Ruth Paine on "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine" film: "Well done, but powerfully awful"

[Guest]

On 12/2/2022 at 6:58 AM, Joe Bauer said:

Someone had to instruct Oswald in how to get to Russia. Can't believe he figured out the right travel plans to do this on his own.

Didn't doing so require specific train and flight info and routes through the right Euro countries. Especially for an American. Correct? 

Was there a bookstore, public library access manual that explained all this?

Like James Earl Ray planned his escape route on his own as well?

Extremely uneducated and poor petty thief Ray had never traveled out of the country in his life. But after MLK he dons suits he never wore in his life. He gets a fake passport made up. He's got good money on him. He's already made a flight and was on his way to Europe?

International travel takes a lot different knowledge than simply running bootleg moonshine in the Kentucky backwoods.

Ray didn't plan and finance all this on his own. It was beyond his lifetime experience habits, knowledge and financial means.

So who set up Ray's escape plan and paid him more money than he ever had in his life?

 

 

 

It's important to keep in mind LHO got in as a tourist with a limited visa.

If you had the money for the trip (even if it was the total of your life savings),  it wasn't that hard to get in.

Of course, as a tourist that is, and the Intourist guides would be on your back all-the-way watching you closely.

Intourist even had offices in the USA (and a bunch of other countries), they made tourist posters, the works. Basically they were a travel-agency.  They were also KGB of course, I guess that was mandatory if you wanted to work outside the USSR.

We don't know if/when Oswald visited such an office, but during his time in Japan he could have gotten the necessary information imo

https://www.rbth.com/travel/330988-foreign-tourists-soviet-union

 

 

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

3 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

It's important to keep in mind LHO got in as a tourist with a limited visa.

If you had the money for the trip (even if it was the total of your life savings),  it wasn't that hard to get in.

Of course, as a tourist that is, and the Intourist guides would be on your back all-the-way watching you closely.

Intourist even had offices in the USA (and a bunch of other countries), they made tourist posters, the works. Basically they were a travel-agency.  They were also KGB of course, I guess that was mandatory if you wanted to work outside the USSR.

We don't know if/when Oswald visited such an office, but during his time in Japan he could have gotten the necessary information imo

https://www.rbth.com/travel/330988-foreign-tourists-soviet-union

 

 

 

 

 

Yes.

[Gene Kelly]

On 11/8/2022 at 9:11 PM, David Von Pein said:

Thanks, John. That elephant quip is sure to make me see the "sheep-dipping" light.

 

David

It's absurd that you would contend that Oswald was not being "sheep-dipped".  The purchase of the rifle and handgun is a clear first instance of prior sheep-dipping ... and Ruth Paine was right smack dab in the middle of it.  The summer of 1963 in New Orleans is also telling, if you lay out the various milestones. The Clinton-Jackson incident is clearly an effort to create a false legend for Oswald; as is the McKeown rifle offer, the Odio visit, and the entire Mexico City charade:

Ruth Paine Separates Lee and Marina ... 

• The Oswald’s moved out of their Elsbeth Street apartment on March 3, 1963, to an upstairs apartment several blocks away at 214 West Neely Street.
• Marina invites Ruth Paine to visit her, and they exchange visits in March.
• Allegedly using the name of A. J. Hidell, Oswald orders a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver from Los Angeles on a form which he dated January 27th.  Then, on March 12, he ordered a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago under the name of A. Hidell. 
• Oswald used the name "Alek James Hidell" on identification cards which he likely produced at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. Both weapons are shipped on March 20th.
• Mrs. Paine invites the Oswald’s to dinner and takes them on a picnic on April 20th. When Lee was not present, the two women discuss their respective marital problems, and Marina discloses to Ruth that she is pregnant.
• On April 6th, Oswald is dropped by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall because, in his supervisor's opinion, he allegedly did not get along with his fellow employees.

New Orleans

• Oswald decides to move to New Orleans and on April 24, Ruth drives him to the bus station; he arrives and moves in with his aunt Lillian Murret.
• On May 9, Oswald completes an application for employment with William Reily Company; his employment at Reily lasts until July 19th, when he was let go.
• Marina leaves Dallas on May 10th and arrives on the 11th with Mrs. Paine, who stayed with the Oswald’s for 8 days. On May 14, Mrs. Paine leaves New Orleans to return to her home in Irving.
• Oswald starts a Fair Play for Cuba Committee chapter in New Orleans (of which he is the only member) - a group infested with informants and linked to David Phillips, James McCord and William Harvey.
• During the summer of 1963, Oswald frequents 544 Camp Street, an address on his Fair Play for Cuba literature, and a hub for right-wing, anti-Castro activities centered around the office of Guy Banister, as well as Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Sergio Smith and intelligence-backed Cuban exiles.

FPCC and Leaflets

• Also in the summer of 1963, Kerry Thornley steps into the picture in New Orleans where witnesses saw him with Oswald either in public or at Oswald’s apartment (plus Thornley picked up Fair Play for Cuba flyers for Oswald).
• June 16, 1963: LHO distributes FPCC literature at the Dumaine Street wharf. 
• August 9, 1963: Bringuier confronts LHO when he sees him distributing FPCC literature on Canal Street. A scuffle ensues, and the two are arrested (LHO spends the night in jail). 
• John T. Martin filmed Oswald while visiting New Orleans on August 9, 1963. Fourteen-year-old Jim Doyle shot this same leafleting incident in the 700 block of Canal Street (at which Oswald was arrested for "disturbing the peace"). This incident is not to be confused with Oswald's leafleting activity in front of the International Trade Mart exactly one week later on August 16, during which Oswald, Charles Steele, and an unknown Hispanic-looking guy passed out flyers for about twenty minutes and nobody was arrested.
• August 21st: LHO debates Carlos Bringuier and Ed Butler, members of a right-wing group, on a television program. Participating in the leaflet incidents and appearing on NO television was obvious sheep-dipping, which Oswald had to have understood (though its purpose may have been concealed from him).

Clinton-Jackson

• In early September, Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and Oswald visit the villages of Jackson and Clinton to the north of New Orleans, after the anti-FPCC campaign in New Orleans. Oswald is unaware that he is being set up as one of the patsies. Oswald was first seen in Jackson, about 15 miles east of Clinton. Henry Palmer interviews him (away from the voter rally).
• Two personnel secretaries took Oswald’s application for a job at the East Louisiana State Hospital in Jackson … it appears the idea was to get Oswald's file into the system at the mental hospital, and then have them switched from the employment cabinet to the patient cabinet (his file subsequently disappeared even though it was seen by three people).
• The HSCA took a second look at the Clinton incident. On March 14, 1978, they took the testimony of Clinton town marshal John Manchester who said that he approached the black Cadillac from which Oswald had emerged that summer day in 1963 and, acting as the town's law enforcement officer, instructed the driver to identify himself and to produce his driver's license, The driver gave his name as "Clay Shaw from the International Trade Mart" and produced a driver's license which matched.
• The HSCA took John Manchester's testimony in "Executive Session" and kept this information secret from the American public for sixteen years.

McKeown Rifle Offer

• On a Saturday morning in late September, two men arrived at McKeown's house. One man introduced himself as Lee Oswald (his friend was called Hernandez). Oswald said he was willing to pay $10,000 for four rifles, 300 Savage automatics and a telescopic sight. McKeown refused as he thought he was being set-up

Mexico City Charade

• September 17th: LHO obtains a tourist card good for one visit to Mexico City from the Mexican consulate in NOLA.
• September 20th: Ruth visits the Oswalds, and Marina decides to return with Ruth for the birth of the baby; on September 23rd, both of them leave for Irving.
• September 25: LHO collects an unemployment check of $33 and leaves New Orleans by bus where the Mexico City charade begins.  He allegedly takes three separate bus trips: leaving Houston early on the morning of the 26th and arriving in Nuevo Laredo on the Mexican border that afternoon; leaving Nuevo Laredo an hour or so later and arriving in Mexico City on the 27th.
• Oswald then registers at a hotel and makes his first visits to the Soviet and Cuban diplomatic compounds (where he was likely impersonated)
• Meanwhile, someone is laying the trail of an Oswald impostor going through north Louisiana in the fall of 1963 doing unforgettable things like walking out of saloons without paying a bill and arguing with other patrons.

Sivia Odio Visit ... return to Dallas

• Silvia Odio receives a visit in Dallas on Friday September 27th; two individuals along with Oswald, one named "Leopoldo" with an odd forehead, doing the speaking, and seeking written letters of recommendation.  Silvia observed Leopoldo's companion Angelo sitting in the front passenger seat of the car as they left.
• “Leopoldo” (likely Bernardo de Torres) phoned Odio the next day to tell her how “Leon” had talked about the need to murder President Kennedy, and that Leon” is “kind of nuts.”. Notably, the CIA did not allow the HSCA to ask de Torres (who later infiltrated Garrison’s investigation) questions about his activities prior to the assassination.
• Oswald returns to Dallas on October 4th (after an alleged failed attempt to go to Cuba or return to the Soviet Union) with no job, no money. 
• Marina (eight months pregnant) is living in suburban Irving at the home of Ruth Paine, who only allows Lee to visit them with her and Marina’s approval.

Employment at TSBD

• On the morning of October 14th, Ruth and Marina were having coffee at a neighbor’s house, which leads to Lee's finding work at the Book Depository. Just a week before, Oswald almost got a job as a typesetter trainee at a printing company ... far from what would be the motorcade route.
• October 15: Oswald takes a job at the Book Depository as a clerk (with William Shelley as his supervisor).
• November 19: The Dallas Times Herald publishes the schedule and route of JFK's upcoming visit to Dallas.

There is simply no way that Lee Oswald ends up at the Book Depository by random happenstance. 

Gene 

[David Von Pein]

13 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

It's absurd that you would contend that Oswald was not being "sheep-dipped".  The purchase of the rifle and handgun is a clear first instance of prior sheep-dipping ... and Ruth Paine was right smack dab in the middle of it.

Bulls**t. You don't have a speck of proof to back up your above speculation....and you damn well know it.

Plus, if you think Ruth Paine was part of some plot to "plant" LHO in the TSBD, then you have no choice but to bring Linnie Mae Randle into the plot too.

Are you sure you want to do that, Gene?

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by David Von Pein

[James DiEugenio]

That is an excellent chronicle Gene.  I could not have done better myself.

[Gene Kelly]

8 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Bulls**t. You don't have a speck of proof to back up your above speculation....and you damn well know it.

Plus, if you think Ruth Paine was part of some plot to "plant" LHO in the TSBD, then you have no choice but to bring Linnie Mae Randle into the plot too.

Are you sure you want to do that, Gene?

 

David

I realize that Oswald is an enigma, and there are many views of what he was up to (witting or not).  But there has been quite a lot of legitimate research into his young life ... it's actually been under a microscope for more than 50 years now.  So, all of those milestones I mention (in the 9-month period of March-November 1963) are well-recorded and independently substantiated.  All that you have to do is connect the dots and form your own conclusion.  

What I didn't include is the years prior to 1963. The Paines moved to Irving Texas in September 1959, at the same time that Oswald was defecting to the USSR.  Bill Simpich has done some good work in analyzing this period, stating that the ostensible reason was for Michael to work at Bell Helicopter ... but the timing was remarkable. Simpich points out that it was the only weekend that Oswald spent in Irving between 1956 to 1962.  While he believes that the Paines were being used or manipulated themselves (likely by Allen Dulles), they were certainly up to something.    

Michael and Ruth moved to the Dallas suburb of Irving in 1959, during the same week that Oswald came to visit his mother in Irving before he left for the USSR. When Oswald came back to the area in 1962, the Paines were still there. It was like they had been waiting for him.

Wittingly or not, the Paines were now in an ideal locale to assist Oswald, particularly if his trip to the USSR was unsuccessful.  When he returned to the US, Oswald sought out Peter Gregory, a so-called "oil consultant" who had immigrated from Russia in 1923.  It seems that everyone now wanted to learn Russian from Marina ... Gregory had his son Paul take Russian lessons from her (a storyline that Ruth will later use). Notably, Peter Gregory and Max Clark later assisted the Secret Service in translating a lengthy interrogation of Marina after the assassination.

Fast forward to early 1963, Ruth Paine met the Oswalds and George de Mohrenschildt at a party held by Everett Glover on February 22, 1963.  Ruth was introduced to Marina because Glover knew that she was studying the Russian language. Shortly afterwards, Ruth asked Marina to live with her so that she could "improve her Russian".  Michael and Ruth then ostensibly split up and were living in different houses.  Ruth's claim that she wanted to improve her Russian (as a reason to take in Marina) rings hollow to me. Despite Ruth’s years of Russian study, her Middlebury roommate described Ruth’s Russian as “very poor”. Ruth went so far as to tutor one young student in Russian during 1963.  But notably, there is no evidence that she continued her study of Russian after Lee Oswald’s death.

You are entitled to your opinion - one that I won't try to change, and respect - but it is difficult for me to accept all of this as innocent happenstance.  

Gene

[John Cotter]

10 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

David

It's absurd that you would contend that Oswald was not being "sheep-dipped".  The purchase of the rifle and handgun is a clear first instance of prior sheep-dipping ... and Ruth Paine was right smack dab in the middle of it.  The summer of 1963 in New Orleans is also telling, if you lay out the various milestones. The Clinton-Jackson incident is clearly an effort to create a false legend for Oswald; as is the McKeown rifle offer, the Odio visit, and the entire Mexico City charade:

Ruth Paine Separates Lee and Marina ... 

• The Oswald’s moved out of their Elsbeth Street apartment on March 3, 1963, to an upstairs apartment several blocks away at 214 West Neely Street.
• Marina invites Ruth Paine to visit her, and they exchange visits in March.
• Allegedly using the name of A. J. Hidell, Oswald orders a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver from Los Angeles on a form which he dated January 27th.  Then, on March 12, he ordered a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago under the name of A. Hidell. 
• Oswald used the name "Alek James Hidell" on identification cards which he likely produced at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall. Both weapons are shipped on March 20th.
• Mrs. Paine invites the Oswald’s to dinner and takes them on a picnic on April 20th. When Lee was not present, the two women discuss their respective marital problems, and Marina discloses to Ruth that she is pregnant.
• On April 6th, Oswald is dropped by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall because, in his supervisor's opinion, he allegedly did not get along with his fellow employees.

New Orleans

• Oswald decides to move to New Orleans and on April 24, Ruth drives him to the bus station; he arrives and moves in with his aunt Lillian Murret.
• On May 9, Oswald completes an application for employment with William Reily Company; his employment at Reily lasts until July 19th, when he was let go.
• Marina leaves Dallas on May 10th and arrives on the 11th with Mrs. Paine, who stayed with the Oswald’s for 8 days. On May 14, Mrs. Paine leaves New Orleans to return to her home in Irving.
• Oswald starts a Fair Play for Cuba Committee chapter in New Orleans (of which he is the only member) - a group infested with informants and linked to David Phillips, James McCord and William Harvey.
• During the summer of 1963, Oswald frequents 544 Camp Street, an address on his Fair Play for Cuba literature, and a hub for right-wing, anti-Castro activities centered around the office of Guy Banister, as well as Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Sergio Smith and intelligence-backed Cuban exiles.

FPCC and Leaflets

• Also in the summer of 1963, Kerry Thornley steps into the picture in New Orleans where witnesses saw him with Oswald either in public or at Oswald’s apartment (plus Thornley picked up Fair Play for Cuba flyers for Oswald).
• June 16, 1963: LHO distributes FPCC literature at the Dumaine Street wharf. 
• August 9, 1963: Bringuier confronts LHO when he sees him distributing FPCC literature on Canal Street. A scuffle ensues, and the two are arrested (LHO spends the night in jail). 
• John T. Martin filmed Oswald while visiting New Orleans on August 9, 1963. Fourteen-year-old Jim Doyle shot this same leafleting incident in the 700 block of Canal Street (at which Oswald was arrested for "disturbing the peace"). This incident is not to be confused with Oswald's leafleting activity in front of the International Trade Mart exactly one week later on August 16, during which Oswald, Charles Steele, and an unknown Hispanic-looking guy passed out flyers for about twenty minutes and nobody was arrested.
• August 21st: LHO debates Carlos Bringuier and Ed Butler, members of a right-wing group, on a television program. Participating in the leaflet incidents and appearing on NO television was obvious sheep-dipping, which Oswald had to have understood (though its purpose may have been concealed from him).

Clinton-Jackson

• In early September, Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and Oswald visit the villages of Jackson and Clinton to the north of New Orleans, after the anti-FPCC campaign in New Orleans. Oswald is unaware that he is being set up as one of the patsies. Oswald was first seen in Jackson, about 15 miles east of Clinton. Henry Palmer interviews him (away from the voter rally).
• Two personnel secretaries took Oswald’s application for a job at the East Louisiana State Hospital in Jackson … it appears the idea was to get Oswald's file into the system at the mental hospital, and then have them switched from the employment cabinet to the patient cabinet (his file subsequently disappeared even though it was seen by three people).
• The HSCA took a second look at the Clinton incident. On March 14, 1978, they took the testimony of Clinton town marshal John Manchester who said that he approached the black Cadillac from which Oswald had emerged that summer day in 1963 and, acting as the town's law enforcement officer, instructed the driver to identify himself and to produce his driver's license, The driver gave his name as "Clay Shaw from the International Trade Mart" and produced a driver's license which matched.
• The HSCA took John Manchester's testimony in "Executive Session" and kept this information secret from the American public for sixteen years.

McKeown Rifle Offer

• On a Saturday morning in late September, two men arrived at McKeown's house. One man introduced himself as Lee Oswald (his friend was called Hernandez). Oswald said he was willing to pay $10,000 for four rifles, 300 Savage automatics and a telescopic sight. McKeown refused as he thought he was being set-up

Mexico City Charade

• September 17th: LHO obtains a tourist card good for one visit to Mexico City from the Mexican consulate in NOLA.
• September 20th: Ruth visits the Oswalds, and Marina decides to return with Ruth for the birth of the baby; on September 23rd, both of them leave for Irving.
• September 25: LHO collects an unemployment check of $33 and leaves New Orleans by bus where the Mexico City charade begins.  He allegedly takes three separate bus trips: leaving Houston early on the morning of the 26th and arriving in Nuevo Laredo on the Mexican border that afternoon; leaving Nuevo Laredo an hour or so later and arriving in Mexico City on the 27th.
• Oswald then registers at a hotel and makes his first visits to the Soviet and Cuban diplomatic compounds (where he was likely impersonated)
• Meanwhile, someone is laying the trail of an Oswald impostor going through north Louisiana in the fall of 1963 doing unforgettable things like walking out of saloons without paying a bill and arguing with other patrons.

Sivia Odio Visit ... return to Dallas

• Silvia Odio receives a visit in Dallas on Friday September 27th; two individuals along with Oswald, one named "Leopoldo" with an odd forehead, doing the speaking, and seeking written letters of recommendation.  Silvia observed Leopoldo's companion Angelo sitting in the front passenger seat of the car as they left.
• “Leopoldo” (likely Bernardo de Torres) phoned Odio the next day to tell her how “Leon” had talked about the need to murder President Kennedy, and that Leon” is “kind of nuts.”. Notably, the CIA did not allow the HSCA to ask de Torres (who later infiltrated Garrison’s investigation) questions about his activities prior to the assassination.
• Oswald returns to Dallas on October 4th (after an alleged failed attempt to go to Cuba or return to the Soviet Union) with no job, no money. 
• Marina (eight months pregnant) is living in suburban Irving at the home of Ruth Paine, who only allows Lee to visit them with her and Marina’s approval.

Employment at TSBD

• On the morning of October 14th, Ruth and Marina were having coffee at a neighbor’s house, which leads to Lee's finding work at the Book Depository. Just a week before, Oswald almost got a job as a typesetter trainee at a printing company ... far from what would be the motorcade route.
• October 15: Oswald takes a job at the Book Depository as a clerk (with William Shelley as his supervisor).
• November 19: The Dallas Times Herald publishes the schedule and route of JFK's upcoming visit to Dallas.

There is simply no way that Lee Oswald ends up at the Book Depository by random happenstance. 

Gene 

Great stuff Gene.

[Gene Kelly]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

That is an excellent chronicle Gene.  I could not have done better myself.

Thanks Jim. 

The Paines simply fascinate me, and not just because of their proximity to the Oswalds.  They have local relevance for me, as a Philadelphia native, and I am familiar with many of the locations that Ruth and Michael frequented, including where they were married. The Providence Friends Meetinghouse - which I have been to - is a Historic Quaker meeting house on North Providence Road in Media, Delaware County, Pennsylvania. The meeting house and adjoining burial grounds (no longer used) were deeded in 1935. In 1955, Providence Monthly Meeting became part of what is still an active worship center today.

Michael Paine spent two years at Harvard before transferring to Swarthmore; he left after a year. Ruth studied at Antioch College in her home state of Ohio. After a two-year courtship, she and Michael married at Media Friends Meeting, just down the road from Swarthmore College, on December 28, 1957.  Ruth’s correspondence, and related materials are found in the Ruth Paine Hyde Papers on Marina Oswald, RG5/109, a permanent collection of Swarthmore’s Friends Historical Library donated by Paine to the College in 1985.  Here is what the college bulletin states:

“The endlessly probed story of JFK’s assassination isn’t complete without Ruth and Marina. Their papers at FHL can be read as a tiny beacon in this chapter of American history—a light illuminating the Quaker ideals of community and friendship—or as a complicating shade hinting at a darker truth. Whatever conclusion readers come to, these files, housed forever on Swarthmore’s campus, are fascinating reading”.

Gene

[Gene Kelly]

Just now, John Cotter said:

Great stuff Gene.

Thanks John ... like many, I have tried to unravel the enigma that is Lee Oswald.  Was he a doppelganger (and John Armstrong's theory), was he witting (or just used), did he work for Customs and/or the FBI as an informant, why did he defect (and return with Marina)?   Richard Nagell's observations.  

While there are many views on his Bonafide's, his short life has been meticulously studied and is well-chronicled.    

Gene

[Denny Zartman]

Great summary, @Gene Kelly . I'd also add the Parrot Jungle incident as an obvious sheepdipping operation.

[Denny Zartman]

"But... but... Linnie Mae Randle..."

It seems like some folks are the types who watch a nightclub magician do a card trick and wonder if they're seeing actual magic.

The CIA does sophisticated surveillance and intelligence gathering around the world, but finding out where the neighbors worked is some sort of mission impossible.

[Gene Kelly]

Thanks Denny.  I started pulling this list of milestones a week or so ago, but it kept growing.   There is more to add, like the incidents in the weeks prior to the assassination at the Bolton Ford dealership, the shooting range, etc. Plus, the paramilitary sightings at Lake Pontchartrain on the property of William McLaney.  I am still compiling this list, but the Parrot Jungle anecdote is telling (similar to the Odio visit).  The FBI issued reports on it, and it's been highlighted by Larry Hancock:

Mrs. Lillian Spingler of Miami stated that she is employed as a clerk in the gift shop at the Parrott Jungle, a tourist attraction located in the Southwest section of Miami. In approximately the first week of November and very probably on November 1, 1963, on a Friday afternoon about 2:30 p.m., that a male whom she assumed was probably a Cuban approached her at her counter in the gift shop at the Parrot Jungle and asked her for a piece of paper. He remarked to her that he obtained much more knowledge from reading the newspapers than the average person because he reads every line and in between the lines. 

She felt that this individual was seeking attention, and although the store was empty at the time, she did not wish to give him any more time because he was a bit loud in his speech, and the manager of the gift shop does not want the clerks to engage in too much conversation with the visitors. She said that he continued to talk, however, although she did not pay too close attention, until he remarked that he did not like the way the Government of the President and Washington D.C., possibly a statement to the effect he intended to go to Washington, D.C., he stated something to the effect of “shooting between the eyes.” She then realized that he must have been referring to shooting President KENNEDY, and she paid closer attention to him. 

He continued that he had a friend who was smarter than himself who could speak more languages than himself, including Russian. He said this friend was a Marxist and an American citizen, who - 3 – had served in the armed forces. At this point, he mentioned that "Lee" (using the given name for the first and only time, in place of his previous references to his friend), is a sharpshooter, and that he has a very good eye. He further remarked that his friend was brilliant, but that he did not know where his friend was at that time, although he believed he was either in Texas or Mexico. Spingler thought that the unknown Cuban might be a person with a mental problem, and that he was, in fact, referring to General Lee.

Gene

 

[James DiEugenio]

That is a new one for me.

Thanks to you both.

Man, Lee was popular all over the country I guess.  And right on the eve of the JFK murder.

Edited December 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[John Cotter]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

That is a new one for me.

Thanks to you both.

Man, Lee was popular all over the country I guess.  And right on the eve of the JFK murder.

Hear, hear!

[David Von Pein]

8 hours ago, Denny Zartman said:

"But... but... Linnie Mae Randle..."

It seems like some folks are the types who watch a nightclub magician do a card trick and wonder if they're seeing actual magic.

The CIA does sophisticated surveillance and intelligence gathering around the world, but finding out where the neighbors worked is some sort of mission impossible.

But here's something else for the CTers to think about....

Even if we were to make the wholly ridiculous (IMO) and outlandish (IMO) assumption that Ruth Paine was, indeed, working for the CIA in 1963....and if we make the further wholly insane (IMO) assumption that Ruth was Lee Oswald's "handler" in October and November of '63....and if we make the additional absurd (IMO) and preposterous (IMO) assumption that Ruth had a desire to "plant" Oswald in the Book Depository Building before JFK came to Dallas....

It seems to me that the conspiracy theorists still have no choice but to admit and accept the fact that there simply must have been a fair amount of coincidence and happenstance and pure luck that must have accompanied Ruth Paine's CIA-sponsored handiwork with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald getting hired at the TSBD on 10/15/63.

Because without the coincidental fact of Buell Wesley Frazier getting hired at the Depository in September of 1963....and without the coincidental fact that had Ruth Paine living just a half-block down the street from Linnie Mae Randle's house....and without the luck and happenstance that resulted in Roy Truly actually hiring the alleged "patsy" named Lee Oswald....then even if Ruth Paine had been deeply involved in a plot to plant Oswald in the TSBD and frame him for JFK's murder, such a plot couldn't possibly have worked out without all of those examples of luck, happenstance, and ordinary coincidence I just discussed.

Unless....

Conspiracy theorists also want to theorize that all of that "luck", "coincidence", and "happenstance" circulating around those people in Irving, Texas, and at the Book Depository in 1963 (people like Randle, Frazier, and Truly) wasn't really luck and/or happenstance at all.

Do some conspiracists think that Buell Frazier was "planted" in the TSBD also---one month ahead of Oswald's alleged "planting"?

And do some CTers think that the close proximity of the Paine and Randle houses in Irving was deliberately arranged (somehow) by the CIA or other sinister forces who were bent on murdering the President?

And do some conspiracy believers believe that Depository Superintendent Roy S. Truly was somehow forced (or coerced) into hiring Lee Oswald? Or maybe Truly was part of the "CIA" too?

Food for coincidental thought....don't you think?

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by David Von Pein