Is there or is there not a Minox camera in this DPD evidence photo?

[Greg Doudna]

14 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Exposures made from one of the cameras were also developed and appear to have been taken in Asia, and, according to researcher A.J. Weberman (who filed the Freedom of Information Act to have the photos released), one of the photos shows Oswald holding an M16 rifle. 

Greg, the above quote I took from https://debunked.wordpress.com/the-possessions-of-lee-harvey-oswald-photographic-equipment/  I assume Weberman is referring to the photograph that Denny has posted above.???  I'm confused! (Again)  If you are correct that Oswald did not have any Minox camera, & the light meter belonged to Michael Paine, then where did Weberman's Oswald pic. originate from, and what to make of Rose & Stovall & Alexander's statements of a film in a Minox?

Pete I have Weberman's book and checked on this. I finally figured out that Weberman's book consists of genuine photos from Michael Paine's Minox camera from his Korea military service and time in Asia that Weberman got through FOIA--these were the photos developed from film taken by DPD that first weekend from the Paine garage--combined with some absolute horses--t commentary from Gerry Hemming. Long story short, the book is filled with some bogus claims of Gerry Hemming spinning out explanations of the photos that are Hemming tall stories, whoppers of stories, just making the stuff up unbelievable stories about those photos. The photo Denny posted, the so-called Oswald photo with a rifle in a military barracks, is in the Weberman book, one of the photos, and my conclusion there is that is not Oswald because it cannot be. These were Michael Paine photos. (Weberman-Hemming wrongly call them photos taken by Oswald.) The guy looks vaguely like a younger Oswald might but its not a decisive match to Oswald. Obviously there was no occasion for Oswald to appear in a Michael Paine military barracks photo. That photo is therefore probably some unidentified man in Michael Paine's unit and the so-called "Oswald photo" isn't. 

[Greg Doudna]

12 hours ago, Max Good said:

I've spent some time trying to figure this out.  The whole story is so convoluted that I decided not to include it my film.  There doesn't appear to be a Minox camera in this photo, but if you zoom in close you will notice that the Minox camera case could be sitting on top of the camera.  You can see the chain coming out of a hole.  From other photos online, it appears the chain attaches directly to the camera and runs through a hole in the case.

Even if there is no Minox camera in the photo, it doesn't prove one wasn't taken into evidence by Gus Rose.

Attached is a Dallas Morning News article from 1978 about the Minox and photos from it.

Even if the camera was Michael's, isn't it still suspicious?

 

Max G.-- on that chain or lanyard, I read elsewhere, cannot find the article that explained that, but it does not mean a camera is connected to it. As you can see in both of the photos you show, the lanyards in both cases come out of the case, then optionally attach to the camera at the other end. In the evidence photo is only the camera case and the lanyard coming out of it--just as in the two examples showing lanyards in the photos you show. But there is no camera connected to the lanyard. The point being that the existence of the lanyard itself does not mean or imply there must be a camera there. 

On the suggestion that the camera could be underneath the camera case (since it is not inside the camera case), I read someone propose that but I must say, I do not see that as possible visually. It would in any case not be a normal or very good way to have an evidence photo, in which one of the important items was covered up by being under another. That is not how the evidence is arrayed on any of the other items. But never mind that, it is excluded because the camera case is directly on the surface of the table. That "whitish" spot just below the camera case is not vertical camera metal but rather the coloring of the tabletop. And as noted, the lanyard attached to the camera case is not evidence that a camera is there.

On suspicious, I don't know, the Minox cameras as I understand were mixed commercial and spy/military use, so in itself falls short of indicating someone is a spy. Weighing in favor of the non-spy interpretation in Michael Paine's Minox case would seem to be (a) Michael said he bought it in a retail store, not received as military issue; (b) all the developed photos from Michael's Minox cartridges--the ones obtained by Weberman through the FOIA--are basically normal photography with no documents or obvious spy photos; and (c) Michael told of the camera having been dropped into some water and sand a few years earlier while on vacation in New England--that does not sound like it was being used for spycraft on that occasion.

[James DiEugenio]

This is just a recycling of what GD went through with me many months, maybe years ago.

He is an inveterate protector of the Paines, at any cost no matter what the topic.  

No one can discuss this issue without reference to Carol Hewitt's remarkable essay which was originally published in Probe magazine. To leave out Hoover's instructions on this issue and what Bardwell Odum did in carrying them out is to whitewash the whole matter. Hoover understood that leaving the Minox on the evidence inventory would be dangerous to the official story.  Why would someone like Oswald have a camera like that?  Where did he get it? How did he develop the pictures?

This was the problem:  the camera appeared on not one but two inventory lists.  First the DPD list and then the joint FBI /DPD list.  Carol describes what happened next like this: " When the evidence was taken to Washington, DC, the FBI lab prepared its very own inventory by way of a third list; any reference to the Minox camera would disappear from this third list." (The Assassinations, p. 238)

As Carol goes on to explain, the  FBI chose to rephotograph the evidence they took that night, and the Minox camera itemized in #375 of the joint inventory list ceased to exist in the set of microfilmed photos first returned to the Dallas Police by the FBI. Photo #375, which was supposed to be a group photo of the Minox--along with several other camera items--is now just a Minox light meter.  (pp 238-89)

Any normal thinking person would begin to smell a rat after this.  Somehow GD does not.  Hmm.

How about this:  Because of this subterfuge, a mini ciivl war broke out in Dallas.  Reporters got information that the FBI had altered the inventory list.  And they were now pressuring the police--oh does this remind you of what is happening at Parkland?--to change their stories and memories.  In other words make the Minox disappear and change it to a light meter. Gus Rose refused to play along. He insisted it was a Minox and it was Oswald's. (p. 239)

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

The FBI was now in trouble.  The Dallas cops, as bad as they were, would not go along with this one. They would not change the Oswald Minox camera to a light meter.   Thus, making Oswald look like something Hoover did not want him to be, and also making the FBI look like cover up artists.  This one went all the way up the ladder in the Bureau. One way out for J. Edgar was to produce another Minox camera to cover up the (disappeared) first one.  This is what the FBI did. With a bit of help.

Branigan called Shanklin to point out the problem with the inventories. He said that somehow the Minox was not there. Shanklin got the hint.  He now said that the cops were wrong, no such MInox was found.  This was clearly a lie.  And Hoover tried to cover it by saying this: we have all the Minox related items except the camera. (p. 240)

And now came the clincher. Hoover told Shanklin to investigate the matter.  And he should contact the DPD, Marina, and Mrs Paine. Now Shanklin sent Bardwell Odum on this assignment.  Odum knew the Paines, in fact, was on friendly terms with them. He contacted Ruth.  On January 30, 1964--over two months after the assassination, two months after the search of her house, weeks after the storm of controversy had broken out between the cops and FBI----she now recalled that, hey Bardwell, you know Mike had a Minox! He had dropped it into salt water several years ago.  She thought he had thrown it away. But she would ask him. The next day, she called Odum and said, woops, Mike still had the camera and it was in a coffee can in the garage. 

Please Note what this means at this stage:

1. The cops did a lousy job of asking questions and searching the place for two days.  Could not find that coffee can that Mike put that expensive camera into.

2. The cops also lied--more than once-- about about finding a Minox during their original search. 

So now Odum drives to the Paine house, Mike and Ruth are both there.  Mike now joins in the fun and says: hey I repaired the camera with kerosene.  Which would wipe away any fingerprints.  Michael now really began getting inventive. He knew he had to cover up for Point 1 above. So he said, he gave the officers a drawer full of photographic materials, but not the camera. He then really piled it on. He also added this: He had mentioned the Minox to the cops and told them it was in the garage but they were not interested in it. 

This was ridiculous.  The police already found a Minox and there was plentiful evidence for it, until the FBI  started making it disappear.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Now, thanks to Ruth and Michael, who were telling everyone that Oswald wanted to be a big man and killing Kennedy  did the trick, Hoover had solved his problem.  He has a 'second"  Minox that Mike had tried to give the police, but they were not interested in it the first two days.  Bardwell Odum, and the Paines, had separated Oswald from the first camera.  And they now substituted another camera, that was allegedly Michael's, for the first one..

So now, the whole trick about turning the first camera into a light meter would work.  The light meter was now Mike's for his Minox. But Mike was not done. Odum asked him about the No Admittance sign in his garage the police noted during their original search.  It is also on the DPD/FBI list.  Mike made that disappear also.  

Odum now typed up his report. Mike's discovery cured the problem. Odum now poured it on: he wrote that the cops also bought into it.  Which was another lie.  (p. 241). But further, as Carol points out, the FBI was analyzing the Minox as early as the 25th!

When Mike took the stand, he called Bardwell Odum, "Bob".  Odum also knew Cliff Shasteen, who cut his hair. He also cut Oswald's.

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

One last point: this was not the only camera problem Ruth solved.

She also produced the Imperial Reflex for the BYP.  None of the other cameras could take that kind of picture.  So she found that camera after the police could not, even though they did go through boxes which contained it.  But what was LHO doing with all these cameras?  A MInox, a Cuera 2, a Stereo Realist, and the Imperial Reflex. 

The Paines made the Minox disappear.  And then when Marina was talked out of the Stereo Realist and into accepting the Imperial Reflex, Ruthie said well the Stereo Realist was hers all along.  it just took her 8 months to figure it out.

Anyone who can cut out all of the above from this issue and present it with one dubious picture, well, that person could accept Aaron Kohn and his Clem Sehrt story. 

The FBI is who got us into this mess. As long as we conceal their machinations, we will never get out.

 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Pete Mellor]

40 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

One last point: this was not the only camera problem Ruth solved.

She also produced the Imperial Reflex for the BYP. 

All this is so convoluted....it does seem as bent as a nine shilling note!

One important piece of evidence that was not present during the initial searches of the property, but turned up at a later date, was the Imperial Reflex duo-lens camera. This inexpensive, gray metal body camera was proven by FBI photographic expert Lyndal Shaneyfelt to have taken the infamous “Backyard Photos” which featured Lee Oswald holding his guns, seemingly the same guns used to commit his notorious crimes.10 One of these photos, purportedly taken by Marina Oswald outside their Neeley Street apartment in Dallas, was featured on the cover of Life Magazine and seemed to influence public opinion about Oswald’s guilt. As stated, the photographs and their negatives were found at the Paine residence on the 22nd, but according to detectives present at that search, the camera that took the pictures was nowhere to be found.

According to an FBI document from March 26, 1964 (published in the Warren Commission as Exhibit 2557), Marina Oswald, on February 17, was shown photographs of the “Cuera-2” and Stereo Realist cameras in an effort to determine which camera was used. She did not recognize either. She stated that she had taken the photos with an American-made box camera, gray, and made of aluminum.  She recalled that she had to look down into the viewfinder located on the top of the camera while holding the camera at chest level. Robert Oswald, too, had been asked about any cameras the previous day and did not recognize either, nor could he furnish any additional information. On February 19, Detective John McCabe of the Irving Police Department notified the FBI that he found a camera amongst boxes of Oswald’s possessions during the November 23 search of the Paine residence, but he left the camera because it was in poor condition. (None of the four Dallas Police detectives, Rose, Adamcik, Stovall, or Moore, recalled seeing the camera on the 22nd or the 23rd. According to an FBI document, “They all stated that if it (the camera) had been discovered during the search, they would have brought it in.”) Later that day (Feb. 19), Ruth Paine relayed to the FBI that Robert Oswald picked up the last remaining items at their home after the assassination, later verified to have been on December 8. On February 24, Robert Oswald was contacted by investigators, whereby he surrendered possession of the Imperial Reflex dual lens camera. He said that his brother had purchased the camera before he went into the Marines in 1957, leaving it in Fort Worth with Robert when he left for the Soviet Union in 1959.” As quoted elsewhere, Robert Oswald, alone, felt the items were of no evidentiary value and held onto them, an explanation was good enough for the FBI and Warren Commission. Seemingly, no investigative body was concerned that Robert, under Secret Service scrutiny when he retrieved the camera from the Paines’, neglected to mention this potential evidence to anyone for three months.

[John Butler]

On 4/11/2022 at 11:35 AM, Pete Mellor said:

Jonathan, researcher A.J. Weberman filed a F.O.I.A. to have photos released from the Minox.....as I understand it one of the images was of Oswald in Asia with an M16 rifle, indicating that the Minox was in Oswald's possession prior to his defection to the Soviet Union.

The weapon in the photo is a standard M1 Garand issued to Marine and Army personnel during the late 1950's.  I believe the Army changed to the M14 in 1957 and the Marines later.  The M16 came later.

It that photo of Oswald with a M1 was from the films developed for Weberman than at least part of the photos found by the FBI were Oswald's.

I made the same mistake of thinking the Paine photos were Oswald's photos.  I'm still not convinced that all are.  There are a number of troops aboard ships I believe are Marines rather than Army GIs.  There are definitely army photos mixed in with others.  One can identify the strange army hat of that period, the Ridgeway hat.

Since Oswald and Paine were both in Japan, and not that many years apart, the scenes of Japanese life can be attributed to either Oswald or Paine.  I also have questions about the European vacation photos of the Paines. 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by John Butler

[Greg Doudna]

Anyone following this, note carefully: neither DiEugenio nor the Lisa Pease article address the DPD evidence photo. When asked in the conversation in the past to which he refers where is the Minox camera in that DPD evidence photo, DiEugenio became abusive and said he was refusing to talk to me further. That was his response to the question the last time I asked. But never mind the style issue, look at the substance: no addressing the Dallas Police Department evidence photo.

The Dallas Police Department Crime Lab's evidence photo of Rusty Livingston published in 1993, taken before that evidence was given to the FBI, tells what was there. To talk all that smoke and mirrors without addressing this central point and the central question of the title of this topic is just deflection and distraction.

Sorry James DiEugenio. You cannot address this issue without addressing the issue.

[John Butler]

On 4/10/2022 at 10:48 PM, Michael Crane said:

I Googled 1960 Minox Spy Camera because that is when Oswald was a spy in Minsk.At first,I wanted to see a picture,and second,I wanted to see how big it was.Here is a picture showing the size to give us an idea.To answer your question,I am going to say no.Some of the attachments/accessories don't look like they are there either.

 

Minox cameras had different appearances depending on the model.  Here are some of different appearance.

 

There are other models including one that was completely featureless.  It had an aluminum case with the only feature was the seam separating the two parts of the camera cover.  It was like the Minox C but without an apparent slide feature.  When it opened it had controls like the Minox EC. 

None of these cameras are visible in Greg's photo example.  Still, it doesn't mean anything.  One could have simply removed the offensive camera from the photo.  A Minox camera was listed on the police inventory and one should have been there.  Would Dallas DPD officers know what a Minox camera was or what it was supposed to be used for as a camera? 

The DPD list is very interesting:

Either Michael Paine or Lee Harvey was an active field agent.  Which one?  I go with Oswald.  Michael Paine had military service in the Korean War.  Did he act as a spy then.  No. 

Why do I say active field agent?  Check out what is listed next to the Minox camera.  It is a pedometer.  Take a picture and measure the distances by walking.  Standard spy techniques since WWII. 

Next question.  Is there a pedometer showing in the photo?

My answer is yes based on the following appearances of pedometers from that era.

They often looked like a pocket watch.  We see one in the photo.  The light meter is there and the pedometer is there.  There is no Minox that I can see. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by John Butler

[Michael Crane]

Thanks John  ^^^

[James DiEugenio]

Here is the smoking gun, if you needed any, as to what the FBI was doing.

This is from Probe, March-April 1977, p. 23.

H. W. Hill was the prop manager for the DPD, he checked in evidence and recorded it. He signed an affidavit saying he transferred the evidence list and inventory to FBI agent Warren DeBrueys on 11/26. 

He was present when each item was called out for the stenographer.  He swore that Item 11192-G showed that the DPD picked up a Minox camera, a pedometer, a compass, a Hansa self timer, a lens hood, a fifteen power telescope, some other items, and that  photo 375 was taken of the above articles.  

He then added the following.  An FBI agent came to him later and said they did not get the camera.  Only the light meter and he wanted Hill to note this for the record.

 

How many witnesses does one need as to the FBI perfidy in this regard and the Paines' willingness to go along with it?

[James DiEugenio]

From the HSCA interview with Gus Rose:

HSCA: Minox camera, was that with Ruth Paine's camera equipment?

Rose: No, it was in the sea bag.

HSCA: Oh, in the seabag.

Rose: This was exclusively Oswald's gear.  Ruth Paine explained to me, she stood right there while we searched.  And she explained that everything in that sea bag and some boxes, a couple of three boxes, were Oswald's.

BTW, Rose checked the camera and it had film in it. 

I really do not know how it gets any better than this.  Ruth Paine told Rose it was Oswald's! 😀

[John Butler]

46 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

How many witnesses does one need as to the FBI perfidy in this regard and the Paines' willingness to go along with it?

This is very similar to what they did with witness testimony.  They did what they wanted.  They were like the 800-pound gorilla in the room.  Who was going to challenge them?

[Sandy Larsen]

48 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

From the HSCA interview with Gus Rose:

HSCA: Minox camera, was that with Ruth Paine's camera equipment?

Rose: No, it was in the sea bag.

HSCA: Oh, in the seabag.

Rose: This was exclusively Oswald's gear.  Ruth Paine explained to me, she stood right there while we searched.  And she explained that everything in that sea bag and some boxes, a couple of three boxes, were Oswald's.

BTW, Rose checked the camera and it had film in it. 

I really do not know how it gets any better than this.  Ruth Paine told Rose it was Oswald's! 😀

 

In other words, Greg, nearly everything except for the photo says that the photo SHOULD show the Minox camera in it. Yet we do not see it, though we DO see the case and lanyard for it.

It seems obvious to me that the photo was somehow rigged to not show the camera. We just have no idea how that took place.