Question About Harvey, Lee, and the "Two Marguerites"

[W. Niederhut]

     I've been reading some of the old, labyrinthine literature about Oswald recently, (Oswald and the CIA, Libra, and John Armstrong's Harvey & Lee essays in DiEugenio's Assassinations anthology) and I have a question about Harvey, Lee, and the "two Marguerites."

    (I even reviewed several old Education Forum threads about Harvey & Lee, but didn't find an answer to my question here.)

    If Armstrong's evidence about Harvey, Lee, and the two Marguerites is accurate, whatever became of Lee Oswald and the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald after 11/22/63?

   Any reports or theories?

   Armstrong did a lot of work to reconstruct Marguerite Claverie Oswald's detailed history up until about (?) 1961 or '62 in New Orleans, but then the trail seemed to grow cold.

   I can imagine that the CIA would have, naturally, wanted both of them to disappear, as in  witness protection programs or fatal accidents?

   Another oddity about the case is the apparent differing opinions of Lee's step-brother, John Pic, and his brother, Robert Oswald, about Lee's identity.

https://harveyandlee.net/Moms/Moms.html

 

   

Edited September 3, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Sandy Larsen]

W,

I hope that Jim Hargrove sees your post because he's the resident expert on HARVEY & LEE topics.

Here is what I think:

• HARVEY (fake) Oswald:  Dead, of course.
• LEE (real) Oswald:  Nobody knows. Maybe changed his name and continued working for the CIA.
   
• FAKE Marguerite: Continued life as though she was the real Marguerite.
• REAL Marguerite: Nobody knows. Maybe continued life as though she was a different Marguerite Oswald.

The difficult thing is how to account for relatives of the REAL Marguerite. At least some of them had to have some knowledge of the two Oswald boys. For example, LEE's aunt Lillian.  She testified for the Warren Commission and had to pretend that it was her nephew who'd been shot by Ruby.

 

[Gerry Down]

I tracked down the fake Marguerite:

https://youtu.be/z7HfSAw0LRI

 

[Ron Bulman]

9 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

I tracked down the fake Marguerite:

https://youtu.be/z7HfSAw0LRI

 

While W and Sandy are serious about this, rightfully so, that's funny.

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Gerry Down said:

I tracked down the fake Marguerite:

https://youtu.be/z7HfSAw0LRI

 

Gerry,

     Here's a photo of Marguerite Claverie Oswald with her husband, Edwin Ekdahl, in 1945.

     Does she look anything like the short, heavy-set "Marguerite Oswald" who attended Oswald's funeral?

     (Incidentally, the minister who conducted Oswald's funeral, Louis Saunders, was my father-in-law's best friend.  He presided at my wedding.)

 

Below: Edwin Ekdahl and Marguerite Claverie Oswald in 1945

 

Marina and the other Marguerite Oswald (1963)

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Tony Krome]

Totally debunked, surprised people still talk about it.

[W. Niederhut]

22 minutes ago, Tony Krome said:

Totally debunked, surprised people still talk about it.

Tony,

   I haven't really studied the Harvey & Lee theory, other than reading John Armstrong's two Probe Magazine essays on the subject in DiEugenio's Assassinations anthology today.

   Who "debunked" Armstrong's rather detailed findings?

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Jonathan Cohen]

3 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Tony,

   I haven't really studied the Harvey & Lee theory, other than reading John Armstrong's two Probe Magazine essays on the subject in DiEugenio's Assassinations anthology today.

   Who "debunked" Armstrong's rather detailed findings?

 

"Findings" is a generous word to describe what Armstrong has brought forth. I don't think many people quibble with how his research has generated a wealth of relevant source documents, and the fact that he's made them all available through Baylor is very commendable. However, his interpretation of this information is flawed beyond belief and ultimately quite preposterous. There are dozens of threads on this forum where reasonable alternate explanations for Armstrong's theories have been presented, none of which require a decades-long secret government program involving multiple doppelgangers. Tracy Parnell's Web site is a fantastic repository for laying out the logical fallacies of the "Harvey and Lee" theory.

[Tony Krome]

40 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

"Findings" is a generous word to describe what Armstrong has brought forth. I don't think many people quibble with how his research has generated a wealth of relevant source documents, and the fact that he's made them all available through Baylor is very commendable. However, his interpretation of this information is flawed beyond belief and ultimately quite preposterous. There are dozens of threads on this forum where reasonable alternate explanations for Armstrong's theories have been presented, none of which require a decades-long secret government program involving multiple doppelgangers. Tracy Parnell's Web site is a fantastic repository for laying out the logical fallacies of the "Harvey and Lee" theory.

Saved me replying, cheers

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Gerry,

     Here's a photo of Marguerite Claverie Oswald with her husband, Edwin Ekdahl, in 1945.

     Does she look anything like the short, heavy-set "Marguerite Oswald" who attended Oswald's funeral?

     (Incidentally, the minister who conducted Oswald's funeral, Louis Saunders, was my father-in-law's best friend.  He presided at my wedding.)

 

Below: Edwin Ekdahl and Marguerite Claverie Oswald in 1945

 

Marina and the other Marguerite Oswald (1963)

 

My, she did not age well in 18 years.

[Jonathan Cohen]

19 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

My, she did not age well in 18 years.

No, she didn't. Many people don't, though. No doppelgangers necessary.

[Ron Bulman]

Oh my goodness.  There were two Oswald's.  Harvey and Lee or not. When one was at work, another mailing a rifle order.  Test driving a car with no license, but money coming in soon.  Target practice.  Fat boy in the Mexico City pictures.  Two Oswald's in the Texas Theater. 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

I was really hoping we'd heard the last of this nonsense!

W. Niederhut writes:

Quote

If Armstrong's evidence about Harvey, Lee, and the two Marguerites is accurate, ...

A good deal of Armstrong's evidence is not accurate (wilfully misinterpreted interviews with witnesses 40 years after the event; wilfully misinterpreted documents; amateurishly misinterpreted photographs, etc).

If the premise fails, the question becomes redundant:

Quote

... whatever became of Lee Oswald and the real Marguerite Claverie Oswald after 11/22/63?

Lee Oswald was shot dead by Jack Ruby two days later. Marguerite Oswald died in 1981.

As for what happened to the two imaginary doppelgangers of these real-life people, here is the sum total of research that appears to have been undertaken to fill in this missing element of the theory:

.  .  .

Which rather sums up the amateurish nature of the whole project.

Quote

Who "debunked" Armstrong's rather detailed findings?

Armstrong and White's internally incoherent theory has been debunked by dozens of people on this forum, the ROKC forum, and elsewhere.

It's worth noting that most of the debunkers have been critics of the lone-nut doctrine. They recognise that this sort of far-fetched, poorly supported speculation gives genuine critics a bad name.

Every important aspect of the 'Harvey and Lee' fantasy has been discussed and dissected, usually many times over. Here are a few handy links:

• https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f13-debunked
• https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1588-harvey-lee-links-to-alternative-explanations
• http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/search/label/Harvey%20%26%20Lee
• http://22november1963.org.uk/john-armstrong-harvey-and-lee-theory
• https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1582-harvey-and-lee-cult-the-interview
• (For Ron; the second person 'arrested' was almost certainly George Applin, a witness not a doppelganger) http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25901-two-oswalds-in-the-texas-theater/?do=findComment&comment=407170

[Gerry Down]

6 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

(Incidentally, the minister who conducted Oswald's funeral, Louis Saunders, was my father-in-law's best friend.  He presided at my wedding.)

You were married by the same minister that conducted Oswald's funeral? What an interesting story. Did you know that at the time or only find out about it years later as you studied the JFK assassination?

[W. Niederhut]

5 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

You were married by the same minister that conducted Oswald's funeral? What an interesting story. Did you know that at the time or only find out about it years later as you studied the JFK assassination?

I knew Rev. Louis Saunders buried Oswald long before I ever began to study the JFK research literature a few years ago.  He was a good man-- a liberal, humanitarian Protestant who volunteered to bury and pray for Oswald when no one else in the Dallas/Fort Worth area would.

I remember buying a copy of Don DeLillo's novel, Libra, for my father-in-law back in the 80s, because DeLillo described some details about Saunders in the final chapter of Libra.  (Also, some of the fictional scenes in Libra were set in Denton, Texas, where my father-in-law lives.)

As for the alleged "debunking" of John Armstrong's doppelganger research about Oswald, I'm underwhelmed. 

There seems to be ample evidence of Oswald doppelgangers.   I actually reviewed several Harvey & Lee threads in the forum archives yesterday before starting this thread, and didn't find any bona fide "debunking" of Armstrong's theory.