Ted Callaway & The 1:15 Shooting

[James DiEugenio]

Nice one Gil.  

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Gil Jesus said:

So what happened to the magic ambulance ?

It was never enroute to the hospital ?

It never arrived at the hospital ?

It never cleared from the hospital ?

 

Same thing with the patrol car following the ambulance, with Officers Barden and Davenport on-board. There's no mention of them stopping at the hospital either.

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Sandy Larsen

[Gil Jesus]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Same thing with the patrol car following the ambulance, with Officers Barden and Davenport on-board. There's no mention of them stopping at the hospital either.

 

It's funny looking at the subject of this thread because even Mr. Brown's own witness, Ted Callaway, never put the shooting at 1:15.

I asked Mr. Brown to produce ONE witness who said that the shooting was at 1:15 pm.

He could not.

So here's a short list of the witnesses and what time they said they heard the shots, chapter and verse. Note that almost half of these witness accounts never made it to the Commission's 26 volumes or its Report.

Ted Callaway "about 1 pm" ( 24 H 204 )
Sam Guinyard  "about 1pm" ( 24 H 210 )
Helen Markham "approximately 1:06 pm" ( 24 H 215 ) 
Barbara Davis "a few minutes after 1pm" ( CD 87, pg. 556 )
Domingo Benavides "it was about 1 o'clock" ( 6 H 446 )
Francis Kinneth "approximately 1 pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol 25, part 2 of 2, pg. 119 )
Frank Cimino "around 1pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol. 8, pg. 239 )

And I'm not even counting Barry Ernest's "Mrs. Higgins", who years later told him in an interview for his book, "The Girl on the Stairs", that the shooting was at 1:06.

If they had said, "sometime after 1pm", then I could accept 1:15 as a possibility.

But these witnesses put the shooting closer to 1:00 than 1:15. The evidence says what the evidence says and Mr. Brown's interpretation of that evidence does not prove anything.

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Ian Lloyd]

Nice work Gil.

 

It seems to me that there are 2 people who can very closely pinpoint the time – Helen Markham (HM) and T. F. Bowley (TFB)…

HM had a routine whereby she would leave her home around 1:00 to make the short walk of “…6 or 7 minutes…” to the bus-stop to catch her bus. She said the bus time was 1:15. We know the bus time was actually 1:12. Taking into account that, if the bus were to arrive early, it should stop and wait until the allotted time to leave to ensure that any people catching that particular bus would do so as long as they were at the stop at 1:12. But let’s say the 1:12 would normally arrive sometime between 1:12-1:15, hence HM referring to the bus time as 1:15 – also, 1:15 is closer to 1:12 than it is to 1:22; if she usually caught the 1:22, I would probably expect her to say the bus time was 1:25. Therefore, I suspect that she arrived at the bus-stop sometime between 1:07-1:09 in plenty of time to catch the 1:12 bus.

TFB worked as an “Installation Manager” for Western Electricity – sounds like he’s a pretty professional guy and it’s possibly the kind of job that required good timekeeping. He certainly seemed to be precise about times – he states he collected his daughter from school at 12:55 – not “around or approximately or a few minutes before/after 1:00” and, when he arrived at the Tippit scene and checked his watch, it read 1:10 – again, not “around or approximately or a few minutes before/after 1:00”. Also, his precision about the time makes me believe that he was a person who liked, maybe demanded, punctuality both in himself and others, in which case I would expect that he probably regularly checked his watch to ensure it was reading the correct time.

Do we know what type of clock was used in the DPD dispatcher’s office? Analogue or digital?

[Gil Jesus]

5 hours ago, Ian Lloyd said:

Do we know what type of clock was used in the DPD dispatcher’s office? Analogue or digital?

Ian, you make an excellent point regarding the accuracy of the clocks in the Dallas Police dispatch office. Maybe this essay by James Bowles in 1979 will answer the questions you have. Bowles' essay was a repudiation of the acoustic evidence the HSCA heard, but his description of the Dallas Police dispatcher clocks is quite interesting. Scroll down to the section REFERENCE TO TIME AND RECORDINGS

https://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html

If Bowles is correct and the clocks in the dispatch room were 2 or 3 minutes off, add that to the 3 or 4 minutes Benavides took to come out of his truck and examine Tippit's body before he used the radio, and now we're down to 1:09 as a shooting time and I'm sure there are other factors that might bring that down even further.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Tom Gram]

 

22 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Well, Tom, can you answer this for me please.....

If the gun taken off of Oswald in the theater WASN'T the V510210 S&W gun that was shipped to Oswald by Seaport Traders, Inc., then how and when did the Dallas Police acquire the V510210 revolver?

Even Oswald himself admits to taking a revolver into the movie theater. And there is no indication that Oswald owned TWO different revolvers.

I guess CTers can speculate that Oswald got ahold of another pistol and it was this "other" gun that was taken off of him in the theater (and you DO believe he WAS caught with a gun on him in the theater, don't you Tom?)....but why would you want to jump through such "another gun" hoops when the logical answer is that the ONE & ONLY handgun known to be owned by Lee Oswald was, indeed, the gun wrested from his grasp in the Texas Theater on Friday, November 22nd?

Shouldn't Occam and his handy Razor apply in this discussion about LHO's gun?

I'm glad you brought up Occam's razor, because that's essentially why I've been asking about Bentley and McDonald. I'm no philosopher, but according to the internet, one of the earliest expressions of Occam's razor is: "plurality should not be posited without necessity". Isaac Newton's version is: "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances."

We know for a fact that the Warren Report version of the chain of custody is wrong, period. Someone initialed the gun that never officially had possession of it, so any theory in support of the official story needs to explain the appearance of those initials, along with all the other contradictions in the record. In other words, when all the variables are taken into account, I'm not convinced that Occam is on your side here. 

I'm assuming that Hanlon's razor, as opposed to Occam's, is how you'd interpret McDonald and the signing party in Westbrook's office i.e. "never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity". Is such stupidity, to the point of jeopardizing the entire case against Oswald in the Tippit murder, really an adequate explanation for the negligent manner in which the DPD handled the revolver?

If it weren't for the other contradictions in the record, and the history of the DPD under Henry Wade, I'd be a lot more willing to say yes. Bentley is just one of several examples; and since the evidence suggests that he initialed the gun before everyone else, and there appears to have been a deliberate effort to conceal his existence, let alone his involvement, it's pretty reasonable to be suspicious IMO. 

[Ian Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Ian, you make an excellent point regarding the accuracy of the clocks in the Dallas Police dispatch office. Maybe this essay by James Bowles in 1979 will answer the questions you have. Bowles' essay was a repudiation of the acoustic evidence the HSCA heard, but his description of the Dallas Police dispatcher clocks is quite interesting. Scroll down to the section REFERENCE TO TIME AND RECORDINGS

https://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html

Bowles' argument ( as the argument of everyone who trashes the acoustical evidence ) is moot: 

Their argument that the HSCA's timing was off during the period the mike was open doesn't explain how the same standard used ( the Dallas Police dictabelt/ clock ) to identify the sounds in Dealey Plaza was miraculously on time during the Tippit shooting less than 45 minutes later.

They can't have it both ways.

Either the clocks were on time, confirming the acoustical evidence, or they were off time and the time of the Tippit murder was wrong.

Thanks Gil...very interesting read...

[Bill Brown]

7 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

I asked Mr. Brown to produce ONE witness who said that the shooting was at 1:15 pm.

He could not.

 

You appear to be the king of making straw man arguments.

I have never said that any witness said the shooting occurred at 1:15.

[Bill Brown]

7 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

It's funny looking at the subject of this thread because even Mr. Brown's own witness, Ted Callaway, never put the shooting at 1:15.

I asked Mr. Brown to produce ONE witness who said that the shooting was at 1:15 pm.

He could not.

So here's a short list of the witnesses and what time they said they heard the shots, chapter and verse. Note that almost half of these witness accounts never made it to the Commission's 26 volumes or its Report.

Ted Callaway "about 1 pm" ( 24 H 204 )
Sam Guinyard  "about 1pm" ( 24 H 210 )
Helen Markham "approximately 1:06 pm" ( 24 H 215 ) 
Barbara Davis "a few minutes after 1pm" ( CD 87, pg. 556 )
Domingo Benavides "it was about 1 o'clock" ( 6 H 446 )
Francis Kinneth "approximately 1 pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol 25, part 2 of 2, pg. 119 )
Frank Cimino "around 1pm" ( Oswald 201 file, Vol. 8, pg. 239 )

And I'm not even counting Barry Ernest's "Mrs. Higgins", who years later told him in an interview for his book, "The Girl on the Stairs", that the shooting was at 1:06.

If they had said, "sometime after 1pm", then I could accept 1:15 as a possibility.

But these witnesses put the shooting closer to 1:00 than 1:15. The evidence says what the evidence says and Mr. Brown's interpretation of that evidence does not prove anything.

 

William Scoggins:  "around 1:20"

Virginia Davis:  "about 1:30"

Pat Patterson:  "approximately 1:30"

Mary Brock:  "approximately 1:30" (not a witness to the shooting but saw Oswald approximately 3 minutes afterwards)

[Bill Brown]

5 hours ago, Ian Lloyd said:

Nice work Gil.

 

It seems to me that there are 2 people who can very closely pinpoint the time – Helen Markham (HM) and T. F. Bowley (TFB)…

HM had a routine whereby she would leave her home around 1:00 to make the short walk of “…6 or 7 minutes…” to the bus-stop to catch her bus. She said the bus time was 1:15. Taking into account that, if the bus were to arrive early, it should stop and wait until the allotted time to leave to ensure that any people catching that particular bus would do so as long as they were at the stop at 1:12. But let’s say the 1:12 would normally arrive sometime between 1:12-1:15, hence HM referring to the bus time as 1:15 – also, 1:15 is closer to 1:12 than it is to 1:22; if she usually caught the 1:22, I would probably expect her to say the bus time was 1:25. Therefore, I suspect that she arrived at the bus-stop sometime between 1:07-1:09 in plenty of time to catch the 1:12 bus.

TFB worked as an “Installation Manager” for Western Electricity – sounds like he’s a pretty professional guy and it’s possibly the kind of job that required good timekeeping. He certainly seemed to be precise about times – he states he collected his daughter from school at 12:55 – not “around or approximately or a few minutes before/after 1:00” and, when he arrived at the Tippit scene and checked his watch, it read 1:10 – again, not “around or approximately or a few minutes before/after 1:00”. Also, his precision about the time makes me believe that he was a person who liked, maybe demanded, punctuality both in himself and others, in which case I would expect that he probably regularly checked his watch to ensure it was reading the correct time.

Do we know what type of clock was used in the DPD dispatcher’s office? Analogue or digital?

"She [Markham] said the bus time was 1:15."

 

No.  She did not say that.  Ball asked her what time she got her bus.  Strange way to ask a question and we cannot determine for ourselves exactly how Markham interpreted the question.  Therefore, we can not know for sure what her answer meant.  She could just as easily be saying that she got to her bus stop at 1:15.  Don't put words in her mouth.

 

 

"We know the bus time was actually 1:12."

 

THE bus?  No, we don't know that.  A bus stopped there at 1:12 and another one stopped there approximately ten minutes later.  She never gives a time of 1:12 or 1:22.

 

 

"...when he [Bowley] arrived at the Tippit scene and checked his watch, it read 1:10..."

 

The verbal time stamps all throughout the police tapes, combined with Bowley's own descriptions of his actions upon arriving on the scene, completely destroy the idea that Bowley arrived at the scene at 1:10.

[Bill Brown]

23 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Ian, you make an excellent point regarding the accuracy of the clocks in the Dallas Police dispatch office. Maybe this essay by James Bowles in 1979 will answer the questions you have. Bowles' essay was a repudiation of the acoustic evidence the HSCA heard, but his description of the Dallas Police dispatcher clocks is quite interesting. Scroll down to the section REFERENCE TO TIME AND RECORDINGS

https://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html

If Bowles is correct and the clocks in the dispatch room were 2 or 3 minutes off, add that to the 3 or 4 minutes Benavides took to come out of his truck and examine Tippit's body before he used the radio, and now we're down to 1:09 as a shooting time and I'm sure there are other factors that might bring that down even further.

"If Bowles is correct and the clocks in the dispatch room were 2 or 3 minutes off..."

 

You're misrepresenting what Bowles is saying (just like you did when you erroneously stated that Scoggins never saw the cop-killer's face).  Bowles didn't say the clocks in the dispatch room "were 2 or 3 minutes off".  He is giving hypotheticals. i.e. could have happened this way, might have happened that way.

 

You hear many verbal time stamps after 12:30.    This is the dispatcher reading from the clock in front of him.  Therefore, these time stamps are internally consistent in terms of the amount of time between each time stamp.  Bowles gives a number of reasons for why these time stamps may be off, all hypothetical.  However, Bowles doesn't say that this happened and gives no examples of his hypotheticals.

 

Bowles never claims the clocks were off at all on the day of the assassination.  Again, all he did was provide hypotheticals.  People like Gil Jesus then switch this around to say that the clocks were "2 to 3 minutes off".  Is this dishonesty or ignorance?

Edited July 19, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Gil Jesus]

3 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

You're misrepresenting what Bowles is saying (just like you did when you erroneously stated that Scoggins never saw the cop-killer's face).  Bowles didn't say the clocks in the dispatch room "were 2 or 3 minutes off".  He is giving hypotheticals. i.e. could have happened this way, might have happened that way.

 

You hear many verbal time stamps after 12:30.    This is the dispatcher reading from the clock in front of him.  Therefore, these time stamps are internally consistent in terms of the amount of time between each time stamp.  Bowles gives a number of reasons for why these time stamps may be off, all hypothetical.  However, Bowles doesn't say that this happened and gives no examples of his hypotheticals.

 

Bowles never claims the clocks were off at all on the day of the assassination.  Again, all he did was provide hypotheticals.  People like Gil Jesus then switch this around to say that the clocks were "2 to 3 minutes off".  Is this dishonesty or ignorance?

If I were you, I'd be careful about calling people dishonest or ignorant. You're not in the newsgroups anymore.

[Gil Jesus]

11 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

If I were you, I'd be careful about calling people dishonest or ignorant. You're not in the newsgroups anymore.

After reading it a second time, the 3 or 4 minutes were in reference to the electronic timeclocks used by the employees to punch the time on the call sheets. I misread it and I regret and apologize for the error.

However, there are points Bowles made in that essay that stood out to me regarding the accuracy of the Police radio time checks :

1. A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next.

2. The time stated in periodic station identification time checks was not always exact. 

3. There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time."

Let's not forget that the Police dispatch that day was very busy.

In fact, the Dallas Police were so busy that day that when William Scoggins' dispatcher at the taxi company called police to report the shooting, the call was so long that the FBI stated that the the posting of Scoggins' call at 1:25 in the taxi record was "delayed pending notification of the Dallas Police Department."  ( CD 5, pg. 78 )

My question is: how long was the taxi dispatcher on hold ?

And while I'm on the subject of Scoggins, Mr. Brown said that I "misrepresented" Scoggins' testimony that he didn't see the killer's face, this is what Scoggins testified:

Mr. BELIN. When you saw the officer fall, when was the next place that you saw the man, or did you see him at the same time you saw the officer fall, the other man?

Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I saw him coming kind of toward me around that cutoff through there, and he never did look at me. He looked back over his left shoulder like that, as he went by. It seemed like I could see his face, his features and everything plain, you see. ( 3 H 327 )

He never saw the killer's face. It only SEEMED like he could. Scoggins was to the right of the killer as he passed by and the killer looked back over his left shoulder. 

There's nothing to misrepresent there. The witness testified that "it SEEMED like I could see his face", not that he saw his face.

In addition, Scoggins was shown a photograph lineup  which included a picture of Oswald and he picked someone else as the man he saw.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime later, after the lineup, did any of the police officers show you with a picture of anyone and ask you if you could identify him?
 

Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
 

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was an FBI man or a Dallas policeman or a Secret Service agent?
 

Mr. SCOGGINS. He was an FBI or a Secret Service.
 

Mr. BELIN. What did he ask you and what did you tell him?
 

Mr. SCOGGINS. He gave me some pictures, showed me several pictures there,, which was, some of them were, pretty well resembled him, and some of them didn't, and they looked like they was kind of old pictures, and I think I picked the wrong picture. I am not too--
 

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to you and what did you say to him, if you remember?
 

Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't really--I know he showed me his credentials.
 

Mr. BELIN. Did he say to you something like "These are pictures we have of Lee Harvey Oswald"? Did he use that name in front of you, or did he say, "Here are some pictures. See if you can identify them"--if you remember?
 

Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't remember, but after I got through looking at them and everything, and I says, I told them one of these two pictures is him, out of this group he showed me, and the one that was actually him looked like an older man than he was to me. Of course, I am not too much on identifying pictures. It wasn't a full shot of him, you know, and then he told me the other one was Oswald. ( 3 H 335 )

When the shooting occurred, Scoggins bailed out of his cab like a scared rabbit and was lying next to it in the street. He never saw the killer's face and that's why he picked the wrong picture.

His "positive identification" of Oswald in lineup # 4 is null and void because Oswald was placed in the lineup with two teenagers and a Mexican. You might have well just hung a sign on Oswald saying "I'm the one".

 

There's nothing to misrepresent. The testimony is the evidence.

None of these witness identifications stemming from these unethical and unfair lineups would have been admitted as evidence in court. The fact that the police continued to question him after he had "lawyered up" is enough to have the whole case against him dropped.

Whether Mr. Brown, Mr. Von Pein and their ilk like it or not, the case against Oswald was garbage. The authorities knew it. They conspired with Ruby to kill him on Friday night, but when he failed, they were forced to arraign Oswald at 1:35am on Saturday morning for the assassination without any evidence. Ruby had to kill him before they gave up custody because once he was in the Sherriff's custody, he was going to trial. And they couldn't have that.

So they let Ruby in the basement Sunday morning to get it done. They waited until he was in position, then brought Oswald down and led him into the ambush.

Just like they had done two days earlier with JFK.

I sincerely hope in the future, Mr. Brown will refrain from publicly attacking members of this forum because he doesn't agree with what they post. If you don't agree, post your evidence. Any forum community relies on its members to treat each other with respect, whether they agree with each other or not.

Some members here don't agree with everything I post. But they have the class to admit that without attacking me personally and for that they have my utmost respect. And I don't have a problem with being corrected if it's done with tact.

I don't insult members or question their credibility or motive. All I ask for is the same treatment in return.

I also hope that when Mr. Brown engages our members in debate, he has the class to use citations, links and sources in support of his position.

To do anything less will not damage his opponent's credibility, but his own.

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Gene Kelly]

Sandy/Gil

Regarding your question of what happened to the ambulance - and the patrol car following the ambulance with Barden and Davenport - I find it quite strange there are no dispatch records/times enroute to the hospital, arriving at the hospital, or even being cleared from the hospital.  This was, after all, a cop killing.

When this unfortunately happens in our area, the entire department responds (including the Police Commissioner).  To have no record of these fundamental and important details is inexplicable ... save for the fact that the records were doctored.  

Gene

 

[Gil Jesus]

13 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Sandy/Gil

Regarding your question of what happened to the ambulance - and the patrol car following the ambulance with Barden and Davenport - I find it quite strange there are no dispatch records/times enroute to the hospital, arriving at the hospital, or even being cleared from the hospital.  This was, after all, a cop killing.

When this unfortunately happens in our area, the entire department responds (including the Police Commissioner).  To have no record of these fundamental and important details is inexplicable ... save for the fact that the records were doctored.  

Gene

 

You're absolutely correct Gene and that was the point we were trying to make. The transcripts show that after it arrives at the scene ( Code 6 ) at 1:18pm, 602 ( ambulance with Tippit's body ) tries to call dispatch twice, then never shows up on the transcript. I searched that transcript until 5:22 pm and nothing. In our town, police, fire and ambulance were dispatched from a "Communications Center" manned 24 hrs by civilian and police dispatchers. Everything was logged. And I mean everything. So for me to see that the ambulance disappears from the radio and no documentation of when it was enroute to the hospital, when it arrived and when it cleared, is very strange to me, and at the least very suspicious. It didn't just disappear from the transcript, it disappeared from the radio.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Gil Jesus