COUP IN DALLAS

[Bob Ness]

16 hours ago, David Lifton said:

P.S. Suggest you put up a decent photo of yourself.  The one posted --perhaps because of bad lighting-- gives the appearance of Darth Vader. Yikes!

I'm taller hahaha! IOW I'm ok with that!

Edited September 30, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Leslie Sharp]

On 9/29/2022 at 7:23 AM, Michael Griffith said:

Hi, Leslie. Yes, I was at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, twice, from 1982-1984 (Arabic) and from 1986-1987 (Hebrew). DLI is also known as the Presidio of Monterey because that's the official name of the Army installation where DLI is located. 

When I began to study the JFK case and came across Rankin's comment that Oswald attended "the Monterey School of the Army," it jumped out at me because I knew from my own experience that 99% of the military people who are sent to DLI work in an intelligence field, and that no one goes there unless they receive orders to go there.

I'm saying 99% just to be safe. In fact, I never knew any military person at DLI who did not work in an intelligence field.

A friend, recruited by the agency (and non-military), was sent to MLI almost immediately upon signing up. She tells hilarious stories of how she landed Russian language by faking that her grandmother was Russian-born. (Fooling the agency must be so very satisfying.) She soon fell head over heals with a Navy guy and the first night they realized he was in the "Korean" program and their romance would soon be doomed, and it was. She was off to Europe or Latin America or both, and he was posted in a recon plane over North Korea. Twenty-five years later they reconnected and lived together until his untimely death from consequences of PTSD. Apparently waterboarding was part of the training for those guys flying over North Korea.

Question is, if Oswald was at MLI, why is there such a discrepancy in reports of his skills.  I thought immersion was part of the program and that you didn't leave without a decent level of proficiency.

Could that record be part of his backstory?

    

[Joe Bauer]

On 9/29/2022 at 9:28 AM, Michael Griffith said:

Wow! What a small world! My wife and I lived in Marina both times I attended DLI. Housing in Monterey was too expensive for us. Marina was the closest place that had halfway affordable housing. In fact, we lived in a nice HUD apartment complex both times we were there.

 

Michael, things have changed so much regards the DLI since you lived here.

The military pumped so much more money into the facility in the last few decades.

They have built beautiful dorms for their single students and made incredible infrastructure improvements. Including building a full sized football type soccer field with night lights. 

When I was a kid and young man you could drive right through the DLI grounds on two separate streets as a shortcut to get to and from Monterey and Pacific Grove which saved incredible time versus going all the way around on one always busy ocean side tourist street.

On 911 they closed those streets to the public and to this day 21 years later have never re-opened them. They've built 24 hour manned security gates at all entrances which didn't exist before 911. 

And the military quit the cheap housing program for their married couples with children attendees.

The 1950's built 2 bedroom one bath residential home next door to us houses a temporary duty military family. When they leave another one takes their place. The monthly rent? $4,500!

$50,000 a year!

Guess this is the "Beverly Hills" version of military subsidized housing.

We knew the previous military family living there. The wife ( she and her husband were both military ) told me the $50,000 rent expense was paid "above and beyond" their pay!

Money is no object with the military.

Hundreds of massive rent homes all over the Peninsula are military paid.

It helps keep the rents insanely high as other rental homeowners just charge the same. These rental home owners fight to find military renters. Their rents are guaranteed.

Thousands of Peninsula resident civilians over the years have strongly expressed their wishes for the moving of the DLI to perhaps cheaper land out on the massive yet wide open undeveloped old Fort Ord base.

To open up the previous traffic congestion freeing roadways, help lower the Military highest rent jacking up home rental rates and perhaps even freeing up more affordable housing for civilians. The facility could be turned over to our state college system and would make a beautiful new but small campus.

During the most heavy public demand for this DLI movement time, our Monterey City manager was a long time career former Army Colonel.

He was totally military favoring. He shut down any efforts to move the facility.

Also, huge military subsidized rent gold mine rental home owners came out in full force to shut down the move movement as well as hundreds of staff employees who didn't want to leave this beautiful facility and easy commute location to have to drive to the out-backs of ugly Fort Ord land 20 miles away.

From hanging around kids whose parents worked at the facility growing up and actually meeting their parents occasionally ( I never gave this any thought at the time ) you knew these kids and their parents came from their home countries and were brought here.  I sense now, that their parents often had positions in their home countries that may have involved circumstances of high military and/or political intrigue.

Things you just "don't talk about" to outsiders. 

But again, as kids and teenagers, such things were the last things on our minds versus girls and sports and just having fun.

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Kirk Gallaway]

Joe, as a visitor, I'm familiar with some of the places you're talking about. Have you ever been to the La Mesa Military Housing Complex off Farargut Rd.?  I happened to cruise up there one day and found that  housing complex. That's a pretty nice hidden little enclave!

A friend of mine wanted to move from the East coast to the Monterey area and I  inquired about it for her about a year ago, and they do rent , the smallest 1BDRM. I bath started at $2350 and the biggest were 3/2's as I recall up at $4500-4800! , You could be a civilian, but they had a waiting list of at least 6 months,  and a pretty thorough vetting process from what I remember. The cost was prohibitive for her.

[Joe Bauer]

14 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Joe, as a visitor, I'm familiar with some of the places you're talking about. Have you ever been to the La Mesa Military Housing Complex off Farargut Rd.?  I happened to cruise up there one day and found that  housing complex. That's a pretty nice hidden little enclave!

A friend of mine wanted to move from the East coast to the Monterey area and I  inquired about it for her about a year ago, and they do rent , the smallest 1BDRM. I bath started at $2350 and the biggest were 3/2's as I recall up at $4500-4800! , You could be a civilian, but they had a waiting list of at least 6 months,  and a pretty thorough vetting process from what I remember. The cost was prohibitive for her.

Yes, yes, and yes.

I know the Le Mesa housing site very well.

I was hired by the Navy as a civilian employee to finish the landscaping and then maintaining the grounds at their fairly large brand new Navy Lodge hotel there in 2,000.

I worked there over 1 year. $8 an hour part time...no benefits! One of the lowest paying jobs I have ever taken on. I was desperate for work at that time.

Right at that time the Navy was pumping tens of millions of dollars building those beautiful Spanish adobe two story homes there for their military families.

They built a huge beautiful community center and already had their own elementary school there as well.

You are absolutely right on regards the rent amounts you mention. One bedroom one bath apartments here for $2,300+ a month. $5,000 to move in?

2 and 3 bedroom apartments with 1 and 1/2 or two baths for over $3,000.

Two bedroom one bath homes from $ 3,800 to $4,000.

Larger homes from $4,500 to over $5,000.

We are in a rental home. Two bedroom, 1 bath with a downstairs bedroom and store room. 4 of us sharing the rent. Ours is a little cheaper because we have been here for 7 years when the rents were 25% cheaper.

Only residents here with children are military. Because as I said...the military pays their rent on top of their salaries.

Our general age is over 60 because these people inherited their homes or bought them 40 + years ago for 30% of what they are priced for now.

The Monterey Peninsula is a beautiful place to live if you win the lottery or inherit millions.

Many homes East of Monterey are just as high, but more than half are occupied by multiple families. Sometimes 3 or 4? 10 or more people? Sharing separate bedrooms and the communal bathrooms.

It's the only way they can afford the rent.

Many, many hundreds here have been forced to live in their cars. You see them in 24 hour open/store parking lots. Random street parking. Some rent driveways to park off the street at night so the police don't cite them.

90% of Americans don't know how crushing and effecting this insane almost criminal rent exploding madness is to working class people who don't own their homes. At least here in California.

 

[Leslie Sharp]

 

The question is, if Oswald was at Monterrey Language Institute, why is there such a discrepancy in reports of his skills.  I thought immersion was part of the program and that you didn't leave without a decent level of proficiency.

Could that record be part of his backstory?

[Joe Bauer]

Yes, Total immersion.

Back in the 1990's we befriended a military family here. The wife was the student.

There was a period of time where she had to stay on the DLI campus for 12 to 16 weeks straight to have 24/7 immersion where all she could speak and converse was Spanish.

Couldn't even live with her family off base that entire time.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Ron Bulman]

When did Oswald ever have 3-4 months for immersion, in Spanish?  More time for more complicated Russian?

I think Dr. Norwood is right.  He learned it in his young youth, in eastern Europe as his local language.

[Bob Ness]

I'm going to post this reply of mine to David Lipton I put in his thread on on Where LHO learned Russian with a Polish accent. It may be a point for a discussion here or maybe not.

David have you looked into the possibility of LHO being trained at a localized base rather than Monterrey or privately? My grandfather was the CO of Skaggs Island, as was Louis Tordella (my GF worked with him throughout his career) and they almost certainly had language training in house (Skaggs was a self-contained base abt 450 miles North) for comm interception and direction finding during the Cold War. I believe Subic Bay is another possibility - I think my GF built the comm center there and would probably have language schools, especially during the beginning of the Cold War. Oswald's DD214 (I don't know if anything else is available) wouldn't have much as far as I know about any kind of special deployments, especially sensitive ones.

  Quote

Louis W. Tordella - Wikipedia

Skaggs Island Naval Communication Station - Wikipedia

NAVSECGRU Stations past and present (navycthistory.com)

Most of this stuff would come under the umbrella of ONI rather than regular Navy which would cloak any information about the effort and add layers of fog. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Bob Ness

[Michael Griffith]

On 9/30/2022 at 8:55 PM, Leslie Sharp said:

Question is, if Oswald was at MLI, why is there such a discrepancy in reports of his skills.  I thought immersion was part of the program and that you didn't leave without a decent level of proficiency.

Could that record be part of his backstory?    

DLI was not an immersion program. You went to class with native instructors 6-7 hours per day, but then you went back to your barracks and spoke English with everyone else. Your commander and your platoon sergeant were not linguists and spoke only English. All of the support staff with whom you dealt at DLI--the admin and finance staff--were not linguists and were English speakers. DLI was not like Middlebury, which is a true immersion program.

Oswald's scores on the Russian language test recorded in his military records indicate that at that point--February 1959--he had an intermediate-level proficiency in Russian, a solid achievement. I seriously, seriously doubt that he could have achieved that level of proficiency merely by self-study. 

When I went to DLI, the average test scores for those who went through the one-year Russian course were about the same as, or not hugely better than, Oswald's scores. Russian is ranked by the military as a Category IV language, which means it is regarded as one of the hardest languages to learn.  

The fact that Oswald even took the Russian language proficiency test indicates to me that he was in intelligence. When I was in the military, only personnel whose foreign language was required for the MOS (military occupational specialty) were given the language proficiency test in their foreign language, and I never knew of any MOS that required a foreign language that was not in the intelligence field.

[Ron Ege]

2 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

DLI was not an immersion program. You went to class with native instructors 6-7 hours per day, but then you went back to your barracks and spoke English with everyone else. Your commander and your platoon sergeant were not linguists and spoke only English. All of the support staff with whom you dealt at DLI--the admin and finance staff--were not linguists and were English speakers. DLI was not like Middlebury, which is a true immersion program.

Oswald's scores on the Russian language test recorded in his military records indicate that at that point--February 1959--he had an intermediate-level proficiency in Russian, a solid achievement. I seriously, seriously doubt that he could have achieved that level of proficiency merely by self-study. 

When I went to DLI, the average test scores for those who went through the one-year Russian course were about the same as, or not hugely better than, Oswald's scores. Russian is ranked by the military as a Category IV language, which means it is regarded as one of the hardest languages to learn.  

The fact that Oswald even took the Russian language proficiency test indicates to me that he was in intelligence. When I was in the military, only personnel whose foreign language was required for the MOS (military occupational specialty) were given the language proficiency test in their foreign language, and I never knew of any MOS that required a foreign language that was not in the intelligence field.

Michael, thanks.

My experience, U. S. Air Force (USAF) Security Service, '62-'63, parallels yours.  I worked alongside DLI graduates.  By definition, their assigned Air Force Specialty Code (AFSC) requiring a foreign language most definitely dictated an intelligence assignment.

Along with the specific needs of the USAF, for any enlistee their enlistment aptitude tests' results determined what range of AFSCs they'd qualify for, upon active-duty entry.

Certain lengthy technical assignments would only be made after the potential student passed yet another very specific, to a specific AFSC, aptitude test.  Before making a costly investment sending a troop to a lengthy technical school, the USAF wanted to be fairly certain that he/she would be successful there.

Assignment to the DLI was one of those schools, and the score was made part of the individual's record.

I worked with Army, Navy, and Marine troops who had the equivalent career field code (MOS, NEC, AFSC) that I did, and their scores were in their records.

Odd, Oswald's proficiency test result is on record - but no score for an MOS specific aptitude test.

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael Griffith]

On 10/5/2022 at 11:08 AM, Ron Ege said:

Michael, thanks.

My experience, U. S. Air Force (USAF) Security Service, '62-'63, parallels yours.  I worked alongside DLI graduates.  By definition, their assigned Air Force Specialty Code (AFSC) requiring a foreign language most definitely dictated an intelligence assignment.

Along with the specific needs of the USAF, for any enlistee their enlistment aptitude tests' results determined what range of AFSCs they'd qualify for, upon active-duty entry.

Certain lengthy technical assignments would only be made after the potential student passed yet another very specific, to a specific AFSC, aptitude test.  Before making a costly investment sending a troop to a lengthy technical school, the USAF wanted to be fairly certain that he/she would be successful there.

Assignment to the DLI was one of those schools, and the score was made part of the individual's record.

I worked with Army, Navy, and Marine troops who had the equivalent career field code (MOS, NEC, AFSC) that I did, and their scores were in their records.

Odd, Oswald's proficiency test result is on record - but no score for an MOS specific aptitude test.

Ron, 

The foreign language aptitude test (called DLAB, short for Defense Language Aptitude Battery) may not have been given to Oswald when he enlisted. Usually, recruiters only arrange for recruits to take that test if they are going into a field that requires learning a foreign language. Since Oswald signed up for an MOS that did not require a foreign language, he would not have needed to take the aptitude test.

I had to take the aptitude test when I was recruited because I was going into the signals intelligence field and would have to go to DLI as part of my technical training. If I had not passed the test, I would not have been eligible to go to DLI and would have had to choose a different MOS.

[Michael Griffith]

On 10/3/2022 at 8:47 PM, Joe Bauer said:

Yes, Total immersion.

Back in the 1990's we befriended a military family here. The wife was the student.

There was a period of time where she had to stay on the DLI campus for 12 to 16 weeks straight to have 24/7 immersion where all she could speak and converse was Spanish.

Couldn't even live with her family off base that entire time.

DLI did not start a semi-immersion program until the 1990s, and even then it's only about one-fourth of the course. I had friends who did the mini-immersion course as part of their one-year course, but no such institute-wide program existed at DLI before the 1990s.

When I went to DLI the second time, 1986 to 1987, one or two of the bigger language departments were just starting an experimental two-week immersion stint where students would stay in a building for two weeks with their instructors and could only speak their target language. I remember my class talking about how we would like to do that, but our instructor said that our language department (Hebrew) was not ready to do something like that.

When I went to DLI the first time, 1982-1983, there was no immersion training of any kind. 

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Michael Griffith

[Ron Ege]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:38 PM, Michael Griffith said:

Ron, 

The foreign language aptitude test (called DLAB, short for Defense Language Aptitude Battery) may not have been given to Oswald when he enlisted. Usually, recruiters only arrange for recruits to take that test if they are going into a field that requires learning a foreign language. Since Oswald signed up for an MOS that did not require a foreign language, he would not have needed to take the aptitude test.

I had to take the aptitude test when I was recruited because I was going into the signals intelligence field and would have to go to DLI as part of my technical training. If I had not passed the test, I would not have been eligible to go to DLI and would have had to choose a different MOS.

Michael,

I do understand.

Regarding a specialized aptitude test - mine was administered about half-way through basic training, having only signed up for the "Administrative"
portion of the four parts Air Force initial aptitude test, which also included the categories entitled - "General", "Mechanical", and "Electronics".  Something in my score tipped them off the I'd make a pretty good Morse Intercept Operator - hence my eventual assignment to the USAF Security Service.

Part of my post - was - implying that LHO's record did not indicate a specialized aptitude test for score for language - because such would've been evidence that in addition to his official MOS, at some point, he had also undergone language training for his eventual intelligence role. 

Of course, I can't prove he did - but I don't believe it to have been impossible - given what appears to be unexplained absences during his active-duty time - that he could have received some sort of intense "undercover" language training.

And yes, I'm aware of the discussion on how good his Russia may or may not have been.  I guess I'm leaning on the - "it was somewhat too good to have been learned by the 'Berlitz method'" side of the equation.

[Michael Griffith]

23 hours ago, Ron Ege said:

Michael,

I do understand.

Regarding a specialized aptitude test - mine was administered about half-way through basic training, having only signed up for the "Administrative"
portion of the four parts Air Force initial aptitude test, which also included the categories entitled - "General", "Mechanical", and "Electronics".  Something in my score tipped them off the I'd make a pretty good Morse Intercept Operator - hence my eventual assignment to the USAF Security Service.

Part of my post - was - implying that LHO's record did not indicate a specialized aptitude test for score for language - because such would've been evidence that in addition to his official MOS, at some point, he had also undergone language training for his eventual intelligence role. 

Of course, I can't prove he did - but I don't believe it to have been impossible - given what appears to be unexplained absences during his active-duty time - that he could have received some sort of intense "undercover" language training.

And yes, I'm aware of the discussion on how good his Russia may or may not have been.  I guess I'm leaning on the - "it was somewhat too good to have been learned by the 'Berlitz method'" side of the equation.

Yes, in my view, Oswald's language test scores in Russian were far too good for someone who was merely self-taught in the space of a year or so. I mean, it's always possible that he could have gotten lucky and guessed that many correct answers, but it's extremely unlikely. I took the Arabic and Hebrew versions of the language test many times, and I would bet a huge chunk of money that nobody could guess that many correct answers.