Is there or is there not a Minox camera in this DPD evidence photo?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

John Butler writes:

Quote

You say you are not a LNer, yet almost all of the things that you write serve that paradigm.  Here's an example:  You say the Zapruder film is true blue and unaltered, and no one has proven it to be so in 30 years.  You say this with much force, but little evidence to back those statements up.

Why should one have to believe that the Zapruder film is a fake in order to question the lone-nut idea?

The film is probably the most important single item of physical evidence that contradicts the lone-nut idea. Quite apart from its depiction of JFK's 'back and to the left' head snap, the Zapruder film is the only evidence we have for the speed of the car during the entirety of the shooting, and thus for the amount of time available for a hypothetical lone gunman to aim and fire the sixth-floor rifle three times. 

Couple that to the amount of time that would actually have been needed to aim and fire three shots from that rifle, and it's clear that the shooting would have required more than one gunman.

Discard the Zapruder film, and you remove that limitation. A lone-gunman apologist could simply declare that one gunman would have had enough time to aim and fire three shots, and there would be no way to refute that claim. 

That's what makes the whole 'Zapruder film is a fake' business look crazy. If the Zapruder film is genuine, it provides very strong evidence against the lone-gunman idea.

But John seems to be under the impression that the film actually supports the lone-gunman idea. Is that what he thinks? If so, could John explain what it is about the Zapruder film that he thinks supports the lone-gunman idea?

I'm genuinely curious about why people believe these things. If you are predisposed to question the Warren Commission's interpretation, why would you even want to discard the Zapruder film?

[John Butler]

7 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

But John seems to be under the impression that the film actually supports the lone-gunman idea.

That is really clever to reverse the argument.  I believe the Zap film was altered to support the lone gunman theory.  I believe the film is a fake.  I believe you cannot believe anything you see after frame Z 133 and some things before that frame.

I've asked questions, Jeremy.  How about answering them?   If you only have clever rhetoric to reply with then don't waste your time replying.

Edited April 20, 2022 by John Butler

[Paul Brancato]

Fascinating story and still a mystery.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

John Butler writes:

Quote

I believe the Zap film was altered to support the lone gunman theory.

In that case, you should be able to explain to us exactly how the film supports the lone-gunman theory.

Which parts of the film support the lone-gunman theory?

Which parts of the film contradict the theory that more than one gunman was involved?

[Pete Mellor]

On 4/20/2022 at 4:28 AM, John Butler said:

Who was making donuts and cakes in 1960?  What was Oswald doing with this pay stub?  Harvey's in Russia.  Lee is who knows where?  Or, is the reverse?

What's Harvey doing with this pay stub.  Is it a bona fide for some contact?  What?  Harvey was one strange character.

It is just too weird!!!!

 

I can only think of Judyth Vary Bakeries.

[John Butler]

7 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

I can only think of Judyth Vary Bakeries.

🤪

[David Josephs]

On 4/11/2022 at 4:35 PM, Sean Coleman said:

Wasn’t an associated minox examined and found to be full of ‘cement?’ also had a serial no. not available to the public at that time? 

Hi Sean...

The story of the cement filled Minox comes from my friend John Armstrong who frequented the archives for many years.  He was actually one of the last researchers to be allowed to physically see and touch much of the evidence.  In any case He told me a few stories about the evidence he came across...  

One being that this was indeed cemented shut and was the Minox everyone denies existed.
Two was the microfilm canister supposedly containing the Klein's order for the rifle...  the canister was empty.

Here is a bit more about the Minox..  I apologize if I am repeating other info already posted, I did not read the entire thread as I've been thru this countless times over the years.

And yes, the seriel number for this camera belonged to a series not available to the public.. well remembered Sean!

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by David Josephs

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

In that case, you should be able to explain to us exactly how the film supports the lone-gunman theory.

You should ask that question of the FBI, other government agencies, and the Warren Commission.  They made a very big deal of that.

The Zapruder Gap is where I and about 90 witnesses believe the assassination took place.  The imagery was moved to have Oswald on the 6th floor shooting.  

Edited April 21, 2022 by John Butler

[David Josephs]

20 hours ago, John Butler said:

That is really clever to reverse the argument.  I believe the Zap film was altered to support the lone gunman theory.  I believe the film is a fake.  I believe you cannot believe anything you see after frame Z 133 and some things before that frame.

I've asked questions, Jeremy.  How about answering them?   If you only have clever rhetoric to reply with then don't waste your time replying.

John...  WARNING WARNING RABBIT HOLE... COINTELPRO tactics at work...  AVOID Confrontation at all costs

Miss ya John...  but don't miss the terrible lack of vision or comprehension for which a select few here always can be counted upon.   As an older and wiser man, those tactics just don't hold water anymore...

Hope you and yours are well... DJ

 

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

[David Josephs]

Besides, isn't this thread about the Minox taken from Oswald and nothing to do with Zapruder or the SBT?

So let's not get this all muddled up with silly things like facts.

#375 - last on the page starts: "One Minox Camera"

[John Butler]

David,

Glad to see your back and commenting.

So, this is the actual Minox recovered by Ruth Paine and given to the FBI?  Could be a different camera from the camera found in Oswald's seabag.  That's questionable, but reasonable. 

I have Weberman's book.  He shows the same Minox.  One he claimed (I am not certain of this because of the way he stated it) that he had film developed from it.  He did have the National Archives develop Minox film that Lee Oswald had from the Philippines.  From what I am reading I doubt it was film from the camera, but Minox film cannisters or boxes.

It appears to be the same camera.  I wonder who was there first, Alan or John?  Do you know?

If the serial number on the case matches that of the police report then it is the same camera.  It appears there is a match in numbers.

Wonder who filled it with cement?  The story goes that Michael Paine dropped it in the ocean and then cleaned it with kerosene or gas or something like that.  There is no mention of filling it with cement.  

"If the serial number on the case matches that of the police report then it is the same camera.  It appears there is a match in numbers."  How firm is this?

 

  

 

[John Butler]

13 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

John...  WARNING WARNING RABBIT HOLE... COINTELPRO tactics at work...  AVOID Confrontation at all costs

Miss ya John...  but don't miss the terrible lack of vision or comprehension for which a select few here always can be counted upon.   As an older and wiser man, those tactics just don't hold water anymore...

Hope you and yours are well... DJ

David,

Thanks for this.  All is well around the Butler household.  Hope the same for you and yours.  Certainly COINTELPRO tactics.  I don't think certain folks have missed any of those in their work.  I got burned due to over emotionality on certain folks replies.  Usually, I do avoid this stuff.  But, lately I have been nit picking. 

As far as their vision or comprehension, it is agenda driven.  I can't believe anyone defends the LN position after 58 years of exposure by very competent researchers.  John Armstrong, David Josephs, and Jim Hargrove is an awesome trio with the correct view on how to look at the assassination.   

[John Butler]

Speaking of Paines/Oswalds Minox camera, one might notice the below section of the inventory report:

Foreign coins in a film bag?  Japanese, Korean, or Chinese.  It would be interesting to know.

But, this introduces the idea that Paine may have used Kodak products to film his Army adventures and the Paines trip to Europe.  There are Oswald and Paine pictures mixed together and difficult to separate.  That was the intention of the FBI and the Paines.  Otherwise, why would Ruth give precious photos of Michael and hers to the Dallas Police?

[Jim Hargrove]

[John Butler]

35 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

That is one of the things that has always bothered me.  Oswald was a camera buff.  Why is there no photos from New Orleans.  It would be nice to see Judith and Lee together.  Sorry, Harvey or maybe both?

Golz sums up in a short and easily understood manner.