracy. How is that insulting to you? Their not writing the book to make everyone happy about their conclusions. Authors have written books and articles blaming Castro for the murder. I don’t find their writing convincing, but I certainly don’t feel alienated by their conclusions. 

[Leslie Sharp]

3 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

I think it boils down to this: If we want more people to realize that JFK's murder was a despicable, vile act of treason committed by powerful immoral people, we cannot insult a large chunk of our audience. 

No matter how much one wants to twist and distort JFK's statements and record, the fact of the matter is that he was conservative on some issues, moderate on some issues, and liberal on some issues. But the more important point is that his murder would be just as vile and unacceptable if he had been a Goldwater Republican or a Eugene McCarthy Democrat. Honest, ethical prosecutors do not let a murder victim's politics determine how vigorously they prosecute his killers.

 

I don't understand what "insulting an audience", intentional or not, has to do with solving a cold case murder investigation.

The perceived politics of the victim, John Kennedy, are certainly relevant. Rabid anti-communists and proto-fascists of the period were persuaded President Kennedy was soft on communism. In fact, the Ellen Rometsch Affair was a set up, the final straw, to convince those on the fence that his murder was not simply justified, but an imperative for the survival of "our nation."  

Edited September 25, 2022 by Leslie Sharp

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:

I don't understand what "insulting an audience", intentional or not, has to do with solving a cold case murder investigation.

The perceived politics of the victim, John Kennedy, are certainly relevant. Rabid anti-communists and proto-fascists of the period were persuaded President Kennedy was soft on communism. In fact, the Ellen Rometsch Affair was a set up, the final straw, to convince those on the fence that his murder was not simply justified, but an imperative for the survival of "our nation."  

Agree.

[David Lifton]

On 9/19/2022 at 2:13 AM, Bob Ness said:

Let me guess. Homer and Bart Simpon?

P.S. Suggest you put up a decent photo of yourself.  The one posted --perhaps because of bad lighting-- gives the appearance of Darth Vader. Yikes!

[Michael Griffith]

On 9/17/2022 at 1:51 PM, Leslie Sharp said:

No Ron, I was hoping to discuss Monterrey with Michael Griffiths as I have a couple of friends he may have crossed paths with. 

Hi, Leslie. Yes, I was at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, twice, from 1982-1984 (Arabic) and from 1986-1987 (Hebrew). DLI is also known as the Presidio of Monterey because that's the official name of the Army installation where DLI is located. 

When I began to study the JFK case and came across Rankin's comment that Oswald attended "the Monterey School of the Army," it jumped out at me because I knew from my own experience that 99% of the military people who are sent to DLI work in an intelligence field, and that no one goes there unless they receive orders to go there.

I'm saying 99% just to be safe. In fact, I never knew any military person at DLI who did not work in an intelligence field.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Sean Coleman]

2 hours ago, David Lifton said:

P.S. Suggest you put up a decent photo of yourself.  The one posted --perhaps because of bad lighting-- gives the appearance of Darth Vader. Yikes!

…..Emperor Palpatine David!

(am a Star Wars nerd….)

[Joe Bauer]

On 9/24/2022 at 7:14 PM, Paul Brancato said:

Joe - agree. We were asked to accept a string of improbables. 

A string a mile long.

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Hi, Leslie. Yes, I was at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, twice, from 1982-1984 (Arabic) and from 1986-1987 (Hebrew). DLI is also known as the Presidio of Monterey because that's the official name of the Army installation where DLI is located. 

When I began to study the JFK case and came across Rankin's comment that Oswald attended "the Monterey School of the Army," it jumped out at me because I knew from my own experience that 99% of the military people who are sent to DLI work in an intelligence field, and that no one goes there unless they receive orders to go there.

I'm saying 99% just to be safe. In fact, I never knew any military person at DLI who did not work in an intelligence field.

I live right next to the DLI.

I have lived a few miles from it most of my life starting from the age of 1.

I grew up with scores of children who's parents or grandparents worked there.

Russians, Hungarians, Chinese, Burmese, you name it. 

I don't have time right now to relate the hundreds of anecdotal stories I have regarding these people, but if Lee Harvey Oswald actually spent time studying there you truly have a game changing aspect to his background.

 

[Michael Griffith]

23 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

I live right next to the DLI.

I have lived a few miles from it most of my life starting from the age of 1.

I grew up with scores of children who's parents or grandparents worked there.

Russians, Hungarians, Chinese, Burmese, you name it. 

Wow! What a small world! My wife and I lived in Marina both times I attended DLI. Housing in Monterey was too expensive for us. Marina was the closest place that had halfway affordable housing. In fact, we lived in a nice HUD apartment complex both times we were there.

Rankin's comment is important because he does not dispute that Oswald went to DLI, but he says they're trying to find out what Oswald studied while there. When DLI moved from SF to Monterey, it was originally named the Army Language School, and the Army base that hosted it was (and still is) the Presidio of Monterey. So, Rankin's reference to trying to find out what Oswald studied at the "Monterey School of the Army" is all the more interesting. 

Oswald could have been sent to DLI on a temporary training assignment from his regular duty station, and if his presence at DLI was deemed classified, any reference to his time at DLI could have been omitted from his service record. Some military personnel who attend DLI are there on TDY/TAD orders, i.e., temporary orders. Once they finish their training, they go back to their regular duty station or to their next duty station.