Cuba #1210- Larry Hancock

[Robbie Robertson]

Larry Hancock has been involved in the study of cold war history and the assassination of John F. Kennedy for approximately 14 years. He is co-author of November Patriots, a docufiction novel and author of Someone Would Have Talked a factual analysis of both the conspiracy and cover-up, published in November of 2003. Larry has researched and published several collections of CIA, FBI and military documents prior to beginning his writing efforts. His document work led to his becoming a board member of the Mary Ferrell Foundation, a major online interactive history archive. With a dozen books in print, his works include an exploration of long term patterns in covert action and deniable warfare. 
 

Out Of The Blank #1210 - Larry Hancock
https://youtu.be/1lJMvNey_Ho

 

[Pete Mellor]

2 hours ago, Robbie Robertson said:

Larry Hancock has been involved in the study of cold war history and the assassination of John F. Kennedy for approximately 14 years.

Well over 20 years I would guess Robbie.

I would estimate between 25-30 years, even though he doesn't look old enough. ☺️

Edited September 13, 2022 by Pete Mellor

[Robbie Robertson]

26 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

Well over 20 years I would guess Robbie.

I would estimate between 25-30 years, even though he doesn't look old enough. ☺️

It was a bio I got from Spartacus educational either way Larry is one of the people I go to on a lot of stuff not only on JFK but UAP, also Joe Green both entertain my curiosity and also help me understand plus some good conversation is always good

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks Pete,  well I started my serious look into the assassination circa 1990/91 so we can just sort of leave it at that without doing the numbers and making it painful.   I suspect the Sparticus description goes back to some of my early participation in the Ed Forum which began...well no need to look at those numbers either....

[Ron Bulman]

Larry is one of the most knowledgeable people on the planet about multiple aspects of the JFKA and several other related subjects.  I'm proud to say he has corrected me on here more than once as well as having agreed with some of my posts and encouraged me to do so, a few privately.  I'd like to publicly thank him for a compliment once from one of the authors I respect most (about the TSBD back door).  Now I have the pleasure of listening to him elucidate again.  Thanks again Robbie. 

[Benjamin Cole]

And don't forget Tipping Point, which you can buy, or read free at the Mary Ferrell site. 

 

[W. Niederhut]

I enjoyed listening to this Larry Hancock interview, and I learned some things that I must have overlooked in my reading of Tipping Point and related books.

For some reason, I thought that JFK (and RFK) had put the kibosh on anti-Castro ops (and assassination ops) after the Cuban Missile Crisis, as part of a deal with Khruschev.

So, I was surprised to hear Larry mention that JFK was, apparently, aware of ongoing Castro assassination ops in the summer and fall of 1963, at the same time that he was trying to establish back channel diplomatic relations with Castro.

It's  deflating to hear about such possible double dealing by a POTUS whom I have always thought of as an idealist--  an anti-colonialist who was aggrieved by the murders of Lumumba and even Diem.

Is it possible that JFK didn't know about ongoing CIA Castro assassination ops in '63?

If he knew, I guess it speaks to the tremendous pressure JFK was under to solve the Castro/Cuba problem.

[Ron Bulman]

Well, that was pretty deep, engaging and fun to listen to.

I think I've read about the practice attack of Cuba on a Caribbean Island.  But didn't realize it was supported or promoted by JFK to warn Castro of potential possibilities.

Some have speculated before me that JFK's transferring CIA covert op's to the military as well of his firing of Dulles, Cabbell, and Bissell might have contributed to his own demise.

If I don't want a war, I have to negotiate.  To an aide in the rose garden.  Never read/heard that quote.  Insightful.  Curious Larry, which aide?

Dulles found on a farm (implied, on 11/22/63.  Yes and no.  Yes, David Talbot found him there on 11/22/63 in Devil's Chessboard.  No, not a farm.  The Farm.  CIA training/prisoner holding area hidden in the woods.  Including Dulles custom built home away from home and control center.  Dulles was reportedly there from Friday late afternoon or evening 11/22/63 through after Lee Harvey Oswald was shot on Sunday 11/24/63.  As you ask on the show Robbie, why would Dulles be involved (at home base) if he was fired by JFK in December 1961?

I'd never read or heard Ruby's attempted purchase of jeeps was to blackmail Cuban officials.  How?

Surely by now I've read this, but I guess it went right over my head.  The HSCA recommended o the Department of Justice the JFKA case be re-opened.  But they ignored the suggestion.

I think Dr Pepper was still an independent company in 1963.  Not affiliated with Pepsi, or in turn Nixon in Dallas on 11/21-22/63.  

If I remember right.  Garrison subpoenaed a copy of the Zapruder film from Time-Life in 1968 for the Shaw trial.  The public first saw it on Geraldo in 1975 because Robert Groden stole/created a copy.  Which led to the HSCA.  This video is all good but start at 5:00 in for the most pertinent part.

 

 

Here is the video Larry mentioned.  Both are better in at least full screen on a laptop.  Stick around for the end of this one, it's funny overall but the ending is killer.  I guess that statement is in bad taste.  Levity?

 

 

   

Edited September 15, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[Matt Allison]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I think I've read about the practice attack of Cuba on a Caribbean Island.

Yep; my father in-law was Navy OCS at the time and participated in it. Crazy sh*t...

[Larry Hancock]

Ron, off the top of my head I don't remember which aide it was who cautioned JFK, it would have to have been someone pretty senior - what I do recall was that when RFK heard about the Castro outreach he strongly cautioned JFK against it because he felt it conflicted with the anti-Castro projects he was very much involved in at the time and was extremely  high risk...including the possibility of a move to impeach in Congress if it leaked.

As to the Jeep deal, you will find that discussed in Tipping Point, it comes from a combination of information from McKewon, from Ruby himself about the deals he had tried to organize (he even expressed his fears about people finding about his deals and about New Orleans while in jail), and fall out from the Garrison investigation in New Orleans - the sources are cited in Tipping Point.  I was just lucky enough to stumble across all the pieces and see the fit...  The jeeps were just part of a deal, not really blackmail, that apparently involved pay offs to several lower level officials to get Trafficante out of jail in Cuba.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Larry Hancock

[Pete Mellor]

13 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Is it possible that JFK didn't know about ongoing CIA Castro assassination ops in '63?

Foreign Relations of the United States, 1961-63, vol. 10.  The CIA's Inspector General Report, declassified by the ARRB, states there was no presidential approval for these plots to kill Castro (pp. 132-34).  From 'JFK Revisited Through the Looking Glass' p. 180.

However, I have read statements from various JM/Wave agents that RFK was vigorously driving these plots, if so, his brother must have been aware.

Not sure of what the truth is here, Jim D may be the best man to comment.

[Larry Hancock]

CIA operations against Cuba were restructured in 1963 with JFK again directing that a joint agency led by State oversee the effort and RFK participated in that committee.  However a covert operations committee remained operational with oversight over what SAS under Fitzgerald was doing.  It was only when Fitz decided to brief either committee about operations that they were given any details.

We absolutely know that anti Castro Cubans kept proposing assassination, as part of AMWORLD,  AMTRUNK and in of course in the contacts with Cuebela.  But those proposals and reports certainly did not go to JFK, its not even certain RFK saw them.  Fitzgerald appears to have been playing a lot of things on his own...for example he knew about TILT but never briefed either committee, nor RFK nor JFK about it...which would have caused and explosion.

While JFK retained control at a very high level, having approval over specific and sanctioned sabotage missions, he appears to have not been aware that Shackley and Morales were running such missions under Commando Mambises strictly on their own initiative and Figzgerald again was doing very selective briefing on that.

Things were really chaotic in regard to Cuba in 1963, increasingly so, and its quite likely that JFK was very much unaware of how often assassination was being brought up in the new anti-Castro programs.  Just as he had been unaware of a number of very critical things - including the assassination plots - in the very first Cuba project back in 1961.

 

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

7 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

CIA operations against Cuba were restructured in 1963 with JFK again directing that a joint agency led by State oversee the effort and RFK participated in that committee.  However a covert operations committee remained operational with oversight over what SAS under Fitzgerald was doing.  It was only when Fitz decided to brief either committee about operations that they were given any details.

We absolutely know that anti Castro Cubans kept proposing assassination, as part of AMWORLD,  AMTRUNK and in of course in the contacts with Cuebela.  But those proposals and reports certainly did not go to JFK, its not even certain RFK saw them.  Fitzgerald appears to have been playing a lot of things on his own...for example he knew about TILT but never briefed either committee, nor RFK nor JFK about it...which would have caused and explosion.

While JFK retained control at a very high level, having approval over specific and sanctioned sabotage missions, he appears to have not been aware that Shackley and Morales were running such missions under Commando Mambises strictly on their own initiative and Figzgerald again was doing very selective briefing on that.

Things were really chaotic in regard to Cuba in 1963, increasingly so, and its quite likely that JFK was very much unaware of how often assassination was being brought up in the new anti-Castro programs.  Just as he had been unaware of a number of very critical things - including the assassination plots - in the very first Cuba project back in 1961.

 

 

 

I'm relieved to hear it.

So, the 1963 Castro assassination ops sound like another example of the CIA and/or anti-Castro Cubans going rogue on JFK-- defying his policies.

[Larry Hancock]

I would definitely say that both groups were going rogue in regard to the controls JFK thought he had in place - and to an extent Des Fitzgerald was letting them get away with it, which is somewhat surprising and definitely not what JFK would have expected. 

Was Fitz  doing it because he figured it was the only way for him to succeed in his assignment...maybe.  Was he just another senior officer who got scammed because he was so distant from actual operations...maybe. 

But there is really no reason he should not have gone to JFK or RFK about TILT, which he was informed about after the fact, given our politically explosive that was...and it would likely have meant an end of career action for Shackley and even JC King.   If TILT could happen pretty much anything could.

Overall JFK thought he was bringing it under control by moving the campaign up a level to a multi-agency format (with State playing lead - and State backed JFK's positive response to Castro, while being concerned CIA would somehow undermine it).  And by kicking off a transition program to move covert Cuban ops away from CIA to the military - but the front line guys at WAVE heard all about it and some of them did indeed undermine things, by going directly against JFK...my view at least.

 

[Pete Mellor]

8 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

I would definitely say that both groups were going rogue in regard to the controls JFK thought he had in place - and to an extent Des Fitzgerald was letting them get away with it, which is somewhat surprising and definitely not what JFK would have expected. 

Was Fitz  doing it because he figured it was the only way for him to succeed in his assignment...maybe.  Was he just another senior officer who got scammed because he was so distant from actual operations...maybe. 

But there is really no reason he should not have gone to JFK or RFK about TILT, which he was informed about after the fact, given our politically explosive that was...and it would likely have meant an end of career action for Shackley and even JC King.   If TILT could happen pretty much anything could.

Overall JFK thought he was bringing it under control by moving the campaign up a level to a multi-agency format (with State playing lead - and State backed JFK's positive response to Castro, while being concerned CIA would somehow undermine it).  And by kicking off a transition program to move covert Cuban ops away from CIA to the military - but the front line guys at WAVE heard all about it and some of them did indeed undermine things, by going directly against JFK...my view at least.

 

Interesting posts Larry, thanks.