Prayer Man

[Sandy Larsen]

On 8/6/2022 at 11:26 AM, Pat Speer said:

So Bart's discovery is not "proof" of anything. It's a valuable discovery that helps support his chosen Prayer Man scenario. But it is not proof, or even close to it.

 

Bart's discovery (i.e. Hosty's note that Oswald went to watch the P. Parade) is very strong evidence that that was Oswald's stated alibi during his interrogations. And it corroborates other evidence that indicates that the second-floor Baker/Truly encounter was fabricated as a means to place Oswald away from the front steps during the motorcade.

I'm not just repeating Bart's contentions here. I independently came to the same conclusion as Bart's years ago. (My biggest contribution was locating Gloria Calvery, along with Thomas Graves, in the Darnell clip. Because it allowed me to show that Lovelady and Shelley had to be asked to lie in order to support the fabricated second-floor Baker/Truly encounter.)

Bart deserves a great deal of praise for the all the work he's done. Those who detract from his work do so primarily because it clashes with their own prior work that is based in part on the assumption that the second floor-encounter really did occur.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

 

On 8/8/2022 at 9:08 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

It is possible that the lady in dark clothes facing the man standing on the steps could be Gloria Calvary.

 

Yes, that woman is Gloria Calvery. She's talking to Lovelady. The woman next to her is either Karan Hicks or Carol Reed.

 

On 8/8/2022 at 9:08 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Mr. SHELLEY. Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said “The President has been shot” and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute. 

 

------------------

 

In his first-day statement, Bill Shelley said that he ran across the street to the concrete island immediately after the shots and met Gloria Calvery THERE. At which time he turned around and went back to the building.

And yet in his WC testimony, Shelley said he stayed on the steps till Calvery arrived (at the steps!), at which time he and Lovelady crossed over to the concrete island.

Billy Lovelady's  WC testimony was much the same. He said they waited about three minutes before Calvery arrived at the steps, at which time he and Shelley crossed over to the concrete island.

The video frame above is consistent with the first day statements of both Lovelady and Shelley. But it proves that they both lied in their WC testimonies.

And their lying wasn't confined to just their WC testimonies. They made a number of statements over a number of months and their stories changed each time. I believe the WC/FBI was tweaking their and Bakers stories as need to make the (fabricated) second-floor Baker/Truly encounter work out.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

14 hours ago, Michael Davidson said:

The PM figure looks to me like he has his arms folded and reminds me of some footage from one of the TMWKK episodes 

Michael:

you may wish to consider the following solution based on 3D modeling of Darnell doorway using realistic modelof Lee Harvey Oswald. In my view, Prayer Man did not have his arms fully crossed, rather both hands were infront of his chest but not touching.

Here is an overlay of such 3D model solution with Darnell still. Absence of disparities between the two overlayed images (the 3D model and Darnell still) offers validation of this solution. It is debatable if the hands were exposed to sun light directly or whether the hands were in shadow but very close to the sun lit area of the doorway. This solution has both hands reflecting the sun but there would not be a problem to tuck both hands 1-2 cm backwords in which case the hands would be in the shadow.

 

 

And this is a close up view of Prayer Man's location and posture (not from Darnell perspective). This man was 5' 9 3/4''.

 

 

 

 

[Michael Davidson]

That looks an unnatural  stance much more likely his arms were folded . Also to me it looks like hes busy talking to Frasier

[David Josephs]

Very little of what Shelley said or testified to was the truth Sandy...

He named people on the steps with him who were not there, he claims he did things after the shots that he did not.

I'm sorry you have planted this flag based on the words of 2 of the most dishonest people on the steps.

Almost as bad as believing Truly and Baker's bogus 2nd floor lunchroom (if we are going by first day statements and affidavits) or Westbrook and Croy for that matter.

39 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yes, that woman is Gloria Calvery. She's talking to Lovelady. The woman next to her is either Karan Hicks or Carol Reed.

Vickie Adams, Truly and Baker see Lovelady and Shelley just inside the back door entrance by the electrical panel...

I simply cannot see how Lovelady remains, moves, is with Shelley, is not and yet is just standing there well after shots are fired and people are moving to the North Knoll and retaining wall area.

I know this becomes a matter of timing for which people have notoriously poor judgement but the lies and changing stories of these men makes it imperative that identifications be made based on visuals, not testimony.

We ALL know there is a man in the deep west corner of the landing yet not a soul is credited with saying a single word about the existence of that person, not passing him going back into the TSBD or staring at him as Wesley is seen doing a number of times.

I've seen that frame, claiming that is Shelley with barely a tiny piece of a head to go on seems a bit slim for me to make an identification.

You are 100% sure that is Lovelady when it appears to be the back of a woman's head to me...  

 

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

26 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

We ALL know there is a man in the deep west corner of the landing yet not a soul is credited with saying a single word about the existence of that person, not passing him going back into the TSBD or staring at him as Wesley is seen doing a number of times.

I've seen that frame, claiming that is Shelley with barely a tiny piece of a head to go on seems a bit slim for me to make an identification.

You are 100% sure that is Lovelady when it appears to be the back of a woman's head to me...  

Does Sandy agree with John Butler that Altgens 6 was somehow altered with the use of an "Oswald face mask" ?

[David Josephs]

19 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Does Sandy agree with John Butler that Altgens 6 was somehow altered with the use of an "Oswald face mask" ?

I don't think John Butler even agrees with that anymore...  I may be wrong, but no flippin' way.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Very little of what Shelley said or testified to was the truth Sandy...

I'm sorry you have planted this flag based on the words of 2 of the most dishonest people on the steps.

 

I've planted what flag based on Shelley's and Lovelady's lies?

If you re-read my two posts above you will see that I called them both out for their lies.

 

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Almost as bad as believing Truly and Baker's bogus 2nd floor lunchroom (if we are going by first day statements and affidavits) or Westbrook and Croy for that matter.

 

I also said that the second-floor Truly/Baker was a fabrication. Twice.

I'm glad we agree on all this. Not sure how you thought we didn't.

 

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

You are 100% sure that is Lovelady when it appears to be the back of a woman's head to me...  

 

Yes I'm sure about that. You can see Lovelady's head turning to the west and back in this animated gif:

 

 

You can barely make out his eyes and mouth when he's facing us, and the hair above his left ear when he turns his head to the west.

In addition, I have an animated gif that shows him bending down toward Gloria Calvery, as if he needs to get closer to hear what she is saying. (Given that they are standing face-to-face, they are obviously talking to one another. Though he is on a higher step... hence his need to bend down.) I don't have enough attachment space to upload that one, but I'll e-mail you a copy if you want.

 

[Pat Speer]

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Bart's discovery (i.e. Hosty's note that Oswald went to watch the P. Parade) is very strong evidence that that was Oswald's stated alibi during his interrogations. And it corroborates other evidence that indicates that the second-floor Baker/Truly encounter was fabricated as a means to place Oswald away from the front steps during the motorcade.

I'm not just repeating Bart's contentions here. I independently came to the same conclusion as Bart's years ago. (My biggest contribution was locating Gloria Calvery, along with Thomas Graves, in the Darnell clip. Because it allowed me to show that Lovelady and Shelley had to be asked to lie in order to support the fabricated second-floor Baker/Truly encounter.)

Bart deserves a great deal of praise for the all the work he's done. Those who detract from his work do so primarily because it clashes with their own prior work that is based in part on the assumption that the second floor-encounter really did occur.

 

I too praise Bart. While he is a Prayer Man advocate, he has helped make tons of material available to myself and others irrespective of whether or not it supports his chosen scenario. 

[John Butler]

There were two Oswalds at the TSBD during the assassination.  One left by bus/cab and another by Nash Rambler.

From the John Martin film I have identified Prayerman as being on the street by the trees at the corner of the west TSBD as the p. limo passes by.  He appears to be taking photos with camera flashes.  That excludes him from being Doorway in Altgens 6.  Because of the shooting of the President in front of him he runs to the doorway for cover and concealment from the shooters.  He beats Baker and Truly there.

Doorway man is not Billy Lovelady.  He is an unknown.  Cutouts/facemaks/composites are standard techniques in photo alteration.  Just check the BYPs man.  Or, early photos of Oswald which are said to be composite.  If you can't see the mask there in Altgens 6 when it is so badly done I haven't nothing more to say.

There may be the possibility of the second Oswald being Doorway Man.  This would require the other to cover for him.  But, he had been doing that for years.

Oswald didn't have apple cheeks and such a narrow chin.  That is abnormal in appearance.  Look at the difference in the lighting of the mask and the rest of the face of Doorway Man.  Another thing you may notice is his deformed, abnormal shoulder that slopes way down below his breast area.  It is cut straigh downward.

    

Edited August 10, 2022 by John Butler

[John Butler]

Here's Andre's model:

And, then we have that wonderful animation, the Towner film:

This is taken directly as the p. limo passes the doorway.  The people shown in Altgens 6 are not there.  What we see are white objects I take to be Dallas Policmen's hats once they are connected to the black uniforms below.  Can you explain this as a non-alteration as the p. limo floats dreamily by.  

Where are the Altgens 6 people?  ? ?

[David Josephs]

On 8/10/2022 at 1:04 PM, John Butler said:

Oswald didn't have apple cheeks and such a narrow chin.  That is abnormal in appearance.  Look at the difference in the lighting of the mask and the rest of the face of Doorway Man.  Another thing you may notice is his deformed, abnormal shoulder that slopes way down below his breast area.  It is cut straigh downward.

John,

I truly do not know where you get such poor reproductions of these images and then stand firm on using them tocome to conclusions.

The person in this image is simply behind and to the right of the black man down on the steps..

You can see him well over to the middle of the landing in the bottom image to the right.

 

 

Been thru all this as well John.  Even the noses bend in different directions.  Not concerned how Frazier is supposedly there yet is not seen until well after?

 

And finally Sandy, that looks just as much as that woman turning her head slightly than that being Lovelady...

We see what we want in many cases - no reason I can see that wouldn't be a woman facing up the stairs who in a single frame turns slightly...  especially given what we know of Lovelady/Shelly's actions and ongoing rewriting of their whereabouts.

We agree in many areas...  I don't see this as being Lovelady.. he had already left the stairs, IMO.

DJ

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

yy

Edited August 10, 2022 by David Josephs
Dup

[David Josephs]

On 8/10/2022 at 1:19 PM, John Butler said:

Can you explain this as a non-alteration as the p. limo floats dreamily by.  

Where are the Altgens 6 people?  ? ?

John,  I know I for one have explained this to you a number of times.

The image you offer is not a photograph but a frame from a moving picture camera which is also panning and moving at the same time.

If you truly wish to use that Towner frame to argue either Towner or Altgens was altered you are once again using the poorest quality source material you can find.

When a camera pans like that everything not the focus of the panning will be blurry (how we can tell certain Z-frames are altered)

The WHITE TAN BLACK BLOBS and a terrible re-colorization with filters of that area still makes it difficult to see anyone there

 

 

And below, we have Hughes with the white shirted Lovelady in plain sight, the same frame you offered is bottom right where once again the blurred appearance of people in the doorway is obvious.

The alteration to TOWNER is a very complicated process and is not designed to remove people from the stairway... it is designed to sync with Zapruder, which it does not.

I still suggest you take a bit more time and brush up on how light and cameras work along with the sizes of the frames and the sizes of these images in the frames..  Detail stinks on a macro level and yet you want to arrive at micro conclusions using the same images?

John, show us in Towner/Zap/Nix/Bond what Truly describes... and then look at Position A.  Towner was altered, but having nothing to do with the TSBD doorway.  (I show in a different thread how the limo was made to move independently of the background in Towner..  look it up, pretty amazing really.

DJ

Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street?
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by David Josephs

[Chris Davidson]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:10 AM, David Josephs said:

I think that's Harvey Oswald.. IMHO.

 

 

David,

If Lee was PM, he had a golden opportunity to say he was outside during the shooting.

Instead, he indirectly says (interpret how you will) he was inside. imo

As stated previously, a preponderance of research still leads me pondering.

https://vimeo.com/738462310