Which came first, the bus or the Rambler?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove writes:

Quote

But there are at least three different times that the United States government has admitted the possibility (and once the certainty) of an Oswald impersonator.

The first two examples Jim provides have a plausible, innocent explanation. Hoover and other officials were aware that the Soviet authorities had misused foreigners' passports in the past, and were worried that Oswald's passport might be misused in the same way. There was no suspicion of any long-term project involving doppelgangers. 

The third example, of someone impersonating Oswald in a phone call in Mexico City, is much more plausible. But this example does not imply anything more than an ad hoc impersonation.

Quote

Sylvia Meagher's outstanding book has page after page about Two Oswalds.

Meagher gives examples of possible impersonations of Oswald, some of which may in fact have been impersonations and some of which probably weren't, for reasons Jonathan has given. Any actual impersonations would have been done ad hoc to implicate Oswald in the forthcoming assassination attempt.

Meagher does not claim that any of these possible impersonations had anything to do with a far-fetched long-term project involving two Oswalds and two Marguerites that could never have happened. She did not, and would never have, believed anything so far-fetched.

As Jonathan points out, Jim really needs to stop conflating possible impersonations of Oswald with all that preposterous long-term double-doppelganger nonsense. The former do not imply the latter.

Not only is the notion of a long-term double-doppelganger project unnecessary to explain any impersonations of Oswald, but such a project could never have been implemented, as I have pointed out here and elsewhere:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26056-evidence-for-harvey-and-lee-please-debate-the-specifics-right-here-dont-just-claim-someone-else-has-debunked-it/?do=findComment&comment=429433

Jim needs to explain why those supposed masterminds would have chosen to use doppelgangers when a far simpler solution was available to them. If he can, he should do so on that thread.

-----

Correction:

It was Oswald's birth certificate, not his passport, as I mentioned in another thread a couple of years ago:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26529-was-it-really-just-a-mole-hunt-about-oswald/?do=findComment&comment=424554

Edited May 8, 2022 by Jeremy Bojczuk
Added a correction

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim continues:

Quote

That blue/grey jacket was “discovered” (planted) at the TSBD and put into evidence long after the assassination.

That's an interesting idea:

• The authorities didn't want Oswald to have been driven away by an accomplice, because that would imply a conspiracy.
• They needed Oswald to have escaped by himself.
• Three witnesses claimed to have seen a young white man on a bus, wearing a blue jacket.
• So the authorities made sure that Oswald's blue jacket was found ... not on a bus, but in the book depository.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

If any item of evidence was planted to place Oswald on McWatters' bus, it was the bus transfer in Oswald's pocket, not the blue jacket in the book depository.

If the jacket found in the book depository really was Oswald's, it proves that Oswald cannot have been the man on the bus. Unless he had two such jackets, I suppose, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence for that.

Quote

Jones said Oswald was wearing a "light blue" jacket.

No, Jones said that the man he saw was wearing a light blue jacket. Here, Jim is begging the question yet again, just as his venerable Master does.

As I pointed out earlier, Jones did not identify the man as Oswald, and the description he gave did not match Oswald. The important point is that Roy Milton Jones is a witness against Oswald having been on McWatters' bus.

That leaves Mary Bledsoe and Cecil McWatters. There is no good reason to suppose that Bledsoe was on McWatters' bus either, and McWatters himself clearly thought the passenger in question was Jones, not Oswald.

Without these three witnesses, we have no grounds to believe that Oswald was on that bus.

Unfortunately, both the lone-gunman theory and the 'Harvey and Lee' theory require Oswald to have been on that bus. Neither theory is credible.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim laments:

Quote

Mr. B. goes on and on saying how John A. and I are dishonest and saying we wear "tin foil hats"

I've explained why Armstrong seems to have been dishonest in misleading his readers about the mastoidectomy evidence which disproved his theory, and why his habit of begging the question might also be seen as dishonest.

Begging the question isn't necessarily dishonest, but when someone does it over and over again, as Armstrong does in his novel and in the 'naysayers' article Jim quotes, it's difficult to explain except as a deliberate attempt to mislead his readers (again).

Jim frequently begs the question in the same way Armstrong begs the question. In Jim's defence, he is usually quoting the words of The Master, so he may not actually be dishonest in the way Armstrong appears to be.

Jim's friend Greg Parker offers an alternative opinion in this post:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2204-armstrong-on-the-cab-and-bus-rides#33398

I'd forgotten that Armstrong's 'naysayers' article about the bus journey had been questioned a couple of years ago, twice. Here's the other one: 

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2286-are-you-a-naysayer

Those threads are worth reading for anyone who is tempted not to laugh at the doppelganger-friendly interpretation of the flimsy bus journey evidence.

A few posts further on, Alex Wilson writes:

Quote

I'm seriously starting to think the whole H andL fantasy is just an attempt to dress up the lone gunman/ Warren Report narrative and make it more palatable for the CT twinkies. No one but Armstrong and the Warrenistas attempt to put Oswald in the 6th floor window.

That's a good point. Important elements of the 'Oswald did it' narrative are identical in both the lone-gunman theory and the 'Harvey and Lee' theory:

• Oswald was on the sixth floor, shooting at JFK;
• he escaped by bus (or one of him did);
• and he shot Officer Tippit.

There really isn't any strong evidence for any of these claims. I get the impression that very few genuine critics of the Warren Report find all of these claims convincing. The 'Harvey and Lee' theory is just the Warren Report with added paranoia.

On the plus side, it's quite entertaining to see Jim Hargrove and John Butler trying to defend important aspects of the Warren Report which few critics take seriously.

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

That's a good point. Important elements of the 'Oswald did it' narrative are identical in both the lone-gunman theory and the 'Harvey and Lee' theory:

• Oswald was on the sixth floor, shooting at JFK;
• he escaped by bus (or one of him did);
• and he shot Officer Tippit.

There really isn't any strong evidence for any of these claims. I get the impression that very few genuine critics of the Warren Report find all of these claims convincing. The 'Harvey and Lee' theory is just the Warren Report with added paranoia.

On the plus side, it's quite entertaining to see Jim Hargrove and John Butler trying to defend important aspects of the Warren Report which few critics take seriously.

Jim,

It's all your fault.  I guess I should throw John Armstrong under the bus,too.  I went to bed last night a firm conspiracy theorist, with some radical views, and I wake up this morning a supporter of the Warren Commission.  I don't know how that happened.  I have some 3000+ posts here on the forum and I can't find even one line suggesting I support the Warren Commission.  I don't think anyone else can either except through the rationalizations of Jeremy Bojczuk.  

But, Jeremy Bojczuk says so.  So, it must be so....  I am an LNer.  I have put Oswald on the 6th floor with a rifle and didn't even know that.  And, Harvey killed Tippit.  Astounding!    

All I can conclude is the man must be a comedian.  He says its entertaining.  Maybe that suggests we are the comedians.

3 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

The 'Harvey and Lee' theory is just the Warren Report with added paranoia.

That line is so far out there I just had to repeat it.  It has to be true since Jeremy Bojczuk said it.   Nah.  Jeremy has gone around a bend that I and others can't or shouldn't follow.  Maybe his twin, Jonathan Cohen, will come on and support Jeremy's conclusions.  I can't think of too many more who would.

  

Edited May 6, 2022 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

22 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Dead wrong, as usual. Jeremy and I have always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life. But that does not mean the impersonations were part of some absolutely preposterous long-term doppelganger project. The implication that Sylvia Meagher's writings somehow support the "Harvey and Lee" theory is profoundly off-base.

John,

Well, it's interesting to see that Mr. B. and Jonathan Cohen "have always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life."  Perhaps Mr. B. will tell us, specifically, which times Oswald was impersonated.

[Jim Hargrove]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

• So the authorities made sure that Oswald's blue jacket was found ... not on a bus, but in the book depository.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?

Nevertheless,the bus and taxi Oswald DID leave the building wearing a blue/grey jacket, as recalled by Cecil McWatters, bus passenger Roy Milton Jones, and taxi driver William Whaley.

And how was that jacket discovered in the TSBD days after the assassination? By none other than Roy Truly, who, of course, couldn’t remember who gave it to him.  This is the same man who, unarmed, fearlessly charged up the staircase ahead of an armed policeman toward the so-called “sniper’s nest.”

And it makes perfect sense in the unfolding cover-up since Westbrook “found” the white “Eisenhower style” jacket near 10th and Patton. Someone decided it was best to account for the blue jacket.

Quote

If any item of evidence was planted to place Oswald on McWatters' bus, it was the bus transfer in Oswald's pocket, not the blue jacket in the book depository.

Again, the blue jacket had to be accounted for since it wasn’t the white jacket “found” by Westbrook. As to the bus transfer, here it is again, with the obvious signs it was folded in thirds and more.

McWatters, Bledsoe, and Jones all remembered the blond-haired lady getting on the bus at the same time as Harvey Oswald, getting off the bus at the same time as Harvey, and that both the lady and Harvey were given bus transfers by McWatters. Oswald told Capt. Fritz and his interrogators about a blond woman asking William Whaley to call her a taxi, just after Oswald got into Whaley's cab. William Whaley told the WC the same story--that just after Oswald got into the front seat of his taxi, a blond lady asked him to call a taxi for her. How is it possible that Oswald's and Whaley's stories match so well, unless the taxi ride actually happened and was remembered by both Oswald and Whaley?

Quote

 

As I pointed out earlier, Jones did not identify the man as Oswald, and the description he gave did not match Oswald. The important point is that Roy Milton Jones is a witness against Oswald having been on McWatters' bus.

 

Ah, but the evidence young Mr. Jones gave the FBI clearly shows that the man he saw briefly and sat behind him was the bus and taxi Oswald.  According to the FBI report, “Jones advised that before the bus was stopped the driver made his last passenger pickup approximately six blocks before Houston Street, that one was a blonde-haired woman and the other was a dark-haired man.  The same blonde-haired woman seen getting on and off  the bus with Oswald by driver McWatters.  

Taxi driver William Whaley, who Mr. B. clearly does not want to talk about, not only recalled the bracelet on Harvey Oswald’s left wrist, and the blue/gray jacket, but he also recalled a blond woman who asked him to call a taxi just after Harvey Oswald got in.   Our bet is that the blond-haired lady was following Harvey Oswald.

Quote

 

The 'Harvey and Lee' theory is just the Warren Report with added paranoia.

 

John’s take is that the Kennedy Assassination was masterminded by a handful of CIA personnel, anxious to tie Classic Oswald® to Cuba and Castro and thus provoke an invasion of Cuba.  That is hardly how the Warren Report summarized the whole thing. 

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

Well, it's interesting to see that Mr. B. and Jonathan Cohen "have always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life."  Perhaps Mr. B. will tell us, specifically, which times Oswald was impersonated.

Jim,

Jeremy and Jonathan as conspiracy theorists defending against that mean old Armstrong guy's support of the Warren Commission.  What blather!

I noticed some time back that Jonathan said he and Jeremy agreed on various things.  Working together?  

On a different note altogether, do you know where one can find information on Tippit and the HSCA.  I'm interested particularly in the discussion of the Tippit autopsy.  There seems to be some controversy over the angle of the bullet and Tippit's head wound.  Any information you can help with will be appreciated.

Now back to those intrepid Conspiracy Theorists Jeremy Bojczuk and Jonathan Cohen. 

[Jonathan Cohen]

28 minutes ago, John Butler said:

I noticed some time back that Jonathan said he and Jeremy agreed on various things.  Working together? 

More evidence of delusional conspiratorial thinking by John Butler, who, if he'd bother to ask or check, would have quickly learned that Jeremy and I have never met nor corresponded prior to when I began posting more regularly on this forum a couple years ago. But in the words of the sorely missed Robert Charles Dunne, do continue ...

[John Butler]

18 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

More evidence of delusional conspiratorial thinking by John Butler

More "delusional conspiratorial thinking" is really something to think about.  How about the description of John Armstrong, Jim Hargrove, and yours truly being supporters of the Warren Commission due to the Harvey and Lee theory?  Harvey and Lee as a theory supports the WC conclusions.  Can you get many to believe that?  How about yourself?  Do you believe that?

[Jonathan Cohen]

36 minutes ago, John Butler said:

More "delusional conspiratorial thinking" is really something to think about.  How about the description of John Armstrong, Jim Hargrove, and yours truly being supporters of the Warren Commission due to the Harvey and Lee theory?  Harvey and Lee as a theory supports the WC conclusions.

You believe one of the Oswald doppelgangers was involved in the assassination. The Warren Commission believes Oswald committed the assassination. Looks pretty similar to me!

[Jim Hargrove]

On 5/5/2022 at 9:40 AM, Jonathan Cohen said:

Dead wrong, as usual. Jeremy and I have always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life. But that does not mean the impersonations were part of some absolutely preposterous long-term doppelganger project. The implication that Sylvia Meagher's writings somehow support the "Harvey and Lee" theory is profoundly off-base.

Don’t be shy, Jonathan.  Since you and Mr. B. have “always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life,” please be more specific.

I’m really astounded by your admission!  All this name-calling and  apparent outrage by you and Mr. B. is just the result of a disagreement about how many times and for how long LHO was impersonated?

That’s it?  You wouldn’t be more interested in protecting the CIA than anything else, would you?

Do you think LHO was impersonated while one Oswald was being treated for VD in Japan while the other was on the high seas bound for Formosa, or when one was at Bolton Ford in New Orleans while the other was in Russia, or how ‘bout when one Oswald tried to buy rifles from Cuban gun supplier Robert  McKeown while the other Oswald was with the Murrets at Lake Pontchartrain?

These are just suggestions for you.  Feel free to add to the list, but no doubt you will want to be more specific after your astounding admission.  Give us the specifics about how you and Mr. B. have “always agreed that there is evidence Oswald was impersonated at various points in his life.”

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

You believe one of the Oswald doppelgangers was involved in the assassination

So, you believe there were two Oswalds?  Are you willing to go for three or more?

Jim Hargrove said,

"I’m really astounded by your admission!  All this name-calling and  apparent outrage by you and Mr. B. is just the result of a disagreement about how many times and for how long LHO was impersonated?

I think we have converted JB and JC from their LN positions to Harvey and Lee.  They just don't want to admit it yet.

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by John Butler

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

You believe one of the Oswald doppelgangers was involved in the assassination. The Warren Commission believes Oswald committed the assassination. Looks pretty similar to me!

We don't know that for a fact that one of the Oswalds was involved in the assassination.  I take my cue from Jesse Curry.  He said he could never put Oswald (one Oswald) on the 6th floor with a rifle in his hand.  And, nobody else can either.

I have proven with 4th, 3rd floor, and 2nd floor witnesses that it is very unlikely that anyone fired a rifle from the 6th floor of the TSBD.  Junior Jarman told future president Gerald Ford that he heard a shot "from low and to the left".  Which probably means the Dal-Tex, but could also mean a lower floor of the Court Records building.  The lower floor of the TSBD is out due to the witnesses above.

So, no shooting from the TSBD.  Ergo, no Oswald involved in the assassination.  OTH, Lee Oswald could have been there to set up Harvey by making appearances on the 6th floor before the assassination.  I believe Lee Oswald was the Doorway Man and Harvey was out on Elm Steet filming the p. limo at the time of the shooting.  Later he becomes Prayer Man.  This is speculation.  Harvey sees Lee in the doorway next to Bill Shelley and that later explains his saying he was outside with Bill Shelley when the p. limo passed by.

There has been much talk of what Lee or Harvey were wearing on the day of the assassination.  This garment belongs to Lee and this belongs to Harvey, and so on.  Noone has stated or asked the real question that I know of in this discussion of clothing. 

What if Harvey and Lee had the same clothing?  This would be matching sets.  This would be a requirement to double each other.  Otherwise, how could they get away with impersonating each other at the same place such as the TSBD.  Harvey couldn't show up wearing a collared brown shirt and Lee show up wearing a collared white shirt.  Somebody would notice and put 2 and 2 together to make 4.

Maybe Marina washed two sets of clothing and never let on to anyone.  She did say she had two husbands.  Then I would expect she did household duties for both.

Harvey is in the city until the weekend.  Lee is out and about with Marina setting up Harvey during the week days.  Now wouldn't that be something.

     

 

[Michael Crane]

12 minutes ago, John Butler said:

We don't know that for a fact that one of the Oswalds was involved in the assassination.  I take my cue from Jesse Curry.  He said he could never put Oswald (one Oswald) on the 6th floor with a rifle in his hand.  And, nobody else can either.

I have proven with 4th, 3rd floor, and 2nd floor witnesses that it is very unlikely that anyone fired a rifle from the 6th floor of the TSBD.  Junior Jarman told future president Gerald Ford that he heard a shot "from low and to the left".  Which probably means the Dal-Tex, but could also mean a lower floor of the Court Records building.  The lower floor of the TSBD is out due to the witnesses above.

So, no shooting from the TSBD.  Ergo, no Oswald involved in the assassination.  OTH, Lee Oswald could have been there to set up Harvey by making appearances on the 6th floor before the assassination.  I believe Lee Oswald was the Doorway Man and Harvey was out on Elm Steet filming the p. limo at the time of the shooting.  Later he becomes Prayer Man.  This is speculation.  Harvey sees Lee in the doorway next to Bill Shelley and that later explains his saying he was outside with Bill Shelley when the p. limo passed by.

There has been much talk of what Lee or Harvey were wearing on the day of the assassination.  This garment belongs to Lee and this belongs to Harvey, and so on.  Noone has stated or asked the real question that I know of in this discussion of clothing. 

What if Harvey and Lee had the same clothing?  This would be matching sets.  This would be a requirement to double each other.  Otherwise, how could they get away with impersonating each other at the same place such as the TSBD.  Harvey couldn't show up wearing a collared brown shirt and Lee show up wearing a collared white shirt.  Somebody would notice and put 2 and 2 together to make 4.

Maybe Marina washed two sets of clothing and never let on to anyone.  She did say she had two husbands.  Then I would expect she did household duties for both.

Harvey is in the city until the weekend.  Lee is out and about with Marina setting up Harvey during the week days.  Now wouldn't that be something.

     

 

No shooting from the 6th floor? Really? I've heard of shots coming from the 5th floor,but we are going to have to agree to disagree on the 6th floor shooting.

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

What if Harvey and Lee had the same clothing?  This would be matching sets.  This would be a requirement to double each other.  Otherwise, how could they get away with impersonating each other at the same place such as the TSBD.  Harvey couldn't show up wearing a collared brown shirt and Lee show up wearing a collared white shirt.  Somebody would notice and put 2 and 2 together to make 4.

I’ve thought quite a bit about that too.  I eventually decided it didn’t happen that way for two reasons.

First, the bulk of the evidence just doesn’t seem to show that that’s what happened and, second, it probably would have been dangerous for Harvey Oswald’s handler to tell him exactly what to wear that day.  If I was an intelligence asset going to work on 11/22/63, and my handler told me to wear a certain type of shirt, a certain type of pants and even what jacket to put on, I’d sure as heck start asking questions.

And that is the last thing Harvey Oswald’s handlers would have wanted to happen.  Harvey simply HAD to be in the Book Depository building when JFK drove by, or all that careful planning would have been put in serious jeopardy.  One thing we perhaps can all agree on is that if you are planning to assassinate a sitting U.S. president in broad daylight on the streets of Dallas, you simply MUST have a designated patsy.  Without one, the search for you would be relentless and you would most likely be caught.

When Lee Oswald got spooked on the rear stairway and ducked into the office to be seen by Mrs. Reid, I think that was a mistake largely due to the fact that he wasn’t aware of the rules that TSBD laborers were not supposed to be in the office.

Also, sorry I can’t help you out with the Tippit autopsy.  I’ve just never studied it and you surely know more about it than I do.  The most helpful thing I can think of is that carefully worded Google searches usually turn up pretty good results, including from right here on the Ed Forum.