The Killing Floor

[Pat Speer]

58 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Joe,

Here is a picture of Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce and William Shelley entering a squad car. I don't know exactly the time. 

What is curious to me is that Bonnie Ray Williams first day statement said nothing about being on the sixth floor around 12:00 noon. It was only AFTER Wiliams was interviewed by the FBI did the sixth floor scenario emerge.

Once again, there's nothing suspicious about this. Williams was 19 and black and scared as heck. His subsequent confession and testimony he was on the sixth floor up until 12:15 or so was a HUGE problem for the WC.It was a hindrance, not a help. Here they were pushing this scenario that Oswald was up there for some time building a sniper's nest and putting together his rifle and YIKES Bonnie Ray comes along and throws a spanner in the works. 

I

[Joe Bauer]

10 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Once again, there's nothing suspicious about this. Williams was 19 and black and scared as heck. His subsequent confession and testimony he was on the sixth floor up until 12:15 or so was a HUGE problem for the WC.It was a hindrance, not a help. Here they were pushing this scenario that Oswald was up there for some time building a sniper's nest and putting together his rifle and YIKES Bonnie Ray comes along and throws a spanner in the works. 

I

Exactly.

 

[Gene Kelly]

Pat

This seems a point that can be debated (i.e., why did Truly single out Oswald).  Part of my rationale (perhaps a bias) is that there's suspicion about various TSBD employees (e.g., Shelley, Arce, Dougherty) that persists to this day.  I tend to lump Roy Truly in with that bunch.  Also, it's extraordinary (imho) that Oswald's name surfaced so quickly with the DPD - within 30 minutes of the shots - and was apprehended in the Texas Theater shortly thereafter.  Other than the fact that most agree that Oswald was set up, the DPD arrested the suspect in the crime of the Century in record time ... and Roy Truly set that chain of events in motion.  So, he remains a person of interest to me.

Roy Truly was a long time TSBD employee, employed since 1934. He became superintendent in 1944, and at the time of the assassination was also a member of the board of directors.  So, he was a 56-year-old superintendent, not just a young man like the other workers.  His WC testimony was taken twice; once in March and a second time in May 1964.

Then there's Bill Shelley. In an April 2020 Kennedys and King article by William Weston, "The CIA and the Texas School Book Depository", the author suggests that Shelley - who had been distributing leaflets in New Orleans with Oswald- was a CIA operative.  He also relates Shelley’s claim to a Lubbock journalist (Elzie Dean Glaze) admitting his association with the CIA, indicating a double life. And having a double life would not have made Shelley unique among the people who worked at the book depository ... Weston highlights collateral military, law enforcement, or intelligence affiliations for TSBD principals Roy Truly, Jack Cason, Joe Bergin, Sr. and Joe Molina,

Weston points out that on November 22nd, there were 69 people working in the building at 411 Elm Street (33 for the TSBD and 46 for the publishers). But their move into the building only took place a few months before the assassination. In fact, Truly told the FBI that the Book depositary occupied the building at 411 Elm Street for only a few months (their previous address was 501 Elm Street on the first floor of the Dal-Tex building) ... prior to this time, the building was occupied by a wholesale grocery company. Weston suggests that occupying the building in summer of 1963 was a first step in a planning stage of the assassination, including having people inside the TSBD as assets. 

Furthermore, conditions at the TSBD changed dramatically after the assassination; new security officers appeared, employees were warned not to discuss the assassination with outsiders, and all visitors to the building had to cleared with Roy Truly. Weston found that Roy Truly was, up to the time of his death in 1985, continuously frightened by "federal authorities" and his wife Mildred refused to talk about the assassination even with members of her own family.  Oliver Stone later uncovered information that Truly was not being paid directly through the TSBD in 1963.

The plot thickens ... Jerry Rose authored an article called “Important to Hold that Man” in which he states that there were at least 14 people missing from the building at the time; and they would not return until 1:30 pm (including Charles Givens).  In that same article Rose writes that Shelly was one of the building employees who later identified Oswald for the police when he was brought into the station. Therefore, I am wary of the fact that Truly confirms Oswald's absence with the dubious Mr. Shelley, who was Oswald's supervisor for six weeks. At the time of the assassination, Shelley was in his 16th year at the TSBD (begun in 1945). According to his WC testimony, after graduating from high school he “worked in defense plants a little bit during the war" before working at the Book Depository.  Many believe that Shelley was CIA. And before going up the stairs to the roof, Truly had paused to tell Shelley to guard the stairs and elevators to make sure no one uses them:

BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?  TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn’t with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn’t there … (10 or 12 minutes earlier, in the lunchroom).  I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he said “No.”

Truly stated that around 1:05 pm he "discovered Oswald wasn’t there" and called the warehouse to get his name and Irving address ... he goes out of his way to get Oswald's address:

TRULY. That’s right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn’t among the other workers.

He then immediately informs Chief Lumpkin, who then accompanies him to the sixth floor to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing (along with Oswald's telephone number, and his Irving address: 

BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address? TRULY. I think it was immediately … after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Chief Lumpkin. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back, and he went ahead and told them a few things-it could have been 2-4 minutes.  And then he came to me and said, “All right, let’s go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this.”

In summary, something is fishy about Truly's immediate focus upon Lee Oswald - one of 69 people that worked in the building - that fateful day...

Gene

 

[Pat Speer]

10 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Pat

This seems a point that can be debated (i.e., why did Truly single out Oswald).  Part of my rationale (perhaps a bias) is that there's suspicion about various TSBD employees (e.g., Shelley, Arce, Dougherty) that persists to this day.  I tend to lump Roy Truly in with that bunch.  Also, it's extraordinary (imho) that Oswald's name surfaced so quickly with the DPD - within 30 minutes of the shots - and was apprehended in the Texas Theater shortly thereafter.  Other than the fact that most agree that Oswald was set up, the DPD arrested the suspect in the crime of the Century in record time ... and Roy Truly set that chain of events in motion.  So, he remains a person of interest to me.

Roy Truly was a long time TSBD employee, employed since 1934. He became superintendent in 1944, and at the time of the assassination was also a member of the board of directors.  So, he was a 56-year-old superintendent, not just a young man like the other workers.  His WC testimony was taken twice; once in March and a second time in May 1964.

Then there's Bill Shelley. In an April 2020 Kennedys and King article by William Weston, "The CIA and the Texas School Book Depository", the author suggests that Shelley - who had been distributing leaflets in New Orleans with Oswald- was a CIA operative.  He also relates Shelley’s claim to a Lubbock journalist (Elzie Dean Glaze) admitting his association with the CIA, indicating a double life. And having a double life would not have made Shelley unique among the people who worked at the book depository ... Weston highlights collateral military, law enforcement, or intelligence affiliations for TSBD principals Roy Truly, Jack Cason, Joe Bergin, Sr. and Joe Molina,

Weston points out that on November 22nd, there were 69 people working in the building at 411 Elm Street (33 for the TSBD and 46 for the publishers). But their move into the building only took place a few months before the assassination. In fact, Truly told the FBI that the Book depositary occupied the building at 411 Elm Street for only a few months (their previous address was 501 Elm Street on the first floor of the Dal-Tex building) ... prior to this time, the building was occupied by a wholesale grocery company. Weston suggests that occupying the building in summer of 1963 was a first step in a planning stage of the assassination, including having people inside the TSBD as assets. 

Furthermore, conditions at the TSBD changed dramatically after the assassination; new security officers appeared, employees were warned not to discuss the assassination with outsiders, and all visitors to the building had to cleared with Roy Truly. Weston found that Roy Truly was, up to the time of his death in 1985, continuously frightened by "federal authorities" and his wife Mildred refused to talk about the assassination even with members of her own family.  Oliver Stone later uncovered information that Truly was not being paid directly through the TSBD in 1963.

The plot thickens ... Jerry Rose authored an article called “Important to Hold that Man” in which he states that there were at least 14 people missing from the building at the time; and they would not return until 1:30 pm (including Charles Givens).  In that same article Rose writes that Shelly was one of the building employees who later identified Oswald for the police when he was brought into the station. Therefore, I am wary of the fact that Truly confirms Oswald's absence with the dubious Mr. Shelley, who was Oswald's supervisor for six weeks. At the time of the assassination, Shelley was in his 16th year at the TSBD (begun in 1945). According to his WC testimony, after graduating from high school he “worked in defense plants a little bit during the war" before working at the Book Depository.  Many believe that Shelley was CIA. And before going up the stairs to the roof, Truly had paused to tell Shelley to guard the stairs and elevators to make sure no one uses them:

BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?  TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn’t with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn’t there … (10 or 12 minutes earlier, in the lunchroom).  I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he said “No.”

Truly stated that around 1:05 pm he "discovered Oswald wasn’t there" and called the warehouse to get his name and Irving address ... he goes out of his way to get Oswald's address:

TRULY. That’s right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn’t among the other workers.

He then immediately informs Chief Lumpkin, who then accompanies him to the sixth floor to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing (along with Oswald's telephone number, and his Irving address: 

BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address? TRULY. I think it was immediately … after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Chief Lumpkin. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back, and he went ahead and told them a few things-it could have been 2-4 minutes.  And then he came to me and said, “All right, let’s go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this.”

In summary, something is fishy about Truly's immediate focus upon Lee Oswald - one of 69 people that worked in the building - that fateful day...

Gene

 

I need some clarification. You write that Oswald's name was being bandied about within 30 minutes. What is your evidence for this? My recollection is that Truly told Fritz of Oswald's MIA status just before Fritz left the building (which was more than an hour after the shooting), and that Fritz did NOTHING about this prior to his arriving at the station. At which point he said we need to pick up this guy Oswald, and was told "No need. We just picked him up at the theater." 

To my recollection no alarm bells went off about Oswald until after he'd emerged as the top suspect in killing Tippit. 

Tippit, after all, was given a vague description of the presumed shooter, based upon the statements of Brennan and perhaps Euins. As far as we know, he was not told to look for Oswald. Correct?

What am I missing?

 

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

31 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Then there's Bill Shelley. In an April 2020 Kennedys and King article by William Weston, "The CIA and the Texas School Book Depository", the author suggests that Shelley - who had been distributing leaflets in New Orleans with Oswald- was a CIA operative. 

>>>>>  He also relates Shelley’s claim to a Lubbock journalist (Elzie Dean Glaze) admitting his association with the CIA, indicating a double life.<<<<<

 

And having a double life would not have made Shelley unique among the people who worked at the book depository ... Weston highlights collateral military, law enforcement, or intelligence affiliations for TSBD principals Roy Truly, Jack Cason, Joe Bergin, Sr. and Joe Molina,

Isn't there is a photo that shows someone who greatly resembles Shelley with Oswald handing out his leaflets in front of the International Trade Mart? Could someone post that photo?

[Guest]

It's in this topic, but I don't think it's going anywhere

Edited October 22, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Matt Allison]

It's pretty funny that there's a pic of the Everly Brothers there; I assume to demonstrate that a lot of men had that hair style back then and thus, no, Bill Shelley wasn't in New Orleans handing out leaflets with Oswald.

[Tony Krome]

On 10/20/2022 at 3:24 PM, Pat Speer said:

Truly then looks around and sees Shelley and tells him to watch the front elevator. He sees Piper and tells him to watch the back door. Truly and Baker then run up the stairs.

The scenario you have described here is Truly being aware that that Baker suspects a gunman at the top of the building, that he's aware of both elevators hanging high, and that they have to take to the stairs.

It follows that there would be a concern that if any of those elevators happened to descend while they were climbing the stairs, it may contain the culprit.

You have suggested this exact situation in that Truly orders Shelley to stand by the elevators, and not to let anyone out.

But you say that Truly sends Shelley to the passenger elevator, and Piper to the rear door. This action effectively leaves the freight elevators unsupervised.

And where is Baker in all this? Is he standing there mute as Truly issues orders that are supposedly made to corner the gunman? Orders that leave the freight elevators wide open on the 1st floor, for your mystery person to emerge from, to avoid Piper by turning to the west entrance.

Your scenario has the appearance of Truly ensuring an unwitnessed escape.

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

The scenario you have described here is Truly being aware that that Baker suspects a gunman at the top of the building, that he's aware of both elevators hanging high, and that they have to take to the stairs.

It follows that there would be a concern that if any of those elevators happened to descend while they were climbing the stairs, it may contain the culprit.

You have suggested this exact situation in that Truly orders Shelley to stand by the elevators, and not to let anyone out.

But you say that Truly sends Shelley to the passenger elevator, and Piper to the rear door. This action effectively leaves the freight elevators unsupervised.

And where is Baker in all this? Is he standing there mute as Truly issues orders that are supposedly made to corner the gunman? Orders that leave the freight elevators wide open on the 1st floor, for your mystery person to emerge from, to avoid Piper by turning to the west entrance.

Your scenario has the appearance of Truly ensuring an unwitnessed escape.

Baker said he wasn't sure if the shots came from the building. He just knew he could get a good look from the roof. Truly said he thought the shots came from the railroad yards. He thought the elevators at the back of the building were locked up on the fifth, and told Shelley to go make sure no one suspicious came out the elevator at the front of the building from where he would have to have assumed the shots were fired, if indeed they were fired from the building. He also tells Piper to guard the back door. He runs with Baker up to the second floor. Baker stops to get a look at Oswald. Truly gives Oswald the OK. They then proceed up to the fifth, take the elevator to the seventh, and go up on the roof. At this point neither of them have reason to suspect Oswald. As Truly comes down moreover he sees Dougherty working and assumes it was Dougherty who rode the elevator down as they ran up. Soon thereafter the Dallas police officers and county sheriffs, who had almost universally raced to the train yards, race into the building, searching for the shooter they assume is hiding in the building. Serious attention is paid to the seventh floor, which is dark and has a small room in the corner. They send out for lights. After 20 minutes or so of this chaos, Mooney finds the sniper's nest on the sixth floor and another 10 minutes or so pass before Fritz comes up and begins the search for the rifle. Boone finds it 10 minutes later. It would only now dawn on Truly that Oswald may have been the shooter. Either he goes looking for him, or is told Oswald is missing, and this alarms him to the extent he tells Fritz. It is more than an hour after the shooting.

 

[Allen Lowe]

11 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Baker said he wasn't sure if the shots came from the building. He just knew he could get a good look from the roof. Truly said he thought the shots came from the railroad yards. He thought the elevators at the back of the building were locked up on the fifth, and told Shelley to go make sure no one suspicious came out the elevator at the front of the building from where he would have to have assumed the shots were fired, if indeed they were fired from the building. He also tells Piper to guard the back door. He runs with Baker up to the second floor. Baker stops to get a look at Oswald. Truly gives Oswald the OK. They then proceed up to the fifth, take the elevator to the seventh, and go up on the roof. At this point neither of them have reason to suspect Oswald. As Truly comes down moreover he sees Dougherty working and assumes it was Dougherty who rode the elevator down as they ran up. Soon thereafter the Dallas police officers and county sheriffs, who had almost universally raced to the train yards, race into the building, searching for the shooter they assume is hiding in the building. Serious attention is paid to the seventh floor, which is dark and has a small room in the corner. They send out for lights. After 20 minutes or so of this chaos, Mooney finds the sniper's nest on the sixth floor and another 10 minutes or so pass before Fritz comes up and begins the search for the rifle. Boone finds it 10 minutes later. It would only now dawn on Truly that Oswald may have been the shooter. Either he goes looking for him, or is told Oswald is missing, and this alarms him to the extent he tells Fritz. It is more than an hour after the shooting.

 

seem strange that Baker goes to the 5th floor and then the 7th but skips the 6th? I don't believe that they were thinking 7th because it was dark and unoccupied. Then why did they go to the 5th? Just to catch the elevator? Could be but in my opinion the whole thing is done to give the 6th floor perpetrators time to get their stuff together, arrange things as needed, and get out.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Allen Lowe

[Tony Krome]

50 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Truly said he thought the shots came from the railroad yards. He thought the elevators at the back of the building were locked up on the fifth, and told Shelley to go make sure no one suspicious came out the elevator at the front of the building from where he would have to have assumed the shots were fired, if indeed they were fired from the building.

Truly knew Baker wanted to get to the roof. In fact Baker thought the roof may have been a gun platform, until he arrived;

Mr. BAKER - I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would have to tiptoe to see over it.

Your scenario has exposed Truly as the person that was responsible for moving Shelley away from an area where he could have seen the culprit emerge from the elevator.

Another problem is that you say Shelley went with Sawyer up the passenger elevator (circa 12:34) Shelley said he then left Dougherty in charge of the elevator. How can Dougherty be in two places at once? You have Truly seeing him at circa 12:37 on the 5th floor in the north-west corner of the TSBD. Sawyer would shortly be meeting Baker by the 4th floor freight elevator circa 12:38, supposedly with Shelley in tow.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Tony Krome

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Allen Lowe said:

seem strange that Baker goes to the 5th floor and then the 7th but skips the 6th? I don't believe that they were thinking 7th because it was dark and unoccupied. Then why did they go to the 5th? Just to catch the elevator? Could be but in my opinion the whole thing is done to give the 6th floor perpetrators time to get their stuff together, arrange things as needed, and get out.

Truly was tired from climbing the stairs. He looked for the elevators on every floor. The first floor one he saw was on the fifth. 

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

Truly knew Baker wanted to get to the roof. In fact Baker thought the roof may have been a gun platform, until he arrived;

Mr. BAKER - I immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up there, and after I got on top I found out that a person couldn't shoot off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would have to tiptoe to see over it.

Your scenario has exposed Truly as the person that was responsible for moving Shelley away from an area where he could have seen the culprit emerge from the elevator.

Another problem is that you say Shelley went with Sawyer up the passenger elevator (circa 12:34) Shelley said he then left Dougherty in charge of the elevator. How can Dougherty be in two places at once? You have Truly seeing him at circa 12:37 on the 5th floor in the north-west corner of the TSBD. Sawyer would shortly be meeting Baker by the 4th floor freight elevator circa 12:38, supposedly with Shelley in tow.

 

OK. The assumption was that if any shots were fired from the TSBD they were fired from the front of the building. Truly thought the freight elevators were locked in place. So he told Shelley to go guard the front elevator. It makes perfect sense. 

[Tony Krome]

26 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

OK. The assumption was that if any shots were fired from the TSBD they were fired from the front of the building. Truly thought the freight elevators were locked in place. So he told Shelley to go guard the front elevator. It makes perfect sense. 

And Dougherty? How is he left guarding the passenger elevator by Shelley if he's on the 5th floor?

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Tony Krome said:

And Dougherty? How is he left guarding the passenger elevator by Shelley if he's on the 5th floor?

Good question.  Especially if Shelly is just coming in the west entrance after perusing the railroad yards.