Oswald's Shirt

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Pat I just reread all 88 pages of your 4b on "Threads of Evidence" (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence), simply stunning. The match of the tuft of fibers on the rifle with fibers from C150, the brown shirt on Oswald at his arrest (and not a match with any other Oswald shirt), and the testimony of Stombaugh that the fibers were recent, is too much coincidence: either Oswald fired the rifle while wearing C150 or it was planted on the rifle, one or the other. What you bring out is devastating that Oswald was not wearing C150 that morning whether on the sixth floor or anywhere else in the TSBD. Oswald said he had worn a red shirt to work that morning, said he changed his shirt at the rooming house (according to Fritz's handwritten notes, and Thomas Kelley's notes), and you show a color photo of C151, a maroon (red) shirt found at his rooming house exactly where Oswald said he had put the red shirt he had worn to work that day--and it is red. Is it true that it took until your own efforts as late as 2016 before any color photo of C151 became publicly known? If so, that is just astonishing--because visually one can see that it is just obvious that was the red shirt Oswald said he had worn that morning. C150 is brown not red, and C151 is red--reddish or maroon--not brown. C151 was the shirt Oswald wore to work that morning from Irving. But as the testimony from the TSBD witnesses indicate, Oswald would have taken off his shirt upon arrival to work, hung it in the "domino room" on the first floor, and worked in a white T-shirt only, just as on other days, and as seen that day. He did not have any shirt on at 12:30 pm except a white T-shirt. Therefore Oswald could not have had a tuft of fibers from C150--which at that moment was not being worn by anyone, at the rooming house on Beckley--caught on the metal plate at the butt of the rifle while firing the rifle at 12:30. The white T-shirt only being worn by Oswald at the time of the assassination is as solid as any multiple witness testimonies can be--Mrs. Reid, Shelley, Truly, Jarman. Oswald wore C151 to work, took it off and it was in the first floor domino room while Oswald worked in his white T-shirt, seen ca. 12:32 pm in his white T-shirt by Mrs. Reid on the 2nd floor 1-2 minutes after the assassination, then Oswald returned to the first floor, put on his shirt, C151, the red shirt, and left the TSBD wearing that shirt, C151, which he changed along with his pants at the rooming house on Beckley in Oak Cliff at about 1 pm, changing into C150 the brown shirt, the shirt which the FBI said showed a match of fibers to the tuft caught on the rifle found at the TSBD.

You bring out compelling argument that never-reported tests were done on the shirts--C150 and C151--for gunshot residue. Why not reported or disclosed? Your proposed explanation makes sense: that like the cheek paraffin test, the shirt gunshot residue tests may have indicated Oswald had not fired a rifle that day while wearing C150. That finding would have impeached what had from about day two become central to the narrative, the fiber match of C150 to the rifle, and if C150 was then excluded by a means of testing as having gunshot residue on it, that would not only have looked exculpatory for Oswald but even beyond that would have inevitably looked to the world (in this case arguably accurately) like the fiber match from C150 may have been planted on the rifle, part of what in the UK is called "stitching up" a suspect with some evidence by law enforcement in order to assist in getting a conviction. Then you bring out the stunning fact of the FBI agents showing only the brown shirt C150, and not C151 the red shirt Oswald said he had worn to work that morning--to the TSBD witnesses to identify (and the rejections of identification of C150 from those witnesses). 

You bring out the testimony of witnesses who saw a man with a rifle on the sixth floor of the TSBD having seen that man in a light-colored shirt, not in agreement with the brown shirt C150 whose tuft of fiber the FBI reported finding on the rifle consistent with a wearer of C150 firing that rifle that day. 

Especially interesting is your putting together (at p. 17 of 88 on my printout of your 4b; section titled "Was Something Up Their Sleeve?") the document about the Secret Service in Dec 1963 receiving Oswald clothing including that red shirt (C161) from DPD from which the Secret Service intended to forward to "the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Lab"--and your connection of that (of which nothing further is known from documents on the Mary Ferrell site?) with a September 1966 forensics conference in which three scientists from the Laboratory of the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division of the IRS reported "test firings were made with foreign rifles, and paraffin lifts of hair and shoulders were examined for the presence of antimony and barium ... this work indicates there is a distinct possibility that the method can be applied to the detection of rifle firings"--and your suggestion that that 1966 conference report may be related to never-published, never-reported, testing done by that lab on Oswald clothing for gunshot residue from the JFK assassination Mannlicher-Carcano. After restudying your 4b, I do not think that tuft of fibers from C150 (in agreement with C150, to be technical) of recent origin on Oswald's rifle was caused by handling of that rifle by Oswald prior to Nov 22, 1963. And a lot of evidence pretty much establishes "beyond reasonable question" that Oswald was not wearing C150 at the time of the assassination, which raises the question of how that tuft of fibers came to be on the rifle.

Thanks, Greg. I've been told that my chapters are incomprehensible, but your comprehension appears to be right on the money. I've made several attempts at editing my chapters down to the nitty gritty for a book, but that skill is apparently beyond me, and Gil deserves credit for summarizing the evidence for public consumption.

FWIW, There was a European scientist who summarized my research on the paraffin casts of Oswald's cheek for wikipedia, but wikipedia refused to publish it because they couldn't verify it in any published work. They contacted me and asked if any reputable writer such as Bugliosi had made reference to my work. I told them "no" but that all the documents I discussed were available at the Hood Library in Maryland. I explained that Weisberg had received them as part of a FOIA request, and that no one until myself had sought them out for study. The editor or whatever then pounced and wrote something like "So you admit this is your own conclusions, unsupported by Bugliosi or any other reliable source?" To which I wrote something like "Of course, like I said, I realized that no one had studied the NAA documents in the Weisberg Archives, and sought them out, and wrote an article about what I discovered." To which he responded, "Thanks" and killed the article. It made me a little crazy at the time, because wikipedia's supposed reason for existence is to move us past the publishing house monopoly on accepted truth world we grew up in, and into a world where the internet can be a valid source for information. And here they were rejecting my research because it hadn't received a thumbs up from a major publisher. Arggh!

[George Govus]

That's some catch, that Catch-22.

[Stu Wexler]

7 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

Pat I just reread all 88 pages of your 4b on "Threads of Evidence" (https://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4b-threads-of-evidence), simply stunning. The match of the tuft of fibers on the rifle with fibers from C150, the brown shirt on Oswald at his arrest (and not a match with any other Oswald shirt), and the testimony of Stombaugh that the fibers were recent, is too much coincidence: either Oswald fired the rifle while wearing C150 or it was planted on the rifle, one or the other. What you bring out is devastating that Oswald was not wearing C150 that morning whether on the sixth floor or anywhere else in the TSBD. Oswald said he had worn a red shirt to work that morning, said he changed his shirt at the rooming house (according to Fritz's handwritten notes, and Thomas Kelley's notes), and you show a color photo of C151, a maroon (red) shirt found at his rooming house exactly where Oswald said he had put the red shirt he had worn to work that day--and it is red. Is it true that it took until your own efforts as late as 2016 before any color photo of C151 became publicly known? If so, that is just astonishing--because visually one can see that it is just obvious that was the red shirt Oswald said he had worn that morning. C150 is brown not red, and C151 is red--reddish or maroon--not brown. C151 was the shirt Oswald wore to work that morning from Irving. But as the testimony from the TSBD witnesses indicate, Oswald would have taken off his shirt upon arrival to work, hung it in the "domino room" on the first floor, and worked in a white T-shirt only, just as on other days, and as seen that day. He did not have any shirt on at 12:30 pm except a white T-shirt. Therefore Oswald could not have had a tuft of fibers from C150--which at that moment was not being worn by anyone, at the rooming house on Beckley--caught on the metal plate at the butt of the rifle while firing the rifle at 12:30. The white T-shirt only being worn by Oswald at the time of the assassination is as solid as any multiple witness testimonies can be--Mrs. Reid, Shelley, Truly, Jarman. Oswald wore C151 to work, took it off and it was in the first floor domino room while Oswald worked in his white T-shirt, seen ca. 12:32 pm in his white T-shirt by Mrs. Reid on the 2nd floor 1-2 minutes after the assassination, then Oswald returned to the first floor, put on his shirt, C151, the red shirt, and left the TSBD wearing that shirt, C151, which he changed along with his pants at the rooming house on Beckley in Oak Cliff at about 1 pm, changing into C150 the brown shirt, the shirt which the FBI said showed a match of fibers to the tuft caught on the rifle found at the TSBD.

You bring out compelling argument that never-reported tests were done on the shirts--C150 and C151--for gunshot residue. Why not reported or disclosed? Your proposed explanation makes sense: that like the cheek paraffin test, the shirt gunshot residue tests may have indicated Oswald had not fired a rifle that day while wearing C150. That finding would have impeached what had from about day two become central to the narrative, the fiber match of C150 to the rifle, and if C150 was then excluded by a means of testing as having gunshot residue on it, that would not only have looked exculpatory for Oswald but even beyond that would have inevitably looked to the world (in this case arguably accurately) like the fiber match from C150 may have been planted on the rifle, part of what in the UK is called "stitching up" a suspect with some evidence by law enforcement in order to assist in getting a conviction. Then you bring out the stunning fact of the FBI agents showing only the brown shirt C150, and not C151 the red shirt Oswald said he had worn to work that morning--to the TSBD witnesses to identify (and the rejections of identification of C150 from those witnesses). 

You bring out the testimony of witnesses who saw a man with a rifle on the sixth floor of the TSBD having seen that man in a light-colored shirt, not in agreement with the brown shirt C150 whose tuft of fiber the FBI reported finding on the rifle consistent with a wearer of C150 firing that rifle that day. 

Especially interesting is your putting together (at p. 17 of 88 on my printout of your 4b; section titled "Was Something Up Their Sleeve?") the document about the Secret Service in Dec 1963 receiving Oswald clothing including that red shirt (C161) from DPD from which the Secret Service intended to forward to "the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Lab"--and your connection of that (of which nothing further is known from documents on the Mary Ferrell site?) with a September 1966 forensics conference in which three scientists from the Laboratory of the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division of the IRS reported "test firings were made with foreign rifles, and paraffin lifts of hair and shoulders were examined for the presence of antimony and barium ... this work indicates there is a distinct possibility that the method can be applied to the detection of rifle firings"--and your suggestion that that 1966 conference report may be related to never-published, never-reported, testing done by that lab on Oswald clothing for gunshot residue from the JFK assassination Mannlicher-Carcano. After restudying your 4b, I do not think that tuft of fibers from C150 (in agreement with C150, to be technical) of recent origin on Oswald's rifle was caused by handling of that rifle by Oswald prior to Nov 22, 1963. And a lot of evidence pretty much establishes "beyond reasonable question" that Oswald was not wearing C150 at the time of the assassination, which raises the question of how that tuft of fibers came to be on the rifle.

 

I believe Walt Brown has argued that there was cross-contamination of fibers to various items based on how they were stored and shipped from Dallas to DC. Eg it would not be planting but it also would not support Oz's guilt.

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Stu Wexler said:

 

I believe Walt Brown has argued that there was cross-contamination of fibers to various items based on how they were stored and shipped from Dallas to DC. Eg it would not be planting but it also would not support Oz's guilt.

Our friend John Hunt found an FBI crime lab photo showing the paper bag laying on top of the blanket. I believe that is the possible cross-contamination to which you refer. The fibers wrapped around the butt-plate is a different story. It could not have occurred by mere contact, which is why the FBI's fiber expert Stombaugh mused that it was wrapped around the butt=plate via Lt. Day's brushing off fingerprint powder. The whole scenario is ludicrous, and is almost certainly a cover for what Stombaugh really suspected--that the fibers were planted to implicate Oswald (at a time, I might add, that the DPD failed to realize Oswald had changed shirts).

[Andrej Stancak]

14 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

I know the Prayer Man identification is highly controversial (and do not wish for Gil's topic to go in that direction) but to the limited extent I have looked at that question it seems to me that is in the end most likely Sarah Stanton, primarily due to the testimony of Wesley Frazier as well as the white T-shirt Oswald was wearing according to the testimony of Mrs. Reid 1-2 minutes after the assassination.

Greg:

did you actually see the photograph of Mrs. Sarah Stanton? She was a huge lady, weighing 300+ pounds, very obese, and she had thick, blonde hair. While you are entitled to any opinion regarding Prayer Man's identity, you would need to expain why Prayer Man had dark hair, not the blonde, thick hair of Mrs. Stanton. I also do not which to hijack this thread, so you do not need to answer. There is a thread on Prayer Man (quoted in my earlier post in this thread), in case you would like to convince the Forum that Stanton was Prayer Man.

[Pete Mellor]

What a great thread this is.  Kudos to Gil, Greg and Pat for this great work.

It's why I lurk on this forum on almost a daily basis.

[Greg Doudna]

14 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Greg:

did you actually see the photograph of Mrs. Sarah Stanton? She was a huge lady, weighing 300+ pounds, very obese, and she had thick, blonde hair. While you are entitled to any opinion regarding Prayer Man's identity, you would need to expain why Prayer Man had dark hair, not the blonde, thick hair of Mrs. Stanton. I also do not which to hijack this thread, so you do not need to answer. There is a thread on Prayer Man (quoted in my earlier post in this thread), in case you would like to convince the Forum that Stanton was Prayer Man.

Andrej, I read the thread and I admit that hairline, if that is signal not static, looks male pattern not a woman's. You could be right its Oswald. Why I thought it might be Sarah Stanton is because it is certain she was in that group on the stairs, Wesley Frazier says was standing very close by him, and where else is she then, plus an impression that Prayer Man could look obese, however the hairline argues it is a man, so I don't know. I was intrigued by your work on comparing dark patches on C151 and the Prayer Man garment. The object held at the end of PM's right hand looks to me like it could be a ceramic cup of coffee, with the left hand cupping it for warmth, but that is just a guess. If the object is a camera that would seem to weigh against an Oswald identity given that there is no known camera with Oswald at the TSBD. The problem with moving from argument from plausibility to certainty on an Oswald identification of Prayer Man seems above all to be the poor resolution of the photo. I have just been burned myself in confusing static with signal in a photo on another matter, with what I thought was signal (human writing on an artifact, where I made many hand drawings of what looked to be human-made marks), which turned out to be a mixture of signal and static and mistaken, made clear from a vastly superior photo. In addition to the difficulties with the quality of the Prayer Man photos (I respect your efforts in trying to deal with that), there is also the absence of witnesses putting Oswald on those steps (though I thought you made decent responses on that point in your Jan 18, 2021, and March 31, 2021 postings on page 17 of that thread). What makes the Oswald identity possible is the inability to positively identify the figure as someone else (and there are not too many candidates internal to TSBD left unaccounted for to choose from), and Oswald's testimony via the arrest interrogation reports and other witnesses which put him in proximity even if not confirmed directly on those steps. So for me at this point it is just uncertain, I don't know.

[Gil Jesus]

Stombaugh said that there was fingerprint powder "down and in through the crevice", a physical impossibility if the fibers had been brushed into the crevice as he claimed. ( 4 H 83 )

Let me give you an example:

Imagine that your hand is the fiber, a table is the crevice and a paint roller with paint is the powder.

If you laid your hand flat on a table and took a paint roller and rolled paint over it, you'd have paint on the table and paint on the top of your hand, but when you lifted your hand off the table, THERE'D BE NO PAINT IN THE AREA UNDER IT.

If Lt. Day had brushed these fibers into the crevice, there shouldn't be powder UNDER them. And if there WAS powder under them, then that means that the fibers were on TOP of the powder and got on the rifle AFTER it had been dusted for fingerprints.

Like the paint over the hand, you could have powder in the crevice and on the fibers but not through the whole crevice, including under the fibers.

If there was powder UNDER the fibers, this is very significant.

Another thing I find interesting is that Stombaugh claimed that the fibers he found on the rifle had fingerprint powder on them and he had to clean them off.  ( 4 H 84 )

But his colleague, fingerprint expert Sebastian Latona testified that the reason why they didn't use fingerprint powder on cloth was because cloth was absorbent, would absorb the oils left by the fingers and the powder would not adhere to it. ( 4 H 4 )

Cloth is made of of fibers, so how could the powder adhere to a fiber but not a group of them, ie. cloth ?

Stombaugh also testified that the fibers he found "appeared to be fairly fresh". ( 4 H 82 )

So it's very possible that these fibers could have been planted after the dusting for prints and leave no evidence of powder on the shirt.

But you'd have to be knowledgeable enough to know that. The FBI was.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Gil Jesus