The Killing Floor

[Pat Speer]

50 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

Pat,

Your argument, like a doughnut, has a big hole in the middle – “circular reasoning” so to speak.

You left out the bit about the sheep-dipping, whereby Oswald was being set up beforehand – the bit that gives the game away.

John.

Not at all. While it seems probable Oswald was picked out as a patsy, he was not picked out as a patsy if and only if he continued working in that building. Are you really saying that if Truly fired Oswald there would have been no shooting? It's clear to me they would have found a way for Oswald to cross paths with Kennedy elsewhere in Dallas, and have changed the location of the shooting. 

I don't see why people are drawn to believing it was planned out in every detail. I mean, think about it. You have a neighborhood bully. He tripped you last Halloween. You want revenge. So you pick out a disguise and follow him around for awhile. And then you see him approaching a kid you don't like who've you've seen him bully. So you race up behind a bush and throw a rock at him just after he passes that kid, knowing he will turn around and attack that kid. 

You had a plan. You watched. You waited. You succeeded. Did the plan revolve around that other kid? No. You had a list in your mind of ten other kids you could use in such a manner. But he was there--right there when you needed him.  Poor kid. Poor Oswald. 

 

[Matt Allison]

25 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

That’s interesting. Matt - is it your view that Oswald randomly got that job and then the plotters decided to make him the patsy?

Oswald got the job at the TSBD before there was any plan for him (or anyone else) to shoot from TSBD.

Plans to kill JFK and blame someone else were 100% in play by early 1963.

The TSBD was not part of those plans.

The Trade Mart was an absolute security nightmare; a disaster waiting to happen. The WH refused to use it, and held their ground until the middle of November.

The TSBD was not part of any plan until the Trade Mart was considered, at minimum, a likely locale for the luncheon.

[Paul Cummings]

24 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Not at all. While it seems probable Oswald was picked out as a patsy, he was not picked out as a patsy if and only if he continued working in that building. Are you really saying that if Truly fired Oswald there would have been no shooting? It's clear to me they would have found a way for Oswald to cross paths with Kennedy elsewhere in Dallas, and have changed the location of the shooting. 

I don't see why people are drawn to believing it was planned out in every detail. I mean, think about it. You have a neighborhood bully. He tripped you last Halloween. You want revenge. So you pick out a disguise and follow him around for awhile. And then you see him approaching a kid you don't like who've you've seen him bully. So you race up behind a bush and throw a rock at him just after he passes that kid, knowing he will turn around and attack that kid. 

You had a plan. You watched. You waited. You succeeded. Did the plan revolve around that other kid? No. You had a list in your mind of ten other kids you could use in such a manner. But he was there--right there when you needed him.  Poor kid. Poor Oswald. 

 

A good plan allows for flexibility.

[Matt Allison]

5 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The depository was not a necessary part of the plot. Never was. If the motorcade went somewhere else, they would have found a way to put Oswald on the parade route. Or, at the airport... Or, at the Trade Mart... There's just too many intangibles.

 

Thank you.

No plotter would have depended upon a motorcade going to the Trade Mart. a location the WH refused to use, and held firm on until a week before the trip.

All the people saying Oswald had to be hired at TSBD in order for the JFKA to happen are not only wrong, they also miss the real reason Oswald got hired at TSBD:

He lived in Dallas, was about to have another kid, and desperately needed a job.

[Ron Bulman]

Going back to Linne Mae Randle telling Ruth of a possible opening at the TSBD.  She sounds evasive on this in her testimony.  "Well I suppose, WE didn't say he might get a job there, It was among one of the places we mentioned, I didn't know there was a job opening.

Maybe the suggestion to Ruth came from elsewhere as well.

 Mrs. RANDLE. Well, they had--it was just general knowledge in the neighborhood that he didn't have a job and she was expecting a baby. Of course. I didn't know where he was or anything. And of course you know just being neighborly and everything, we felt sorry for Marina because her baby was due right away as we understood it, and he didn't have any work, so they said, so it was just--
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Paine told you that Lee didn't have any work?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I suppose. It was just in conversation.
Mr. BALL. Marina didn't take part in the conversation?
Mrs. RANDLE. No. She couldn't. So far as I know, she couldn't speak.
Mr. BALL. You and Mrs. Roberts and Mrs. Paine talked about it?
Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was there anything said then about the Texas School Book Depository as a place he might get a job?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for work. When you live in a place you know some places that someone with, you know, not very much of an education can find work.
So, it was among one of the places that we mentioned. We mentioned several others, and Mrs. Paine said that well, he couldn't apply for any of the jobs that would require driving because he couldn't drive, and it was just in conversation that you might talk just any day and not think a thing on earth about it. In fact, I didn't even know that he had even tried any place that we mentioned.
Mr. BALL. What were some of the other places mentioned?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I remember two of them. Mrs. Roberts entered into the conversation and, of course, she is more familiar with the place than I am. It was Manor Bakeries which was a home delivery service.
Then there was this Texas Gypsum which makes sheet rock and things like that, and we mentioned because Wesley had tried those places that I mentioned those.
Mr. BALL. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there.
Mr. BALL. But did you mention it?
Mrs. RANDLE. But we said he might try over there. There might be work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any previous knowledge that there was any job opening. 

[John Cotter]

2 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Not related to TSBD employment.

Not related to TSBD employment.

Not related to TSBD employment.

Not related to TSBD employment.

And all of the above occurred after he was already hired at TSBD.

No, but I see the blatant flaw in yours: You've got things reversed.

You're saying the sniper's nest was chosen first and then Oswald was placed there.

Backwards, illogical, and completely inconsistent with the facts.

Matt,

They are all relate to the TSBD employment in the most obvious way, namely, the TSBD was where the man they had been sheep-dipping for months worked.

What you seem to be implying is that the conspirators put all that time and effort into sheep-dipping Oswald (sheep-dipping that was clearly related to the planned JFKA) without ensuring that Oswald would be in a suitable location to be patsified when the JFKA took place – that for example, if the motorcade did not go through Dealey Plaza, some alternative last minute arrangements would have to be cobbled together to achieve the same result.

How would Oswald be patsified if, for example, on a whim he had gone to a different city to get a job? Why would they go to all that trouble and after all that leave so much to chance? That doesn’t make sense.

In your reply to Paul you said, “The Trade Mart was an absolute security nightmare; a disaster waiting to happen. The WH refused to use it, and held their ground until the middle of November.”

This suggests that some powerful entity or entities prevailed on the WH to have the motorcade go through Dealey Plaza, which would seem to corroborate my argument.

[Ron Bulman]

On 11/1/2022 at 6:56 AM, Matt Allison said:

Thanks for this bit of info, Gene. On what day was that conversation?

The White House rejected a lunch at the Trade Mart all the way until November 14th. How could anyone possibly count on the TSBD so far in advance with that situation in effect?

Because the CIA, yes, still Dulles, Angleton and Helms held sway within the upper echelons of the Secret Service.  Douglass Dillon close to Dulles, Secretary of the Treasury, ultimate head of the SS.  The I believe second in command of the SS whose name escapes me at the moment.  It trickled down among likeminded "patriots", to Love Field.   

Edited November 3, 2022 by Ron Bulman

[John Cotter]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

John

Thank you for backing me up. It's good to know that at least one person understands my reasoning. Which I know is solid, but sometimes I fear I am not communicating it well.

 

You're welcome, Sandy. I'd be surprised if anyone found trying to elucidate these deliberately obfuscated matters easy. I certainly don't.

Edited November 2, 2022 by John Cotter

[Paul Brancato]

13 hours ago, John Cotter said:

Matt,

They are all relate to the TSBD employment in the most obvious way, namely, the TSBD was where the man they had been sheep-dipping for months worked.

What you seem to be implying is that the conspirators put all that time and effort into sheep-dipping Oswald (sheep-dipping that was clearly related to the planned JFKA) without ensuring that Oswald would be in a suitable location to be patsified when the JFKA took place – that for example, if the motorcade did not go through Dealey Plaza, some alternative last minute arrangements would have to be cobbled together to achieve the same result.

How would Oswald be patsified if, for example, on a whim he had gone to a different city to get a job? Why would they go to all that trouble and after all that leave so much to chance? That doesn’t make sense.

In your reply to Paul you said, “The Trade Mart was an absolute security nightmare; a disaster waiting to happen. The WH refused to use it, and held their ground until the middle of November.”

This suggests that some powerful entity or entities prevailed on the WH to have the motorcade go through Dealey Plaza, which would seem to corroborate my argument.

I have a question. Why do you think all the sheep dipping of Oswald was related to planning an assassination? Painting him as pro Castro leftist had other intelligence uses. 

[Guest]

In the case of a conspiracy, and if there were other shooters, was LHO's part 100% indispensable ?   Would a conspiracy depend on one, and only one, shooter ?

Much of this is almost sounding like P1 (or T1 if you like) was (framing) LHO and not (killing) K.

To me, there was a rather obvious overkill on the framing part of LHO, even to the level of being counterproductive (and ridiculous, cfr shooting range....).    After all, he did go to Russia, he was on TV, why o why did it need to be way much more than that...

There is a problem...

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[John Cotter]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

I have a question. Why do you think all the sheep dipping of Oswald was related to planning an assassination? Painting him as pro Castro leftist had other intelligence uses. 

Paul,

My post could reasonably be interpreted as you have interpreted it, though I didn’t state unequivocally and explicitly that all the sheep dipping related to planning the JFKA. Nonetheless, I should have been more precise in what I said.

I think it’s clear from the later sheep dipping incidents in November that they related directly to the JFKA. I’m referring to the firing range incident, the car showroom incident (“Oswald” saying he would be getting money soon), the airfield incident and the parking lot incident cited by Matt. There is also the Odio incident in late September.

More generally, I was mainly following James Douglass’s reasoning, as illustrated in the following paragraph in his book (p 179) about the Mexican caper:

“On the day after the CIA's deceptive advisory memo to the FBI [the memo sent on 10th October], Oswald (or an impersonator) stood in line to get his tourist card from the Mexican consulate in New Orleans. Immediately ahead of him was CIA agent William Gaudet, who had worked secretly for the agency for more than twenty years. Gaudet then went to Mexico at the same time as Oswald. Oswald, or his stand-in, was again being shepherded by the CIA. As we have seen, the CIA then proceeded to record Oswald's communications with the Cuban and Soviet consulates. The evident purpose was not so much to discredit the Fair Play for Cuba committee (the CIA's false story to the FBI) as to identify Oswald with Cuba and the Soviet Union, in order to scapegoat all three together in the president's upcoming murder.”

Someone once said that every psyop has at least two objectives, such as those mentioned in the final sentence quoted above. At what point in time the latter objective became the main or only one is not clear.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

I have a question. Why do you think all the sheep dipping of Oswald was related to planning an assassination? Painting him as pro Castro leftist had other intelligence uses. 

Indeed, but, one being used for multiple goals causes problems, there is a high risk of exposure (especially with LHO...) and as such blowing the case (or both).     

[Gene Kelly]

55 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I have a question. Why do you think all the sheep dipping of Oswald was related to planning an assassination? Painting him as pro Castro leftist had other intelligence uses. 

Paul:

How does one explain Oswald ostensibly taking a shot at General Walker in April ... what did that have to do with intelligence and/or Cuba?

How does one explain what Shaw and Ferrie were doing with Oswald in Clinton and the East Louisiana State Hospital?  That had nothing to do with "intelligence" ... and everything to do with painting the patsy as a mentally unstable person. 

How does one explain the visit of "Leon" to Sylvia Odio in late September, characterized as a former Marine, expert marksman, and kind of "nuts" by claiming “we Cubans, we did not have the guts because we should have assassinated Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs”. 

How does one explain the incidents leading up to the assassination including his test-drive at a car dealership in Dallas and an episode at a shooting range ... it appears that the only intelligence use of Oswald was as a scapegoat for JFK's murder, tied to a "Communist" (the bogeyman of the Cold War).  

Gene

[Joe Bauer]

Some thoughts.

Based on what we know of Lee Oswald, he was very unsatisfied with most of the jobs he found upon returning back to the states and especially in 1963.

The map photography related job seemed to be his favorite. The metal fabricating one the physically hardest and dirtiest.

He hated his coffee machine cleaning job at Reily's Coffee and was so neglectful in his duties there they fired him.

Lee goes on unemployment for a time in New Orleans. This frees him to have fun doing political activities like passing out leaflets downtown. This was also a paid job according to New Orleans attorney Dean Andrews who testified this is what Oswald told him when Andrews confronted Lee ( for an unpaid legal fee debt ) while he was passing out his fliers. 

Lee moves to Oak Cliff. He gets the job at the TXSBD. 

The job is kind of mindless in it's simple book order separating tasks. It pays minimum wage. Lee's fellow workmates aren't exactly the most intellectually stimulating conversationalists and Lee simply reads newspapers on his breaks versus shooting the bull with the guys.

It's reasonable Oswald would have left this mindless, lowest paying, uninteresting co-worker job in a minute if something better came about.

However, the ride sharing situation with Wesley Frazier was a true lucky bonus for Oswald. With Frazier living just a block away from Ruth Paine, Lee had a ride right to Ruth's house after work on Friday! And a ride back to work on Monday morning. And both free of charge!

Surely this lucky ride share convenience helped make the TXSBD job a little more palatable for Lee.

And then, the time comes for Lee to throw everything in his life away.

Lee goes on a suicide and family ruining mission to use his job at the TXSBD as a JFK killing location. The JFK limo motorcade passing right in front of his workplace was just too lucky an opportunity to pass up for his chance to be a changer of history and hopefully be looked upon as a heroic destroyer of one of the great evils afflicting mankind ... the enslavement of the working class by the ruling wealthy elite.

However, Lee didn't want to be a "dead" martyr. He wanted to be a living one. Hence his desperate attempt to avoid being shot and killed after his monumentally world changing act.

His incredible happenstance luck at getting the perfect location job with the perfect isolated shooting perch layout and at the perfect JFK arriving time right down from his perch window was just too much luck to not take advantage of in fulfilling his martyr destiny.

Thank you RP. Thank you Wesley Frazier. Thank you JFK Dallas motorcade planners. Thank you "Assignment Oswald" agent James Hosty for taking your lunch break at a diner during the motorcade. Thank you D.H. BYRD. 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Gene Kelly]

15 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Thank you.

No plotter would have depended upon a motorcade going to the Trade Mart. a location the WH refused to use, and held firm on until a week before the trip.

All the people saying Oswald had to be hired at TSBD in order for the JFKA to happen are not only wrong, they also miss the real reason Oswald got hired at TSBD:

He lived in Dallas, was about to have another kid, and desperately needed a job.

Matt

You forgot to add "... and he didn't drive a car". I'm not trying to poke fun, or even disagree with you, as you seem firm in the belief that Oswald landed in the TSBD by innocent circumstance.  Big picture, I can't give Ruth Paine a free pass on that job referral (or all of the incriminating evidence conveniently left in her garage).  Nor do I believe that Oswald only became a convenient patsy - who just happened to be working in that building - after the motorcade route was established.  

Gene